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Old May 13, 2013, 08:15 AM   #51
arch308
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Good info on the 30-30. I was told that it was originally intended to mean 30 caliber with 30 gns of gunpowder. That was so long ago I can't even remember who told me that.
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Old May 13, 2013, 08:20 AM   #52
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^^^ I heard the same thing and believe that to be correct.
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Old May 13, 2013, 08:31 AM   #53
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[QUOTE
The .30-30 Winchester/.30 Winchester Center Fire/7.62×51mmR cartridge was first marketed in early 1895 for the Winchester Model 1894 lever-action rifle. The .30-30 (thirty-thirty), as it is most commonly known, was the USA's first small-bore, sporting rifle cartridge designed for smokeless powder. In Mexico and Latin America, it is known as the treinta-treinta (Spanish for "30-30").

.30 WINCHESTER SMOKELESS first appeared in Winchester's catalog No. 55, dated August, 1895. As chambered in the Winchester Model 1894 carbine and rifle, it was also known as .30 Winchester Centerfire or .30 WCF. When the cartridge was chambered in the Marlin Model 1893 rifle, rival gunmaker Marlin used the designation .30-30 or .30-30 Smokeless.[9] The added -30 stands for the standard load of 30 grains (1.9 g) of early smokeless powder, according to late-19th century American naming conventions for black powder-filled cartridges. Both Marlin and Union Metallic Cartridge Co. also dropped the Winchester appellation as they did not want to put the name of rival Winchester on their products.

The modern designation of .30-30 Winchester was arrived at by using Marlin's variation of the name with the Winchester name appended as originator of the cartridge, though .30 WCF is still seen occasionally. This designation also probably serves to avoid consumer confusion with the different yet similarly-shaped .30-40 Krag, which has been referred to as ".30 US" and ".30 Army". ][/QUOTE]
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Old May 13, 2013, 08:33 AM   #54
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And now, on to the 410 guage shotgun.
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Old May 13, 2013, 08:35 AM   #55
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Please dont jump on me for this, but didn't the M-14 use an 8 round "clip" that poped out when empty?
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Old May 13, 2013, 08:51 AM   #56
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I believe your thinking of the M-1 Garrand.
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Old May 13, 2013, 08:58 AM   #57
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Quote:
And now, on to the 410 guage shotgun
OR, how about Caliber versus Cartridge?

9mm is a caliber designation; 9x19 is the cartridge name
45 is a caliber designation; 45ACP is a cartridge name

And on and on it goes......... (don't forget engine versus motor)
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Old May 13, 2013, 09:01 AM   #58
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My bad, I was wrong. I did mean the M-1 garand.
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Old May 13, 2013, 09:17 AM   #59
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bigdinfl
9mm is a caliber designation; 9x19 is the cartridge name
45 is a caliber designation; 45ACP is a cartridge name
I don't know where you're getting your cartridge names, but according to SAAMI specs the cartridge names of the ones you're talking about are "9mm Luger" and "45 Automatic".

http://www.saami.org/specifications_...tion/index.cfm
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Old May 13, 2013, 09:46 AM   #60
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I suspect some people here who don't have a problem using the word "clip" when they mean "magazine" don't have any clue what a clip actually is. Just a guess.
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Old May 13, 2013, 10:06 AM   #61
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I think all internet forums have Grammar Nazis and commonly used terms that are not 100% correct that are open to attack.

Many Grammar Nazis attack because they cannot find any good attack in a debate so they did up some grammar to have a shot at. Usually grammar attacks and not considered below the belt so it is like an open target.

A common tactic is see is to start out a post with a grammar attack, "A door handle is for an cupboard, truck door have levers obviously you don't know what you are working on"
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Old May 13, 2013, 10:16 AM   #62
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the M 1 Garand DOES use an 8-round clip. The clip, or enbloc clip, is fed into the rifle's magazine.

When the last round is fired, the clip is ejected so that another loaded clip can be fed into the magazine.



The 9mm is an interesting case, and it's one I frequently use when discussions like this come up.

The "correct" name of the cartridge, if one is going for absolute veracity and doesn't want to subject oneself to various catcalls, is 9mm Parabellum. That is what the cartridge's originator, Georg Luger, called it.

It quickly became know, and accepted, as the 9mm Luger for the pistol in which it was used.

In common European cartridge nomenclature, it is also known as the 9x19mm.

And, finally, because of its current military use, 9mm NATO is also a fourth, accepted name for this particular cartridge.

Yet the egregious executors of exactitude never seem to get stressed when the 9mm Parabellum is incorrectly identified as the 9x19, the 9mm Luger, or the 9mm NATO.
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Old May 13, 2013, 10:18 AM   #63
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In response to what Mike said, I always get a chuckle when I see ammo cases in the military, that are most often marked along the lines 9x19mm NATO.

make everybody mad with that one.
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Old May 13, 2013, 10:19 AM   #64
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"And now, on to the 410 guage shotgun."

It's gauge.


And, it's properly identified as the .410 bore shotgun.

If the gauge system were applied, I believe it would be 67 or some such.
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Old May 13, 2013, 10:39 AM   #65
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Clips and magazines are 2 very different things. 45 Colt and 45 Long Colt are 2 different terms describing the same thing.

These are clips.



They hold cartridges and make it easier to put them into a guns magazine. The magazine is the storage area where ammo is stored until they are fired. Some clips feed directly into a fixed magazine such as a Garand. Other clips can be loaded directly into a detachable magazine such as an AR.

There really is a huge difference between the 2. There should be no reason to use the terms clip and magazine interchangeably. When I hear the word "clip", I see the above photo in my mind. When I hear the term "magazine" I see something very different. When I hear 45 Colt or 45 Long Colt I see the same thing in my mind.
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Old May 13, 2013, 12:18 PM   #66
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when you call shotgun a shotty, a Remington a remmy or a brass frame gun a brassie, well that just shows poor breeding and upbringing and is just rude and crude
This really bothers me! I agree it is just all wrong. Another phrase that bothers me is "packing heat (or a rod)" What are we old TV gangsters?
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Old May 13, 2013, 12:25 PM   #67
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Clips and magazines are 2 very different things. 45 Colt and 45 Long Colt are 2 different terms describing the same thing.
And that's really the difference. Same with 9mm Parabellum, 9mm Luger, 9x19mm, etc., those are all terms describing the same thing. Anybody who confuses 9mm Luger for another cartridge can only blame themselves, whereas if I ask you for a clip and instead you hand me a magazine, you are responsible for the confusion by not knowing the difference.
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Old May 13, 2013, 12:42 PM   #68
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Yet the egregious executors of exactitude never seem to get stressed when the 9mm Parabellum is incorrectly identified as the 9x19, the 9mm Luger, or the 9mm NATO.
Actually, what I deal with is folks who are unsure their gun chambered in 9x19mm will safely shoot ammunition marked 9mm Luger. There's a great deal of confusion on that.

Fun fact: Georg Luger never referred to his loading as "9mm Luger." That was an invention of American ammunition manufacturers to differentiate it from numerous other 9mm cartridges that were around back then.
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Old May 13, 2013, 01:05 PM   #69
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However, a "magazine" and a "clip" are two different things. They are not the same. "Clip" is often used incorrectly to mean "magazine", and you can often figure out what it means in context, but not always. For example: If someone says they need a "clip" for an SKS, do they mean a stripper clip for the original version or a magazine for a modified one? If someone asks for clips for an M4 do they mean magazines or do they mean the stripper clips military ammo comes on?
Sixteen years active duty Army and no one ever got confused or bent out of shape calling a mag a clip. I won't loose an once of sleep one way or another.
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Old May 13, 2013, 01:38 PM   #70
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See, Tom, SEE!

All non-conforming, non-specific, non-standard, non-approved usages MUST be eliminated!

How dare we confuse the noobs!

Never mind the fact that even the clearest concept can confuse someone new to the sport...


"Fun fact: Georg Luger never referred to his loading as "9mm Luger." That was an invention of American ammunition manufacturers to differentiate it from numerous other 9mm cartridges that were around back then."

I've heard that before.

But I don't buy it.

9mm Luger ammo was first loaded in the United States not long after World War I.

I can't even remotely conceive of a reason to "keep things from being confusing," because there were NO other 9mm cartridges in production in the United States at that time...

And wouldn't be until well after World War II.

When Stoeger obtained exclusive rights to market the Luger in the United States in the early 1920s, they trademarked the name Luger as it applied to the gun. More than likely Mauser still owned the copyright on Parabellum at the time, and Stoeger wanted something different, or had to choose something different.

Stoeger may have allowed the trademarked name to be used by the ammunition companies to ensure that people could easily make the connection between the gun and the cartridge.

And that's why we have 9mm Luger ammunition. Not because it was an attempt to avoid confusion with all of the other 9mm cartridges that were being churned out...
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Last edited by Mike Irwin; May 13, 2013 at 03:37 PM.
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Old May 13, 2013, 02:02 PM   #71
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I dunno. I heard it from a guy a long time ago. Couple that with a few assumptions, and it's good enough for the internet, right?

Part of my assumption is that the Bergmann, Steyr, and Browning Short (not to mention .38 ACP) cartridges were around, though I've no idea if they made an impact on the American market at the time.

The problem, and this is really hard for newbies, is that the industry never really laid down standards for naming things. For example, .45-70 indicates a .45" bullet over 70 grains of black powder. Does that mean a .30-06 indicates a .30" bullet over 6 grains of powder? If "caliber" refers to the bore diameter, why does a .38 Special pistol have a .357" bore?

If the industry can't standardize and agree upon consistent nomenclature, it's a bit disingenuous for us to be condescending about the clip vs. magazine thing. I'll generally correct folks if it's necessary or helpful but I'm not going to bark "MAGAZINE" to every passer-by who talks about clips for his 9mm.

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Grammar Samurai frowns upon your dangling preposition.
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Old May 13, 2013, 02:43 PM   #72
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Quote:
Many Grammar Nazis attack because they cannot find any good attack in a debate so they did up some grammar to have a shot at.
Grammar Samurai frowns upon your dangling preposition.
And Conan the Grammarian takes a swipe at the very confusing misspelling of "dig."

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Old May 13, 2013, 03:32 PM   #73
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"Part of my assumption is that the Bergmann, Steyr, and Browning Short (not to mention .38 ACP) cartridges were around, though I've no idea if they made an impact on the American market at the time."

I can answer that...

No.

The 9mm Browning Short, Corto, Kurz, whatever, was sold in the United States as the .380 ACP/CAPH. FN and Colt had an agreement -- FN got Europe, Colt got the United States, and the two wouldn't cross over.

Some 9mm Steyr pistols may have made it into the United States was war trophies, but it would have been an extremely limited number.

The 9mm Bergman didn't make it into the United States in any quantity until after World War II.

Same with the 9mm Mauser.

Same with the 9mm Browning Long.

While there were lots of 9mm cartridges in production world wide at various times in the first few decades of the 20th century -- 9mm Japanese revolver, 9mm Dutch revolver, 9mm Glisinti, 9mm Mars, various earlier black powder pinfire and patent ignition cartridges, plus the ones listed above, the ONLY one that was in production in the United States was the 9mm Parabellum.

American cartridges of nominally 9mm, including the .38 S&W, the .38 Short and Long Colts, the .38 Special, the .357 Magnum, the .38 ACP, the .38 Super, etc., were NEVER marketed or otherwise identified in the United States as 9mm cartridges until well after World War II, when European and Asian 9mms finally started to flow into this country in significant numbers as military surplus. And then it was a case of "Oh, in Europe my .38 Special would be a 9x28R" or some such. It was an interesting tidbit, not a focus for confusion.

Even with all of the surplus coming in, the only way to fire most of these guns was to obtain surplus military ammo, foreign-made commercial ammo (IF it was made), or go the George Nonte cartridge conversion route because American companies never made ammo for these guns.

That's the long way of saying that no avenue of confusion existed.

The 9mm Luger designation was, I'm certain, chosen to identify that ammunition with the guns that Stoeger was importing.

Nothing else.



And no, there never has been a uniform system of nomenclature.

Anywhere.

Probably the most universal system is the European metric system and the old American blackpowder systems.

That's because you had private companies doing the lion's share of cartridge development both in the United States and in Europe, and cartridges were named primarily out of marketing considerations.

It's analogous to automobiles, really. Each company picked the name it wanted.
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Old May 13, 2013, 04:10 PM   #74
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I wouldn't get worked up over "magazine" vs "clip," but at the same time, I would explain the difference if the person misusing the terms were somebody I cared about.

My Garand and my Colt 1917 use clips, so I could show them the difference easily enough.

If one is not a person who is likely to be allowed to shoot one of my firearms, then I will only correct their terminology if asked to do so.
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Old May 13, 2013, 04:39 PM   #75
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It amazes me how after years of hundreds of similar threads on this subject here and on every other gun forum on the internet, some folks still feel the need to post pictures as if none of us knows just what a clip is.........

Does using socially accepted terminology makes gun owners all seem like "ignorant rednecks"? Probably not any more than the constant bickering and arguing.........
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