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Old May 16, 2013, 03:31 AM   #51
ClydeFrog
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Yes...

It shows why you should always key into where a subjects hands & feet are.
Trained people can move quickly or be able to do multiple skills quickly.

CF
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Old May 16, 2013, 05:15 AM   #52
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Holy heck at the speed a precision. Let's us HOPE criminals continue to THINK that they know how to shoot


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With a street value of almost $200K. I think the money was the motivator.

As an aside:

In 1962, President John F. Kennedy signed a proclamation which designated May 15th as Peace Officers Memorial Day. Stay safe.
We were RAID til we lost funding(fed cuts) so I know all too well the money involved...I still view it as a green plant that is not worth the trouble of trying to get involved with.
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Old May 16, 2013, 08:03 AM   #53
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Yes...

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

It shows why you should always key into where a subjects hands & feet are.
Trained people can move quickly or be able to do multiple skills quickly.

CF
If you have a suspect in front of you, can you be watching his hands and feet while at the same time still keeping your head on a swivel and watching the whole area around you? No.

This is a problem in defense training. We are taught to watch things like the hands and feet, especially if we think a person is a threat. We are taught to keep our head on a swivel to know what is going on around us all the time. This leaves a conflict of tasks. If you look around, with a brief glance, you might spot an obvious threat around you, but you may also miss the known potential threat's action to harm you. If you don't look around, you may miss things around you, but are on track to either keep your suspect from taking advantage of your head-on-swivel security distraction or reacting faster by being able to see the start of his action. You have to prioritize your threat environment and you can't do everything all the time. If you have an uncontrolled potential threat in front of you, you darned sure can't be stopped and looking inside every vehicle, under them, behind behinds, trees, etc. and looking for other potential threats while still keeping a watch on the known potential threat...unless you have a team. However, the team needs to act as a time and not as a series of individuals. This group of officers acted as a series of individuals and not as a team.
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Old May 16, 2013, 08:54 AM   #54
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If you have a suspect in front of you, can you be watching his hands and feet while at the same time still keeping your head on a swivel and watching the whole area around you? No.

This is a problem in defense training. We are taught to watch things like the hands and feet, especially if we think a person is a threat. We are taught to keep our head on a swivel to know what is going on around us all the time. This leaves a conflict of tasks. If you look around, with a brief glance, you might spot an obvious threat around you, but you may also miss the known potential threat's action to harm you. If you don't look around, you may miss things around you, but are on track to either keep your suspect from taking advantage of your head-on-swivel security distraction or reacting faster by being able to see the start of his action. You have to prioritize your threat environment and you can't do everything all the time. If you have an uncontrolled potential threat in front of you, you darned sure can't be stopped and looking inside every vehicle, under them, behind behinds, trees, etc. and looking for other potential threats while still keeping a watch on the known potential threat...unless you have a team. However, the team needs to act as a time and not as a series of individuals. This group of officers acted as a series of individuals and not as a team.
Agree no matter how much we train. We can not train for every possible scenario, and even if facing multiple threats we are vulnerable even with keeping adequate situation awareness.

The best way to stay alive is to avoid conflict. We train in the event that escape is no longer an option or our personal life is in danger at home.
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Old May 16, 2013, 09:35 AM   #55
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To me it seems like they had no search warrant and they were just going to "knock and talk"/bully their way into the place. Which is a very common tactic for narcotics agents.

My take on it is these guys got too used to dealing with people that give in cower in a corner and let them have their way. So they got a wake up call.

Why was back up so far away? Why such a small team? Was this possibly a small rouge team that likes to collect unaccounted for money and drugs for personal gain?
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Old May 16, 2013, 09:52 AM   #56
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I totally thought the shooter in the car on the left was an undercover which is why he was ignored. That was a near fatal error not checking the car before trying to conduct the raid.
That's what I thought as well. Just about every SWAT "bust" video I have ever seen on TV the officers visually clear all vehicles on or right near the suspects property. They turned their back on the car without clearing it and the price was a wounded officer. Hopefully LEO's everywhere learn from this and reinforce the importance of clearing vehicles before turning your backs on them.
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Old May 16, 2013, 10:03 AM   #57
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Was this possibly a small rouge team that likes to collect unaccounted for money and drugs for personal gain?
That's not nice to assume. MDPD doesn't take kindly to any rogue actions and they would have been reprimanded and personally thrown under the bus.
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Old May 16, 2013, 10:21 AM   #58
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It may not be nice to assume that, but you can not rule it out. I have seen entire city police departments shut down for the exact things stated in his comment. Hobson City, Alabama and Piedmont, Alabama are two cities that have been investigated and convicted of drug trafficking. Hobson City does not have a PD anymore. Piedmont had budget cuts and extreme damage control to do.
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Last edited by Vanya; May 16, 2013 at 10:57 AM. Reason: cop-bashing.
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Old May 16, 2013, 11:13 AM   #59
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Just a reminder: the topic of this thread is the actions of officers in this situation. We don't do general cop-bashing here. Also, unless we're able to get more information about why there were so few officers on the scene, and what they were there to do, there's not much point in idle speculation.
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Old May 16, 2013, 11:24 AM   #60
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From the article and video shown...this appears to be a no-knock warrant raid.

Which in my opinion should be barred and illegal. As of 2005 there were over 50k of these conducted.
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Old May 16, 2013, 12:33 PM   #61
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Silver00LT, how do you reach this conclusion? According to the article linked in the OP, and also this report, published yesterday, about the testimony of the wounded officer at the bail hearing for the surviving suspect, detectives were conducting a "knock and talk" investigation.

As I said above, we're not going to speculate in this thread, nor are we going to discuss perceived shortcomings of law enforcement in general.
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Old May 16, 2013, 01:15 PM   #62
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Good Guys Won

Bottom line is that the guy they came for is in custody. The guy that attacked them is on the ground. The officer who made that head shot did a fantastic job. I would agree that the car could have easily been checked. The officer who was hit survived and that is the most important thing.

If we all take something away from this it should be that one shot does not stop a gunfight and that center mass hit was well placed.

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Old May 16, 2013, 10:12 PM   #63
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Quote:
If we all take something away from this it should be that one shot does not stop a gunfight and that center mass hit was well placed.
I also take away an observation that courage, strength of will and determination were very nearly enough for one armed gunman to overcome four armed and armored police officers and only the bad guy's lack of tactical skill and marksmanship won the day for the good guys.

And when I see three plainclothes police officers wearing ballistic vests and rushing a house, the first thought that enters my mind is NOT that they are there for tea and scones.
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Old May 17, 2013, 12:04 AM   #64
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Post #53; SEAL VI/DevGru...

Post 53 makes a valid point which is why elite units like ISA, ACE, HRT, BORTAC, DevGru(also known as SEAL Team 6) etc stress selection & training so much.

After the Trident Spear mission in 2011, much media spin was made about the elite SEALs of SEAL Team 6 aka: DevGru or Development Group(a unit name the Navy & SOCOM has modified again).
One of the few selection elements of DevGru made public was how photos of all new unit selectees were placed in a long hallway, SEALs & officers in the unit would walk down & pick who they knew or would think could do well in DevGru.
These tier one level units train constantly and get the best weapons/equipment they can. They plan & train hard because all the members know it's a split second movement or act that can be the difference in some spec ops missions.


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Old May 17, 2013, 08:33 AM   #65
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Bottom line is that the guy they came for is in custody. The guy that attacked them is on the ground. The officer who made that head shot did a fantastic job. I would agree that the car could have easily been checked.
Ah, the wonders of omniscient hindsight! Maybe the car could have been checked, maybe not. What about the other car? Other truck? Bed of the truck? Behind the vehicles? Up in the tree? Roof of the house?

From the video shown, there were a lot of places that a person could have been secreted in the yard. Could all of them be "easily checked" by the officers whilst still doing their job? Could the three officers be checking all nooks and crannies while covering one another (which they should also be doing) and still trying to make contact with the obvious suspect on the porch?

Quote:
And when I see three plainclothes police officers wearing ballistic vests and rushing a house, the first thought that enters my mind is NOT that they are there for tea and scones.
Walking up to the house is now considered to be rushing it?
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Old May 17, 2013, 09:07 AM   #66
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20/20

Quote:
Ah, the wonders of omniscient hindsight!
Yes hindsight is always 20/20 for sure. I am simply saying that the operation ended with desired outcomes save for the one injured officer who did not loose his life prematurely.

That head shot was a tough one for sure.

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Old May 17, 2013, 09:34 AM   #67
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Walking up to the house is now considered to be rushing it?
I would say a gang of men team up in a hidden location and all the sudden..? lets say "converge" on a home could be considered "rushing it".
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Old May 17, 2013, 10:30 AM   #68
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I read most of the comments so I won't dwell on the fact that the officers failed to clear and secure the area they were passing. I know these are not SWAT officers, but with 3 officers going in, 2 of them could have taken the flanks and check the vehicles. I'm sure it was tunnel vision that caused it. The articles clearly state that the officers were performing a "knock and talk" rather than going in with a warrant. Regardless, I believe the other officers should have cleared the areas they were passing and taken a flanking position.

I am not sure if the officers were justified in approaching with weapons drawn, but they should have had their hands on their weapons with all retention devices off. I know many officers have their hands on their weapons when making traffic stops at night. You need every advantage you can get since you will already be behind the reaction curve if the person has a weapon.

Another thing to remember is that we are watching surveillance video from the growers recorder. They could have been monitoring the screen and come out with more weapons. If a couple of guys came out with assault rifles, the officers would not have made it. The officers are also very lucky that the guy in the car did not have more serious fire power such as a full auto weapon.

So basically, in hind sight, from my arm chair quarterback position, I would have had one or two officers approach from the center to do the "knock and talk" while two officers approached from the sides with weapons ready. The officers need to clear and safe the areas they are passing just as they would if they were inside a building where a bad guy could be waiting to ambush them.
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Old May 17, 2013, 06:58 PM   #69
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So basically, in hind sight, from my arm chair quarterback position, I would have had one or two officers approach from the center to do the "knock and talk" while two officers approached from the sides with weapons ready. The officers need to clear and safe the areas they are passing just as they would if they were inside a building where a bad guy could be waiting to ambush them.
I agree and to add to your point, an officer in an over watch/covering position. One man, preferably armed with a rifle but something is better than nothing, could have hung back at the street behind a cruiser with better view of the entire situation as it unfolded, probably could have IDd and dropped the shooter as he was getting off his first round, maybe sooner.
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Old May 17, 2013, 07:30 PM   #70
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Someone above mentioned the latecomer in the red truck as being late to the scene - but I have a suspicion he was not late to the scene but was, in fact, covering the back. It doesn't seem to be a side property and very likely he had no access from back to front, so he probably had to get in his truck and drive back around to the front after the firing started. Just a guess.
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Old May 18, 2013, 06:06 AM   #71
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If you ever work in mobile Security, were you have individuals who are just "Hanging out" they use vehicles in the yard, as places to sit, armed.

Approaching a front entrance, walking past a parked vehicle, without a real close look in that vehicle is a big No-No.

These Officers most likely did this kind of check, many times, this time was different!
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Old May 18, 2013, 06:52 AM   #72
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Brits point....

Brit is spot on about the vehicles. Doing armed security you encounter people from all walks of life. Many people like to hide in or near vehicles. Other residents in a complex may smoke or chat on a cell phone/use WiFi in a vehicle.
There was a young G/armed officer in the Tampa FL area working a security patrol detail for a large firm called CIS. The security officer was shot in the back of the head in a apt complex parking lot. He died at the scene & never fired a round. This event took place about 3 years ago.

CF
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Old May 20, 2013, 05:44 PM   #73
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Walking up to the house is now considered to be rushing it?
I guess you didn't notice that they had weapons drawn.
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Old May 22, 2013, 09:21 AM   #74
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I guess you didn't notice that they had weapons drawn.
Your observation that I did not notice that is correct! I did not. Your observation that the officers had their weapons drawn when they approached the house is wrong.

Let's see, officer 1 walks up to the guy on the porch and is fiddledinking with his belly pouch/radio. No guns drawn there.

Officer 2 can be seen walking up with his hands slightly out to his sides, very open handed. Nope, no guns drawn there.

Officer 3 enters the initial scene after contact is made with the suspect and the suspect moving off to the side in his distraction maneuver, one hand out and one hand on his gun. And, no guns drawn there either. In fact, you can see in the video where his hand comes off his HOLSTERED gun and he has to replace his hand there and draw his gun AFTER the guy in the car gets out.

It isn't until AFTER the shooting starts and other officers arrived that you see people approach with guns drawn.

Whether guns or drawn or not is not indicative of "rushing."
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Old May 23, 2013, 12:01 AM   #75
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Yes with many officers they could have pulled up and sat in vehicles awhile to observe before going up. But after they got there its like they noticed that guy maybe had a warrant or something for all three to go straight to him. And then the other guy started shooting. And it depends on how big their dept was as to how many officers show up. Where I live in the country if we need info or trying to serve a warrant you will probably be there with one other officer. And sometimes after one thing went wrong yes it was a mistake but normorally you should check vehicles when going up but that man was outside and officers were so fixed on him nothing else mattered. If it was a raid I believe some officers would had ARs or shotguns. It was not a raid. Just something that went bad quickly.
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