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Old May 11, 2013, 08:56 AM   #26
Theohazard
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i picked up 5 boxes of 9mm this weekend. no worries mate...the bs is over
The ammo shortage is over? It seems like much of the country missed that memo...
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Old May 11, 2013, 09:58 AM   #27
Gaerek
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I live in Arizona. You can CC or OC without a permit. It's pretty common to see people OCing. When I first got here, it was strange (because I almost never saw it before) but now, it's pretty normal. I typically don't OC, except to and from the range. The few times I've OC'd in public I've never had anything more than a strange look from someone who thought a non-cop displaying a gun was strange.

Having said that, I have no problem with OCing in general. I have a problem with OCing to try to prove a political point. It doesn't help. It doesn't get people more "used" to seeing it. If anything it hurts. One only needs to look at California and the closing of the "Open Carry" loophole to understand this. A few years ago, you could open carry a handgun, as long as it was unloaded. So people started doing it a bunch to make a political statement, essentially challenging the government of California. So what did they do? They made even that illegal.
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Old May 11, 2013, 11:53 AM   #28
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I think it's more complicated than that. I think in Califonia's case the temperature of the water was clear, and OC activism was a poor choice. However,this may not be so in other locations. The gambit being, it's tough to predict what the politicians will do in your state.

Here, Nevada, things went the opposite way, there was no law governing OC, there were a few publicized OC incidents, there are still no laws governing OC(limited exceptions being anywhere federal law applies and the secure areas of airports), and municipal governments for the most part have been brought into compliance with state preemption, and therefor no governance of OC. Now the municipalities and governmental organizations that attempted to use the no CC signage to enforce no OC no longer do so, with one exception, LVMPD(and I believe some of the other LEAs). Additionally, as far as I know, people no longer get harassed.

I think the two major differences, is here the state lawmakers weren't likely to change their preemption law, and aside from people going out an OC'ing with the purpose of being noticed, many people wrote letters and similar actions pointing out the violation of state law and misuse of the no CC signage in an attempt to justify prohibition of OC at public facilities.

ETA: Clarification, LVMPD does not harass OC'ers, however they do still use the no CC/Firearms signage at their facilities and will not allow people to OC on the premises, which runs contrary to state law.
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Old May 11, 2013, 12:27 PM   #29
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When I'm in Florida there's no choice in the matter because it's not allowed.

At my home in Georgia, which is in the mountains, I do OC in town. It's a non event when I do.
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Old May 11, 2013, 12:42 PM   #30
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That's not how it works in my state and I'm pretty sure that's not how it works in most other states that allow both: If you're carrying concealed then you're carrying concealed; you aren't supposed to print and you can't just reveal your weapon and start open carrying.
Actually, in AZ that would work just fine, as both are covered under Constitutional Carry. Accidentally exposed your sidearm? No big deal.
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Old May 11, 2013, 12:52 PM   #31
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I have never OC'ed, because in Chicago you can't. Hell, we can't even carry concealed... YET! I have no problems with OC and encourage it. It's a right we should have in every state, and the more people that do it the more accepted it will become.

Concerning the ammo shortage... I was at Cabela's in Hoffman Estates, IL recently and they were pretty well stocked. Picked up some .308 and was tempted to buy a bunch of 7.62x39 and 54r i knew I didn't need. Have you seen the guys on armslist trying to dump all that ammo they hoarded? Heh...
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Old May 11, 2013, 01:06 PM   #32
tomrkba
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My shooting buddy was stopped and had his ID and the serial # on his 1911 ran and the cop treated him like a felon the whole time.
Most people have forgotten that the expression of the constitutionally protected right cannot be a crime. We have allowed too much blur to occur in the law over the past 75 years or so.

This is beyond the officer's authority in Virginia because you are not committing a crime by exercising a right under Section 13 of the constitution of the Commonwealth of Virginia. Possession is ownership here and there is no cause for them to check the gun under some notion of "checking to see if it is not stolen".

Quote:
I have a problem with OCing to try to prove a political point. It doesn't help.
Citation?

VCDL carries at the capitol building all the time for the apparently rare occasion that people engage in several rights simultaneously. They know we're carrying and they understand that our intent is to not do them harm. They understand our political point and we're reminding them that we are not paychecks to be taxed and used at their leisure.
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Old May 11, 2013, 01:43 PM   #33
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Its up to the individual what way they carry legally. Personally I don't see the point of advertising you are carrying a firearm. If someone is determined to carry out a attack it would make sense to me to take out the person carrying a firearm first.
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Old May 11, 2013, 02:00 PM   #34
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Personally, I don't care if people carry openly or concealed. Open carry is more interesting because then I can check out other people's carry guns when I'm standing in line, bored. Open carry can also be an idiot magnet - do you really want folks checking out your gun while you are standing in line at Walmart? Or some con artist figuring out how to distract you so he, or an accomplice can lift that pretty BBQ gun out of your holster?
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Old May 11, 2013, 05:43 PM   #35
Aguila Blanca
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Originally Posted by Theohazard
That's not how it works in my state and I'm pretty sure that's not how it works in most other states that allow both: If you're carrying concealed then you're carrying concealed; you aren't supposed to print and you can't just reveal your weapon and start open carrying.
In a state that allows both, why can't you go from one to the other? I know you're wrong about "most" states, and I suspect you're wrong abut your state.

Let's use Pennsylvania as an example, since I'm familiar with PA. Open carry is legal with no permit (except in Philadelphia). Concealed carry is legal with a permit. There have been incidents where cops have attempted to tell people that they "can't" open carry because they have a concealed carry permit (which is actually incorrect terminology in PA) so they MUST carry concealed. Those cops get slapped down pretty hard.

Think about the logic. Two people walking down the street. Both are open carrying. One has a concealed carry permit, the other does not. By your logic, the person with the permit is breaking the law but the other is not. That makes no sense whatsoever.

So your point must be that I can't "change state"? Why not? I start out on a cool morning, so I wear a windbreaker and my sidearm is covered. I'm carrying concealed. Later, the sun is out and the day warms up considerably, so I remove the windbreaker and I'm now open carrying. Do you seriously think that the laws of any state prohibit that? Why would it be illegal for me to shift into open carry mode if it's completely legal for me to open carry from the moment I step out my front door?

Last edited by Vanya; May 11, 2013 at 05:48 PM. Reason: typo.
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Old May 11, 2013, 07:50 PM   #36
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How ironic, while traveling thru Newberg Oregon yesterday I stopped for gas. A truck pulled up for gas and the passenger that got out to buy a snack in the store was OCing.... my observations, nobody cared or noticed. Based on his demeanor, not only was there nothing to worry about but he seemed very friendly (Newberg is a small town IMO).

Admittingly, Im not up to speed on OC laws in Oregon because I never considered it in any city limit. But I suspect that with a CHL its legal.... (pretty much would end the printing debate) and could be convienient at times....
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Old May 11, 2013, 09:03 PM   #37
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Citation?
California comes to mind.
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Old May 11, 2013, 11:14 PM   #38
Theohazard
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Aquila Blanca:

I think you misunderstand me. I'm just saying that you can't be carrying concealed, then all of a sudden pull back your shirt to expose your weapon.

The law in my state (Washington), as I understand it, is as follows: You can't be carrying concealed and then decide, in full public view, to shift to open carry. When you're carrying concealed in public you're supposed to do just that; carry concealed. If you want to switch to open carry you need to do so in a private setting.

If you have a permit and want to carry concealed, then carry concealed. If you want to open carry, then open carry. You just can't switch from one to the other while in public. That is what I'm saying and that is my understanding of Washington law. However, I may be wrong.

I know the guy who literally wrote the book on Washington carry laws, maybe on Monday I'll shoot him an email. If I'm wrong about this I want to be corrected as soon as possible.
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Old May 11, 2013, 11:38 PM   #39
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Hi, I'm new to the forum, but not other forums or guns. As others have said in AZ carrying guns for the most part is a non-event. Unless you are acting weird or otherwise attracting interest the PD will not bother you. If some idiot calls 911 with a "man with gun" report, the PD will likely not respond without other evidence of a crime.

Lately I've been actively looking at people to see if they are printing or carrying, so far this week I haven't seen anyone. Either everyone is carrying LCP's or they are unarmed. I suspect a lot more women than you realize have a gun in their purse, because they can.

But most open carry people who I have noticed in the past seem to fall into several categories.

There is the California visitor who is exercising his rights in a free state, because he can. That would be the one at WalMart with a shoulder holster worn OUTSIDE his jacket. LOL

Then there is the desert rat, who carries a six shooter because they are in and out of town and might need to shoot a rattlesnake, boar or bear. They usually drive a dusty pickup and wear worn leather cowboy boots (not polished alligator like the California cowboys).

There is the border resident who may well be carrying an AR 15 and a 1911 because their life may depend on it.

There is the retired geezer who is just tired of taking crap and if you are a gang banger or wannabe you'd best keep your distance because they won't hesitate to defend themselves.

There is the occasional gun rights person who carries to make a point, and my hat is off to them.

Finally there is the occasional business person who OC's coming and going or at their business.

Everyone else pretty much seems to carry concealed unless they are hiking or hunting.

Last edited by Vanya; May 12, 2013 at 10:49 AM. Reason: bloodlust.
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Old May 12, 2013, 06:05 AM   #40
Aguila Blanca
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Originally Posted by Theohazard
I think you misunderstand me. I'm just saying that you can't be carrying concealed, then all of a sudden pull back your shirt to expose your weapon.

The law in my state (Washington), as I understand it, is as follows: You can't be carrying concealed and then decide, in full public view, to shift to open carry. When you're carrying concealed in public you're supposed to do just that; carry concealed. If you want to switch to open carry you need to do so in a private setting.
Please cite the Washington state law that says this. I didn't misunderstand you, I just think your understanding is incorrect. I know your understanding is not correct for "most other states that allow both."

If this interpretation is something that developed out of case law rather than statute, please cite the case(s).

I suspect what you are thinking of is a case somewhere, some time in which someone pulled back their cover garment in order to display a sidearm in a threatening manner. I would agree that's illegal (unless done in response to an assault or threatened assault), but I find it difficult to believe that in Washington if the day turns warm I'm supposed to make like Superman and find a telephone booth before I'm allowed to remove my jacket because I'm getting hot.

Last edited by Aguila Blanca; May 12, 2013 at 06:11 AM.
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Old May 12, 2013, 11:28 AM   #41
armoredman
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Ah, what Aguila is referring to is called "brandishing" in some states. AZ made it legal for self defense purposes under the statute of "defensive display" a few years ago.
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Old May 12, 2013, 01:53 PM   #42
Theohazard
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I suspect what you are thinking of is a case somewhere, some time in which someone pulled back their cover garment in order to display a sidearm in a threatening manner. I would agree that's illegal (unless done in response to an assault or threatened assault), but I find it difficult to believe that in Washington if the day turns warm I'm supposed to make like Superman and find a telephone booth before I'm allowed to remove my jacket because I'm getting hot.
Like I said, that is my understanding of the law, and it does make a lot of sense from a legal point of view: It is difficult to legally distinguish between taking off your coat to illegally display your weapon in a threatening manner, and taking off your coat to begin legal open carry. Therefore, if the transition is made in private it avoids those distinctions.

That is the understanding that myself, and many other people I know, have regarding Washington law. It makes complete sense why the law would be written that way. But like I said, I may be wrong.
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Old May 12, 2013, 02:57 PM   #43
Aguila Blanca
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Originally Posted by Theohazard
That is the understanding that myself, and many other people I know, have regarding Washington law. It makes complete sense why the law would be written that way. But like I said, I may be wrong.
I don't agree that it makes sense, but since you maintain that the law is written that way, please provide a link to the actual law so we can all see what it really says.
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Old May 12, 2013, 03:38 PM   #44
Theohazard
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Like I said already, I'm going to email the local expert on my state's concealed carry laws on Monday. I'll let you know what I find out.

Though I don't quite understand how such a law wouldn't make sense. It seems like it would be very difficult to legally distinguish between taking off your coat for the purpose of illegally threatening another person, and legally doing so for the purpose of switching to open carry.

The kind of law I'm referring to would greatly simplify that distinction.
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Old May 12, 2013, 04:16 PM   #45
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While there would certainly be some grey areas, a pretty broad line is obvious...Is the person in question engaged in any manner with another person? In other words, was the person just walking down the street and removed their coat or similar circumstances, or were they actively engaged with another person. If they are engaged with another person are there any indicators of hostility? Would be kinda hard to argue, that the persons intent was to threaten, if they were not in a disagreement or conflict of some sort with another person.

Since you do not seem to want to produce the law...

Quote:
(1) It shall be unlawful for any person to carry, exhibit, display, or draw any firearm, dagger, sword, knife or other cutting or stabbing instrument, club, or any other weapon apparently capable of producing bodily harm, in a manner, under circumstances, and at a time and place that either manifests an intent to intimidate another or that warrants alarm for the safety of other persons.
Source

Merely uncovering a firearm with no other indicators of hostility, conflict, or impending violence, it would be awful hard to prove intent to intimidate. As the uncovered firearm in itself is a legal activity, it would be difficult to say that a person engaging in a perfectly legal activity warrants alarm. It may cause alarm, but proving that alarm was warranted is another matter.
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Old May 12, 2013, 04:43 PM   #46
Theohazard
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Since you do not seem to want to produce the law...
I'd rather ask someone who knows the laws inside and out than spend a lot of time searching for something online, especially if I'm wrong and such a law doesn't exist; I did a quick search and didn't find anything regarding transitioning from concealed to open carry while in public. It can take a lot of time searching for something if it isn't there.

I'm not sure why I'm getting so much flak for this; I've stated many times that I may be wrong and that this was merely my understanding of the law.

I've only lived in Washington state for a year now. One thing I've gathered so far is that in many places (mostly on the western side of the state) the public and the police are often not very receptive to open carry of any kind, despite it being legal. My boss has a close friend who recently witnessed a local SWAT team take down a man in a supermarket who accidentally exposed his handgun while shopping. I have friends who open carry in the Seattle area who are stopped constantly by police.

Maybe my understanding of the law is merely an anecdotal advisement on what will often get you harassed by local law enforcement, and not what the actual law is.
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Old May 12, 2013, 05:06 PM   #47
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The reason for the "flak", as you would put it, is your statement is akin to, "based on my understanding of aliens, which may not even exist, they like sandwiches". In other words, how do you proclaim to understand something you're not even sure exists?

Asking for some sort of basis for your statement is hardly "flak".
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Old May 12, 2013, 05:18 PM   #48
Theohazard
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Fair enough. Though in this case my statement is "based on my understanding of the law as it has been conveyed to me by people who seemed to be more knowledgeable on the subject than I". And also in this case I've acknowledged many times that those people, and I, may be wrong.

And keep in mind that while there might not be a specific law on transitioning from concealed to open carry in public, specific court rulings regarding the subject might have established precedents on the issue. That is why I'd rather consult an expert than search through pages of case reference.
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Old May 12, 2013, 06:41 PM   #49
Gaerek
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Open Carry culture

Quote:
Originally Posted by tomrkba View Post
Citation?

VCDL carries at the capitol building all the time for the apparently rare occasion that people engage in several rights simultaneously. They know we're carrying and they understand that our intent is to not do them harm. They understand our political point and we're reminding them that we are not paychecks to be taxed and used at their leisure.
I said its my belief. I have yet to see anything positive come from the OC movement, yet I cited one example where a right exercised was a right lost. From a public point of view, you aren't going to sway pro-gunners or anti-gunners one way or another. It's the people in the middle. Civil OC rallies like what you mention? Yeah that might have an impact. Someone videotaping their OC walk because you want to get a cop on camera violating your 2nd Amendment rights (which gets mentioned every time they open their mouth)? Probably not going to help.

Like I said, I'm pro-OC. The few times I do it, it makes me smile when I see a sheeple stare at my gun. I'd love to know what's going through their head. I just think its something that you need to be smart about. I have the right to say what I want, but I'll go to jail if I yell "Fire!" or "Bomb!" in a crowded place. I'm not saying that this is the same as OC, but even our supposed uninfringable rights have limits. Be careful, and be mindful of the political climate. That's what the OCers in California didn't do...and the had rights taken away even further.
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Old May 12, 2013, 07:43 PM   #50
Jeremiah/Az
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Az. was an OC only state since statehood until a few years ago. Then came either or after permits were available. Now we can carry either way without a permit.

I have a permit & carry both ways. I have never had a bad experience while OCing. I can assure you that I can get my arm in action much quicker when OCing!
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