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Old May 12, 2013, 12:56 PM   #26
Wreck-n-Crew
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Personally, I would not choose the word critical. There were obvious mistakes made that police themselves are sure to point out to future trainees or as a review into the shooting.
I would and did use the word "critical" in specific reference to not checking the cars and for specific reasons as out stated. Yes, there were mistakes, but there is a combination of issues at hand. It is am impossibility to clear all spaces all the time and still proceed while at the same time dealing with a known suspect.
After a reread it's hard to disagree with you. In fact critical does describe the mistake made. Good point!
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Old May 12, 2013, 01:40 PM   #27
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The main point, not enough officers! You are dealing with criminals, with hide gun shirts on. There is no such things as pot busts, visiting uncles, family members etc. You have to assume you are approaching danger!

Everything/person/vehicle/bush you have to clear on the way in.

It does not have to take for ever, but it must be thorough, then the Officer on your six is checking as well. Strolling in? Not so safe.

Maybe the walk to talk Officer might have a pistol, but second wave, back up, M4
in hand. All with radio communication.

The only time to stroll? When you are going home.
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Old May 12, 2013, 03:06 PM   #28
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The main point, not enough officers! You are dealing with criminals, with hide gun shirts on. There is no such things as pot busts, visiting uncles, family members etc. You have to assume you are approaching danger!
I can see your point. Just as long as it doesn't have the appearance you are rolling up with military like force for something that is not necessarily a military action.

People could fear that the government was over arming for a police-state and that would not do anything for gaining or maintaining trust that the government, local or otherwise, was not gearing up.

They would have had more police had there been an an actual warrant as well.
More than likely sheriff's.
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Old May 12, 2013, 04:49 PM   #29
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Just a comment on a point already made - but it remains perhaps one of the more important points I take away from this: it's the high capacity pistol argument. How many guys do you see reload?

A gunfight will always be a "come-as-you-are" proposition: whatever you have in your hands when it starts is what you'll open up with. Since these LEOs only appear to have handguns available to them, as you count the seconds - ask yourself when would have been a good time to reload?
After the initial volley everyone moved to cover. I would have been looking for a long gun of some kind at that point and cursing myself for not having it in the first place. Long gun not available I would have been reloading.
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Old May 12, 2013, 06:31 PM   #30
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if a Cop needs Hi Cap pistols, so do we, hence my Glock 19 (16 rounds ready to go) malfunction, or whatever, a spare G17 magazine on the belt!

Not to much to carry. And everyone, a bright Surefire LED Flashlight, day or night, sat next to that spare mag.
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Old May 12, 2013, 10:07 PM   #31
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7/31/2012 Miami Gunfight Video

Quote:
Originally Posted by Brit View Post
if a Cop needs Hi Cap pistols, so do we, hence my Glock 19 (16 rounds ready to go) malfunction, or whatever, a spare G17 magazine on the belt!

Not to much to carry. And everyone, a bright Surefire LED Flashlight, day or night, sat next to that spare mag.

That's my exact setup there Brit!



And sometimes even...



Also can't forget...

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Old May 13, 2013, 03:16 AM   #32
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Great minds...
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Old May 13, 2013, 08:50 AM   #33
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Head on a swivel...

This is what the USMC DIs & cadre mean when they say; "keep your head on a swivel" .

Not to nit-pick or play Monday morning QB(even when it is Mon morning, ), the tactical officer/narco agent should have scan for threats as he went towards the door.
Cover agents or SWAT members in a undercover unit could have done a intel sweep prior to the main raid & IDed the male subject in the vehicle.
Not to be picky either, but in many cases, you can "tell" if a vehicle near you is occupied, unless the car had dark tints or the Miami cop's view was blocked, he may have seen the subject or part of the subject in the front seat.
As other military & spec ops trainers say too; the battlefield is 360, so keep that in mind. ALWAYS scan for threats, even if you think the main subject is down or secured. "Seeded" back-up or buddies or what I call; "yard-birds" may pop up and cause more problems. It's common in some LE ops or security incidents.

CF
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Old May 13, 2013, 07:18 PM   #34
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7/31/2012 Miami Gunfight Video

All points taken. I concede that I may have been a little too critical of many things.

I still think that the middle officer letting the potential suspect out of his sight was a possibly lethal mistake though.

How about this scenario. Middle LEO loses sight of original suspect who disappears behind right vehicle. Suspect then pulls a pistol and shoots middle officer from the side. He is now in a position to engage two other officers from behind. Being as how one bad guy has already pulled a gun and is shooting at this point, how far fetched could this actually be?
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Old May 13, 2013, 07:48 PM   #35
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I'll be very critical. They blew the whole deal because the cops went on what looked to be a raid but one guy was late in the red pick up and the cop in the white car wasn't paying attention/parked in wrong spot and the first cop that walks to the door is not even looking around for a threat.

They under estimated the bad guys and it got one of them seriously wounded.

Maybe they will send a real team on future raids. 10 men ready to do battle if need be. 10 men so all angles are covered front,back and sides.

That's my opinion and its a trained one. Drugs are big money business and people are willing to die over it,just like the video proved.

The guys in the video look like they should have showed up after the raid to search the house........not conduct the raid.
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Old May 13, 2013, 08:29 PM   #36
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Well, without further criticizing the officers, I will say this: I forwarded a link to the Captain in charge of our training division.
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Old May 13, 2013, 08:34 PM   #37
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hot wash; orange county fl sheriff office gunfight...

In the late 2000s deputies in the Orange County Sheriffs Office got into a massive gun fight with over 300 rounds fired. It was in a stash house/drug house that had a 911 hang up.
A few deputies were wounded & a few subjects were shot. It was a huge mess.
The event showed that any LE op can go sideways very quickly.

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Old May 13, 2013, 08:46 PM   #38
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Tunnel vision kills, looks to me like they got hyper focused on suspect 1 and lost situational awareness. I'm guilty of it too, almost caused me to have a real bad day over in the sandbox one time. Learned my lesson though, there's always a second and third threat, even if there's not there is.

An officer in a covering position back at the street behind the car would've been a good idea too but now I'm being an armchair QB.
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Old May 13, 2013, 09:16 PM   #39
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I forwarded a link to the Captain in charge of our training division.
Now that is something I cant wait to hear about. Really be nice to assess our assessments! Give us a chance to grade our selves on what we thought was right wrong or whatever.

Welcome back from the sandbox Tucker 1371 and thanks for your service. Also good point.

Ive had my share of bad lead my way compared to some and it's nothing to brag about from my end for sure, but i have friends that felt the lead and the dead more than any man should. (nam)
Then again that's why they did what they did and you did what you did, so many of us stateside don't have to. I'm reminded to often when i think of my brother GRHS.

Anyway glad you can tell the tale and thanks again.
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Old May 13, 2013, 09:51 PM   #40
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Funny how the article infers that verbally indentifying themselves as "police" was enough to verify their authenticity to the perp, even though having badges, "police radios" and the word "police" on their armor was a common technique of thieves.

For my part, I would be very suspicious of some men wearing body armor over their t-shirts who come up to my door asking to search my house. I wouldn't start shooting at them, but then again I'm not a drug dealer. What I would do is ask for identification and then call the police to verify that the men at my door were genuine before deciding what to do next.

Ivan
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Old May 14, 2013, 12:26 AM   #41
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Just why would someone need more than ten rounds? These trained police officers engaged a single shooter and fired 22 rounds by my count, and that's just what I can see. Had that been a citizen and he gotten any kind of drop on then, having only ten rounds, he would be dead.
You just saw why someone would need more than ten rounds-- if you can separate the way things unfolded in reality from the concepts you have about how things should have been after analyzing for thousands of seconds what the officers had seconds, or fractions there of, to deal with.

None of the officers gave any indication they saw the guy in the car. Looks like they just missed him.

The officers, exposed in the open, drew their guns while under fire from a gunman who had the cover of a tree. They stood their ground, fought back and killed the suspect. You might cut 'em a break.

And yes, there were mistakes that were, I'm sure, addressed in training.

Things never turn to crap in our heads---just in the world of reality (with great regularity).

Just my thoughts on the matter.

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Old May 14, 2013, 08:15 AM   #42
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Originally Posted by Wreck-n-Crew
Now that is something I cant wait to hear about. Really be nice to assess our assessments! Give us a chance to grade our selves on what we thought was right wrong or whatever.
Actually, I forwarded a link to the video to the Cap'n, not a link to this thread.
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Old May 14, 2013, 05:40 PM   #43
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Guns & tactics...

I agree with post #38. Stress fear anger etc can cause a rapid change in your hearing, vision, perception of time/distance etc. Author & sworn LE officer Massad Ayoob wrote a few gun press items about the subject.
I'd add that any members who feel they would react a certain way to a LE raid should review the recent incident in central FL of a group of sworn deputies who went to the WRONG address & then shot/killed the home owner who answered the door holding a firearm.
This tragic event ended with the armed citizen dying, the sworn deputies being cleared of all wrong-doing, the Sheriff's Office being sued for wrongful death & the original subject having all his criminal charges dismissed.

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Old May 14, 2013, 11:59 PM   #44
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Actually, I forwarded a link to the video to the Cap'n, not a link to this thread
.

It would be nice to know. I actually know someone is in LE maybe have him give me some info when he gets time and I run into him again.

Thanks SPATS
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Old May 15, 2013, 06:30 AM   #45
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Those officers are LUCKY. Poorly executed raid. No situation awareness...well lack of proper SA.

Do I feel sorry for that guy being gunned down...no I'm sorry he did not drop his weapon til he got shot in the head...by then it was too late. He chose death over life in prison.

All comes down to a little green plant...amazing what human beings would do for something that is nothing. Well apparently to the shooter...a plant was worth his life.

Hope to see this video used as training aids on what could be done better in future classes. I could sit here and pick this video apart, but I was not there nor am I these officers Commander.

Quote:
I agree with post #38. Stress fear anger etc can cause a rapid change in your hearing, vision, perception of time/distance etc. Author & sworn LE officer Massad Ayoob wrote a few gun press items about the subject.
I'd add that any members who feel they would react a certain way to a LE raid should review the recent incident in central FL of a group of sworn deputies who went to the WRONG address & then shot/killed the home owner who answered the door holding a firearm.
This tragic event ended with the armed citizen dying, the sworn deputies being cleared of all wrong-doing, the Sheriff's Office being sued for wrongful death & the original subject having all his criminal charges dismissed.

ClydeFrog
For this reason I always ask who it is through my door and answer with no weapons visible.

I hope they each get sued personally.
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Old May 15, 2013, 07:45 AM   #46
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For me, this video really highlights the vagaries of gunfights. It's very easy for me to say "I'll do X, Y or Z," but the reality may be quite different. Those officers have far more training than I, and it still took quite a while (& lots of bullets) to end the fight. The attacker chooses the time & place, and there's a whole lot of luck that plays into it, no matter how much training & trigger time.
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Old May 15, 2013, 08:01 AM   #47
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Well apparently to the shooter...a plant was worth his life.
With a street value of almost $200K. I think the money was the motivator.

As an aside:

In 1962, President John F. Kennedy signed a proclamation which designated May 15th as Peace Officers Memorial Day. Stay safe.
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Old May 15, 2013, 09:37 AM   #48
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Looking at that video, I believe that all the law enforcement officers were at risk of being shot in the opening seconds, and they were very lucky not to have had that happen (had the gunman been more proficient).
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Old May 15, 2013, 03:28 PM   #49
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Miami Vice clip....

There is a clip on www.youtube.com of a scene from the 1980s cop drama; Miami Vice where a top match shooter(Im not sure exactly who but one of the big names in the ISPC sport) plays a bad guy & shows how fast a skilled person can draw & shoot.
If you never saw the video, it's a real eye-opener.
Bear, in mind the Miami Vice producers had him draw & fire in real time, no SFX or editing. For you newer shooters, the scene was with a blank firing pistol; no CGI.

CF
EDIT; The Youtube clip with the Miami Vice scene is PACT Timers In Hollywood.
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Old May 15, 2013, 04:33 PM   #50
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Clyde, your link is to youtube home page.

Is this the clip?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MsKj6RGQ2VM
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