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Old May 12, 2013, 01:18 AM   #1
vostracker
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Saddle Ring

Question came up around the ol fire pit. What was the purpose of the saddle ring on the lever action saddle ring carbines and such??
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Old May 12, 2013, 06:53 AM   #2
eastbank
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to fasten it to a saddle,i think it realy came into use in the civil war with the short carbines being used by the horse soldiers. eastbank.
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Old May 12, 2013, 09:52 AM   #3
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Nuf' said............




.
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Old May 12, 2013, 09:59 AM   #4
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Yup. The original "one point" sling.

Funny how its a "new" idea, isnt it?
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Old May 12, 2013, 03:29 PM   #5
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I believe the name says it all. A leather thong was tied to the ring to keep the rifle from bouncing out of the scabbard while mounted on horseback.

Note that on a handgun it's called a lanyard ring. Again, descriptive.
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Old May 12, 2013, 04:46 PM   #6
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Nobody's mentioned where on the saddle it connected to.

How 'bout the saddle's horn? Easy and fast to remove as well as put back.
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Old May 12, 2013, 05:30 PM   #7
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Quote:
Nobody's mentioned where on the saddle it connected to.

How 'bout the saddle's horn? Easy and fast to remove as well as put back.
A McClellan didn't have a horn.

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Old May 12, 2013, 07:01 PM   #8
eastbank
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i think the civil war carbines used a single point with large loop over the head and shoulder. eastbank.
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Old May 12, 2013, 07:14 PM   #9
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Nail on the head East Bank.


The "saddle ring" was attached to this:



Which had a wide leather sling attached to it and was carried like so:

http://www.angelfire.com/oh3/civilwa...bine_saber.jpg



My lord Hawg, I'm drooling over that McClellan rig you posted. That'd look real good on my Walker
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Old May 12, 2013, 07:48 PM   #10
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My grandfather gave about $4 for an old McClellan, back in 1940. I rode it some. Pain and agony. McClellan could have given lessons to the Marquis de Sade. Bareback was better.

But don't forget the old Cavalry song, "I've been lonesome in the saddle, since my horse died."
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Old May 12, 2013, 08:58 PM   #11
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IIRC the saddle ring was used mainly to fasten the carbine to the soldier.
Also I read the McClellan saddle was designed more to give comfort to the horse.
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Old May 12, 2013, 09:17 PM   #12
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Gosh, and I always thought a saddle ring was something you got from a hard saddle.
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Old May 13, 2013, 02:50 AM   #13
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Ringing

Thanks everybody. I thought it might be like my Trapdoor carbine with the sling attachment. Just wasnt sure about the lever action carbine.
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Old May 15, 2013, 12:30 AM   #14
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They weren't called "saddle rings" back in the day, they were called "sling rings". They were part of the military use of carbines, hung from the wide sling strap over the shoulder of the trooper, clipped to the gun with the large swivel snap. I believe Winchester installed them as a habit, in hopes of interesting the military in their guns, and they just seemed to hang on for ages, with little practical use other than as a sling point for the extremely few that understood what they were for, and actually chose to use them as such.

Many have the idea that they were to hang a carbine off a saddle horn, but I've never seen a frontier period account of one being used that way, nor have any frontier period artwork shown them being used in that fashion. I knew a guy that tried carrying a Winchester carbine hung from the saddle horn, he lost it on the trail, but was lucky enough to find it a couple miles back when he went to look. He said he never tried it again. Until shown otherwise, I believe it's a fairy tale or legend, not a fact of how they were used back in the day.
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Old May 15, 2013, 12:54 AM   #15
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SIGSHR


IIRC the saddle ring was used mainly to fasten the carbine to the soldier.
Also I read the McClellan saddle was designed more to give comfort to the horse.

Nail...Hammer, its a split back saddle for the comfort of the horse on long rides, not the rider. I refurbish one a year for museums.
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Old May 15, 2013, 03:15 PM   #16
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egor20
IIRC the saddle ring was used mainly to fasten the carbine to the soldier....

This is exactly correct. The military saddles had a "socket" that the carbine rode vertically in behind their right leg (as shown in the picture above), but it was mainly to bear part of the weight, and keep it from flopping around. The sling that went across the soldiers body diagonally was to keep the gun attached to them. If the soldier came off the horse for any reason, his gun was with him. The large roller allowed the snap swivel to move along the sling and didn't interfere with shooting. There are several good pieces of art showing the slings being worn, a few with them being used with the guns attached. One of the former is Frederick Remingtons "A Cavalrymans Breakfast On The Plains". The slings can be seen on several soldiers. They were about 2 1/2" wide black leather with a large buckle.
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Old May 15, 2013, 07:21 PM   #17
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[QUOTE] Gosh, and I always thought a saddle ring was something you got from a hard saddle. [/QUOTE

Go to your room, young man. And wipe that grin off your face!
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Old May 16, 2013, 01:27 PM   #18
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whoa up now

OK, interesting, I know about slings for cav carbines. But since the M94 really didn't see cavalry service (issue anyhow) wouldn't the average horseman loop in on a horn or in the scabbard? If they used the ring at all?

How did the early southwest lawmen typically stow their carbines when on horse. Did they use the ring?

I know absolutely nothing about horses.
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Old May 16, 2013, 09:27 PM   #19
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bamaranger wrote OK, interesting, I know about slings for cav carbines. But since the M94 really didn't see cavalry service (issue anyhow) wouldn't the average horseman loop in on a horn or in the scabbard? If they used the ring at all?

How did the early southwest lawmen typically stow their carbines when on horse. Did they use the ring?

I know absolutely nothing about horses.
Most people used scabbards, though some in earlier times used what was called a California loop, which was an oval of leather, with two slots cut in it, the rifle was wrapped, sort of taco style, in the fold of the loop, the slots hung over the horn. The rifle laid sideways across the riders lap. It was fairly secure, and pretty quick to use. Frederic Remington did several paintings with California loops being used. One was called "Beyond all Surgery" or "Aiding a Comrade". Both the riders on the right and left are using them. Another painting is "Prospecting cattle range". The rider on the left is using a scabbard, the rider on the right is using a California Loop.

There wouldnt be much purpose or practical value to tying a carbine in a scabbard with the ring, the ring would be pretty well buried in the scabbard.

For all the stories of "thats how it was done" about the ring and hanging a carbine off a saddle horn, there doesnt seem to be any actual evidence of them being used that way. If some individual may have upon occasion, it certainly wasn't common. It isn't very secure in any event.

Winchester always hoped to interest the military in their guns. That they put sling rings on them isn't that surprising, even after the days of cavalry being done. They had a screw in magazine end cap in the early 1873 models (cap threaded into the tube). The later 73's and all subsequent models had a cross screw through the tube and cap, but still had a screwdriver slot in the end cap. This served absolutely no purpose other than to confuse would-be gun mechanics into trying to remove it with a screwdriver, and buggering up the slot. It's pretty obvious that it was a different screw threaded through the cap and tube crossways, but somebody always has to see if they can horse them out. This type cap decoration continued into the late 20's or 30's, 50-60 years after the slot had any purpose. So no, it doesnt surprise me in the least that Winchester kept putting sling rings on carbines long after it was apparent that the military wasnt buying their guns.
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Last edited by Malamute; May 16, 2013 at 09:41 PM.
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Old May 19, 2013, 01:23 PM   #20
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The original cavalry carbines used what was called a sling bar, a long rod (2" to 6" depending on the weapon) onto which the sling ring itself was attached. That allowed the ring to slide, giving more flexibility than a simple ring like that on the 94 carbine.

Jim
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Old May 20, 2013, 09:44 PM   #21
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Art Eatman
My grandfather gave about $4 for an old McClellan, back in 1940. I rode it some. Pain and agony. McClellan could have given lessons to the Marquis de Sade. Bareback was better.
The stable where I learned to ride when I was 7-8-ish used some McClellans. Sheer torture. It's a wonder I didn't give up.

I don't for a minute believe the looped-over-the-saddle-horn thing. Without some additional method of holding the carbine in place, I don't think most horses would tolerate it at anything faster than a walk.
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Old May 25, 2013, 11:21 PM   #22
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The saddle ring evolved from the "sling ring" mentioned earlier. Those sling rings were on guns as early as the 18th Century. Remember that in those days guns were single shot muzzle loaders. You discharged and then had to release the carbine so you could draw your saber. Thus the gun was not lost when the cavalryman resorted to cold steel.

Why do we have it nowadays? Tradition (and fun).
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Old May 28, 2013, 03:30 PM   #23
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Not the best but gives and idea of how the sling and ring used.
Attached Images
File Type: jpg cavsgt.jpg (69.2 KB, 29 views)
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Old May 28, 2013, 04:19 PM   #24
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As to the Winchesters, I think they just put the ring on in case anyone wanted to use it for anything, not necessarily with any specific idea of its use, or with any military use of the rifle in mind. I am not sure it would not have been used by civilians. A cowboy or a hunter might well have felt that having the carbine attached to him would be a good idea if the horse ran off while he was dismounted.

Jim
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Old May 30, 2013, 05:31 PM   #25
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About all they do on the Winchesters is make a agrivating rattle. You could use it and a leather thong to tie off the rifle to the saddle scabard to keep it from flying out, this usully results in the thong snagging and deflecting dead tree limbs into your leg,belly or horse though.
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