The Firing Line Forums

Go Back   The Firing Line Forums > Hogan's Alley > Tactics and Training

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old May 10, 2013, 10:56 AM   #1
Spats McGee
Staff
 
Join Date: July 28, 2010
Location: Arkansas
Posts: 4,966
7/31/2012 Miami Gunfight Video

I dont know enough about tactics and training to really critique what the various parties to this shootout did, but it's certainly educational. This is about a 15 minute video, showing the gunfight from different camera angles. It's not that often that we get more than one camera angle on the same gunfight.

Setup: Police show up to arrest Man #1, and Man #2 pops out of a parked car and starts shooting.

Some things that I noticed:

Man #2 had a little time before police drew on him.

Man #2 takes at least two hits, and stays in the fight. It's not until he takes a head shot that he goes down. And while the head shot rang his bell, it didn't kill him immediately.

Body armor helps. I think the cop on the right took one in the vest and one in the leg.

The bad guy took several hits and stayed up and fighting. You can even see blood on his shirt, and he hops around on one leg.

http://www.miamiherald.com/2013/05/0...tout-that.html
__________________
A gunfight is not the time to learn new skills.

If you ever have a real need for more than a couple of magazines, your problem is not a shortage of magazines. It's a shortage of people on your side of the argument. -- Art Eatman
Spats McGee is offline  
Old May 10, 2013, 11:08 AM   #2
Constantine
Senior Member
 
Join Date: December 5, 2010
Location: Miami, Florida
Posts: 5,164
C'mon guys, you know better than that.

:|
__________________
Sáncte Míchael Archángele, defénde nos in proélio, cóntra nequítiam et insídias diáboli ésto præsídium. Ímperet ílli Déus, súpplices deprecámur: tuque, prínceps milítiæ cæléstis, Sátanam aliósque spíritus malígnos, qui ad perditiónem animárum pervagántur in múndo, divína virtúte, in inférnum detrúde. Ámen
Constantine is offline  
Old May 10, 2013, 11:19 AM   #3
Alabama Shooter
Senior Member
 
Join Date: December 20, 2012
Location: Sweet Home
Posts: 886
I totally thought the shooter in the car on the left was an undercover which is why he was ignored. That was a near fatal error not checking the car before trying to conduct the raid.

The raid itself was done exceptionally poorly too. I won't critique it because I am not that familiar with how LEO's do raids but that would have been considered a catastrophic failure in tactics if it had been a military raid.


ETA:
It looked to me like man#2 took four hits not three: 2 X torso, 1X leg, 1X Head.
__________________
Tomorrow is the most important thing in life. Comes into us at midnight very clean. It's perfect when it arrives and it puts itself in our hands. It hopes we've learned something from yesterday.
Alabama Shooter is offline  
Old May 10, 2013, 11:26 AM   #4
Constantine
Senior Member
 
Join Date: December 5, 2010
Location: Miami, Florida
Posts: 5,164
MDPD units such as the one who conducted this investigation are usually very thorough and they're supposed to have everybody in the vicinity in question under direct supervision and in some cases such as this one, even restrained. They weren't watching their 6 for whatever reason. Then this nut bag got the drop on them.

My first comment, I apply that again. They know better than that. There was probably an informant involved that isn't mentioned in the story. It happens here a lot, getting too comfortable.
__________________
Sáncte Míchael Archángele, defénde nos in proélio, cóntra nequítiam et insídias diáboli ésto præsídium. Ímperet ílli Déus, súpplices deprecámur: tuque, prínceps milítiæ cæléstis, Sátanam aliósque spíritus malígnos, qui ad perditiónem animárum pervagántur in múndo, divína virtúte, in inférnum detrúde. Ámen
Constantine is offline  
Old May 10, 2013, 11:30 AM   #5
Alabama Shooter
Senior Member
 
Join Date: December 20, 2012
Location: Sweet Home
Posts: 886
Quote:
getting too comfortable
As I would say before every mission, "complacency kills".
__________________
Tomorrow is the most important thing in life. Comes into us at midnight very clean. It's perfect when it arrives and it puts itself in our hands. It hopes we've learned something from yesterday.
Alabama Shooter is offline  
Old May 10, 2013, 12:09 PM   #6
Nittespanker
Junior member
 
Join Date: May 9, 2013
Posts: 70
A raid with 3 guys with pistols?
Here they would have sent a team of 10 with short barreled rifles and it would have been over real quick. The cars would have been cleared on the way to the door and part of the team would have provided cover facing the street.

Add:
After clicking on the "full story" it is reported that one detective was shot 3 times in the stomach.
And this was not a raid,it was a "knock and talk" attempt to get the suspects to consent to a search of the home.

Last edited by Nittespanker; May 10, 2013 at 01:08 PM.
Nittespanker is offline  
Old May 10, 2013, 06:08 PM   #7
Alabama Shooter
Senior Member
 
Join Date: December 20, 2012
Location: Sweet Home
Posts: 886
I saw four police officers not three. They did not look like they were asking permission for anything. They tried to grab the dude as soon as he was in sight. It was not a raid, but it was not a simple knock and ask either.
__________________
Tomorrow is the most important thing in life. Comes into us at midnight very clean. It's perfect when it arrives and it puts itself in our hands. It hopes we've learned something from yesterday.
Alabama Shooter is offline  
Old May 10, 2013, 07:13 PM   #8
Gbro
Senior Member
 
Join Date: February 20, 2005
Location: Minnesota
Posts: 2,056
To me it showed how little that shooter cared about living! to start a gunfight like he did was suicide by cop IMO.
The perimeter security was very poor having a vehicle drive right through the hot zone was hard to believe.
I kept waiting to see the downed shooter get that gun back in his hand, don't know what could have been done to prevent it in this shoot other than to move it with a couple well placed shots with the M-4.
Hard to believe he traded a BMW for a body bag!
__________________
Gbro
CGVS
For the message of the Cross is foolishness to those who are perishing, But to us who are being saved, It Is The Power Of God. 1Corinthians 1-18
Gbro is offline  
Old May 10, 2013, 07:31 PM   #9
Wreck-n-Crew
Senior Member
 
Join Date: March 8, 2013
Location: Ohio
Posts: 1,361
I get the sinking feeling this turns into one of the many training videos used for future training.

You can definately see the mistakes made, but the training and vests saved the day.
__________________
If you ever have to use a firearm, you don't get to pick the scenario!
Wreck-n-Crew is offline  
Old May 10, 2013, 07:56 PM   #10
Nittespanker
Junior member
 
Join Date: May 9, 2013
Posts: 70
Quote:
I saw four police officers not three. They did not look like they were asking permission for anything. They tried to grab the dude as soon as he was in sight. It was not a raid, but it was not a simple knock and ask either.
The fourth cop got to the party a bit late in the red pickup.
If you click on the link "full story" it CLAIMS it was a "knock and talk".
But to me it looked like an amateur drug raid.
One of the officers took 3 hits to the stomach the full story said. He is still recovering and not currently back on duty. Sounds like he almost died.
The dope dealer who was arrested was charged with the other dope dealers that died murder that the cops shot and killed. He is claiming they thought it was other criminals acting as police.
Nittespanker is offline  
Old May 10, 2013, 08:15 PM   #11
Seaman
Senior Member
 
Join Date: February 20, 2011
Posts: 648
Good to know the cop recovered.

Basic fighting smarts 101.

Check your 6.
__________________
For 20 years the sea was my home, always recall the sun going down, and my trusty friend, a 1911 pistol, strapped to my side.
Seaman is offline  
Old May 10, 2013, 08:23 PM   #12
garryc
Senior Member
 
Join Date: November 12, 2005
Posts: 2,314
Just why would someone need more than ten rounds? These trained police officers engaged a single shooter and fired 22 rounds by my count, and that's just what I can see. Had that been a citizen and he gotten any kind of drop on then, having only ten rounds, he would be dead.

You cannot have too much ammo when you are defending yourself
garryc is offline  
Old May 10, 2013, 11:58 PM   #13
nhbmaing
Member
 
Join Date: May 8, 2013
Location: Pennsylvania
Posts: 15
It's rare to see something like this in real time from several angles. That guy made a very poor decision by opening up on those cops. The cops were also lucky only the perp died. That could've gotten a lot more hairy than it already was!
__________________
The pen is mightier than the sword. I keep the sword for the day I run out of ink.
nhbmaing is offline  
Old May 11, 2013, 12:36 AM   #14
peacefulgary
Senior Member
 
Join Date: January 26, 2011
Location: USA
Posts: 524
Quote:
Just why would someone need more than ten rounds? These trained police officers engaged a single shooter and fired 22 rounds by my count, and that's just what I can see. Had that been a citizen and he gotten any kind of drop on then, having only ten rounds, he would be dead.

You cannot have too much ammo when you are defending yourself
Just think of where all those missed shots landed....

If the criminals don't get you the cops will.
peacefulgary is offline  
Old May 11, 2013, 07:56 AM   #15
Double Naught Spy
Senior Member
 
Join Date: January 8, 2001
Location: Forestburg, Montague County, Texas
Posts: 10,344
Cool link.

Quote:
Man #2 had a little time before police drew on him.

Man #2 takes at least two hits, and stays in the fight. It's not until he takes a head shot that he goes down. And while the head shot rang his bell, it didn't kill him immediately.

Body armor helps. I think the cop on the right took one in the vest and one in the leg.
I believe the suspect was hit at least three times before the head shot. Once in the leg (hopping, won't put weight on it), once in the torse (red dot appearing between shoulder blades), and once in the side/gut (another possible through and through).

The cop was hit 3 times in the gut as per the article.
Quote:
Delgado pops out of the BMW, gun in hand and starts firing at the officers. Saavedra, a few feet away, returns fire, stumbling away off screen. He has taken three shots to the stomach.
Read more here: http://www.miamiherald.com/2013/05/0...#storylink=cpy

I know folks are critical of the cops for not checking the cars. Got it. I would take a slightly different perspective on that. They can't check everywhere all the time and I have never seen a vid where the cops check every nook and cranny, vehicle, treehouse, shed, etc. BEFORE dealing with their primary area of concern and to do so would often eliminate the element of surprise they hope to enjoy via the circumstances, whether they be an actual raid or an aggressive stop and knock.

The failing I see, however, is that when Estevanell did his little maneuver to try to escape, he drew 100% of the cops' attention even after he was physically being handled by the cops (not yet cuffed, but controlled). The first two cops have him and the third is casually walking up to assist. He is the only one really unencumbered at this point and he does not exercise any situational awareness to make sure they are safe. I know he is en route to assist the other cops, but given the circumstance, he is the only one who has the opportunity to check their surroundings and make sure nothing is going on, even if he is just watching the house for other suspects to come out (most likely scenario).

It still took street cops over 6 minutes to arrive after the shooting started (and I assuming the late arriving Cop #4 in the truck was calling it in)
__________________
"If you look through your scope and see your shoe, aim higher."
-- said to me by my 11 year old daughter before going out for hogs 8/13/2011
Double Naught Spy is offline  
Old May 11, 2013, 09:06 AM   #16
Nittespanker
Junior member
 
Join Date: May 9, 2013
Posts: 70
Cop number 1 that strolls up to the door is lucky he did not get shot point blank by the dope dealer in the car. If that would have took place the other dealer in the residence could have armed himself or took an offensive position with a weapon of superior firepower Than the police and this would have put the police in a very difficult situation.
With one shooter in the car and another in the house firing with an m4 or similar weapon the initial assault team would have suffered a loss.

This was the case back in the 80's when the FBI conducted a raid in a suburb of Miami I believe it was Homestead.

A 10 man team would have a psychological effect along with a physical effect if the dope dealers wanted to fight.

It's obvious that these dope dealers were underestimated by the informant and in turn by the police.

Thankfully no police lost their lives that day.
Nittespanker is offline  
Old May 11, 2013, 10:00 AM   #17
Wreck-n-Crew
Senior Member
 
Join Date: March 8, 2013
Location: Ohio
Posts: 1,361
Quote:
I know folks are critical of the cops for not checking the cars. Got it. I would take a slightly different perspective on that. They can't check everywhere all the time and I have never seen a vid where the cops check every nook and cranny, vehicle, treehouse, shed, etc.
Personally, I would not choose the word critical. There were obvious mistakes made that police themselves are sure to point out to future trainees or as a review into the shooting.

The fact is that training only go's so far in assuring Police make the right choices in a given scenario.

What appears obvious was that the first three Officers that showed up appeared to have had tunnel vision. No one appeared to be looking out for outside threats like flank or 6 o'clock.

Situational awareness when approaching a home even for a knock and talk, is standard protocol, and for at least one officer to check for outside threats.

Anytime there is even two officers that show up at a home, notice how one will engage in the conversation while the other stays back observing. They will look left and right and at the person holding the conversation. They are looking for possible threats, for someone approaching, etc.

If you have never seen it, watch an episode or two of COPS. Observe how they approach a home or a person when they are attempting to communicate with someone for information or details to an event.

Even if they had covered their flanks, they still may have missed the guy in the car, but more likely they would have seen him than not IMO.
__________________
If you ever have to use a firearm, you don't get to pick the scenario!
Wreck-n-Crew is offline  
Old May 11, 2013, 12:38 PM   #18
Vanya
Staff
 
Join Date: July 7, 2008
Location: Upper midwest
Posts: 3,819
I noticed that that the first car to arrive, the white one that backed out of a spot on the other side of the street, appeared to have a line of sight to the BMW while the first man was getting into it. Perhaps the angle isn't what it appears to be, but how did they not see him coming out of the house before they approached it?
__________________
"Once the writer in every individual comes to life (and that time is not far off), we are in for an age of universal deafness and lack of understanding."
(Milan Kundera, Book of Laughter and Forgetting, 1980)
Vanya is offline  
Old May 11, 2013, 01:36 PM   #19
Jimboh247
Member
 
Join Date: December 5, 2012
Location: Lexington, NC
Posts: 81
Did anyone notice that it took backup 6 1/2 minutes to get there! From the first shot fired until the marked cars showed up. And this is a police involved shooting! Just imagine how long it would be with a regular citizen.
Jimboh247 is offline  
Old May 12, 2013, 03:25 AM   #20
silvrjeepr
Senior Member
 
Join Date: January 6, 2009
Posts: 213
7/31/2012 Miami Gunfight Video

I believe this was anything but a "knock and talk". There's no reason for multiple unmarked cars to converge quickly unless it was some type of bust or arrest attempt. My guess is the department labeled this as such rather than admit this was a poorly executed bust.

Given the number of vehicles in the drive way, these guys are extremely fortunate that no one else joined in the fight from another vehicle or the house.

The officer on the right is lucky to be alive at all. His first nearly fatal mistake was not looking to his right as he passed the car. Second, he steps right into the open in front of the shooter as the shooting starts. He should also be reprimanded for his inability to control his weapon. The two shots at the ground, one of them while he was tuned the other direction were a danger to everyone. Another 20 degrees and he would have sent that round towards the officer on the left.

Now for the biggie. Notice what happens to the guy being held. When the shooting starts, he is released and ignored. He goes between the vehicles and to the right away from all three officers. Had he decided to draw a gun at that point, things would have ended very badly. The middle officer who released him and turned his attention towards the active shooter is lucky to be alive also.

Looks like this was a best case scenario for these officers to make it home that day. Had one or two details changed, this story would have a different outcome by my untrained eye.
silvrjeepr is offline  
Old May 12, 2013, 03:40 AM   #21
silvrjeepr
Senior Member
 
Join Date: January 6, 2009
Posts: 213
7/31/2012 Miami Gunfight Video

After another look, I believe the officer in the red truck only shoots once. Rested on the bed, to the head of the shooter ending the fight. That's an impressive shot in a stressful situation.

By this time, the middle officer has forgotten about his potential suspect, and made it to the rear of the red truck.
silvrjeepr is offline  
Old May 12, 2013, 11:32 AM   #22
Wreck-n-Crew
Senior Member
 
Join Date: March 8, 2013
Location: Ohio
Posts: 1,361
Quote:
Now for the biggie. Notice what happens to the guy being held. When the shooting starts, he is released and ignored. He goes between the vehicles and to the right away from all three officers. Had he decided to draw a gun at that point, things would have ended very badly. The middle officer who released him and turned his attention towards the active shooter is lucky to be alive also.
My perception was that the immediate response was to react to the obvious threat as they should have. Also the training helped them to fall back in a defensive position because the second guy or a guy in the house could pose another threat, better safe than sorry.

That's at least two out of three right in their response to the given situation.
Plus i give them plausible correctness on the third for a possible 3 of 3 because the suspect that ran appeared to be avoiding gunfire as much as the police. I would guess they had him in their peripheral vision.

I think they made no serious error there IMO. Still would have loved to see the debriefing as to how they did after the battle ensued.
__________________
If you ever have to use a firearm, you don't get to pick the scenario!
Wreck-n-Crew is offline  
Old May 12, 2013, 11:49 AM   #23
Alabama Shooter
Senior Member
 
Join Date: December 20, 2012
Location: Sweet Home
Posts: 886
Quote:
He should also be reprimanded for his inability to control his weapon. The two shots at the ground, one of them while he was tuned the other direction were a danger to everyone. Another 20 degrees and he would have sent that round towards the officer on the left.
No. He had been shot at that point. I think if you are shot in the gut several times you get a little lee way on muzzle awareness and control. Still he was lucky.

I did notice however that the 3rd officer to arrive hesitated about two seconds before drawing his weapon. When the shooter exited the vehicle with his gun out he should have drawn while backing away instead of backing away and then drawing. A minor point really.
__________________
Tomorrow is the most important thing in life. Comes into us at midnight very clean. It's perfect when it arrives and it puts itself in our hands. It hopes we've learned something from yesterday.
Alabama Shooter is offline  
Old May 12, 2013, 12:34 PM   #24
Double Naught Spy
Senior Member
 
Join Date: January 8, 2001
Location: Forestburg, Montague County, Texas
Posts: 10,344
Quote:
Personally, I would not choose the word critical. There were obvious mistakes made that police themselves are sure to point out to future trainees or as a review into the shooting.
I would and did use the word "critical" in specific reference to not checking the cars and for specific reasons as out stated. Yes, there were mistakes, but there is a combination of issues at hand. It is am impossibility to clear all spaces all the time and still proceed while at the same time dealing with a known suspect.

Did the cops appear to have tunnel vision. Yep, but also had a perceived threat with which to deal. That brings up a serious logistical issue as to whether you ignore the perceived threat and check for other threats or not. Somebody should have been looking around, but officers 1 and 2 were fixated on the threat. That is why I commented that I thought officer #3 who wasn't handling the threat should have been looking around and wasn't.

During the gun fight, none of the officers are checking their sixes. Mistake or necessary risk. At about 7:20 in the video, the shooting is over (for the time being and as it turned out, for good) and the suspect originally approached by the cops is being ordered to an awaiting officer who is out in the open. Mistake or necessary risk? The officers who arrive in squad cars do not stop and clear the area before proceeding. The just out of their cars and run with tunnel vision to a new area of safety behind vehicles in the street. It doesn't even appear that they all have their guns drawn before exiting their vehicles as at least one appears to be drawing his gun as he runs and one who runs behind and between the vehicles in the street appears to be empty handed. Mistakes or necessary risks?

Quote:
Did anyone notice that it took backup 6 1/2 minutes to get there!
Yep, three posts above yours.

Quote:
I believe this was anything but a "knock and talk". There's no reason for multiple unmarked cars to converge quickly unless it was some type of bust or arrest attempt. My guess is the department labeled this as such rather than admit this was a poorly executed bust.
Yes.

Quote:
Given the number of vehicles in the drive way, these guys are extremely fortunate that no one else joined in the fight from another vehicle or the house.
Or the trees, roof, houses across the street. You really can't secure everywhere all the time.

Quote:
Second, he steps right into the open in front of the shooter as the shooting starts.
He steps in front of the shooter? LOL! He corners the tree in order to have a shot at the threat from the car. The officer closes to the street does the same thing in the opposite direction, forcing the guy behind the tree to deal with threats from multiple and widely spaced directions. In short, the officers catch the perp in a cross fire where the perp is then exceptionally limited in the directions he can move and is shot multiple times in the process.

Quote:
He should also be reprimanded for his inability to control his weapon. The two shots at the ground, one of them while he was tuned the other direction were a danger to everyone.
Yeah, I don't know what he was thinking. He had only been shot 3 times in the gut at that point and probably realized his ability to fight was rapidly declining and so was firing hail Mary shots just to try to get the guy to stop shooting him anymore. I agree that he should not have been pulling the trigger, but I seriously doubt anybody will reprimand him for firing at that point.

Quote:
Another 20 degrees and he would have sent that round towards the officer on the left.
But it didn't go that way so complaining about it is moot.

Quote:
I noticed that that the first car to arrive, the white one that backed out of a spot on the other side of the street, appeared to have a line of sight to the BMW while the first man was getting into it. Perhaps the angle isn't what it appears to be, but how did they not see him coming out of the house before they approached it?
I don't think the angle is good from the driver's side of the white car plus there are multiple trees and branches, along with the BMW that all help block the view. Even if a decent view, he may not have had eye on that spot at the time. We don't know what job the officer in the white car was tasked with doing and in what direction.
__________________
"If you look through your scope and see your shoe, aim higher."
-- said to me by my 11 year old daughter before going out for hogs 8/13/2011
Double Naught Spy is offline  
Old May 12, 2013, 12:37 PM   #25
Doc Intrepid
Senior Member
 
Join Date: May 22, 2009
Location: Washington State
Posts: 831
Just a comment on a point already made - but it remains perhaps one of the more important points I take away from this: it's the high capacity pistol argument. How many guys do you see reload?

A gunfight will always be a "come-as-you-are" proposition: whatever you have in your hands when it starts is what you'll open up with. Since these LEOs only appear to have handguns available to them, as you count the seconds - ask yourself when would have been a good time to reload?

I mostly EDC small autos that hold around six rounds, with two spare magazines, and every time I see a scenario like this I wonder why I'm not packing a full-size pistol with double-stack magazines...

To add onto garryc's comment: '...you cannot have too much ammo in your pistol when you are defending yourself'...

__________________
Treat everyone you meet with dignity and respect....but have a plan to kill them just in case.
Doc Intrepid is offline  
Reply

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 07:50 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
This site and contents, including all posts, Copyright © 1998-2014 S.W.A.T. Magazine
Copyright Complaints: Please direct DMCA Takedown Notices to the registered agent: thefiringline.com
Contact Us
Page generated in 0.14108 seconds with 7 queries