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Old May 7, 2013, 02:44 PM   #1
Glenn E. Meyer
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DOJ gun violence report

http://www.washingtonpost.com/politi...y.html?hpid=z3

Quick read

Firearms-related homicides declined 39 percent between 1993 and 2011, the report said, while nonfatal firearms crimes fell 69 percent during that period.

Less than 1 percent of state prison inmates who possessed a gun when they committed their offense obtained the firearm at a gun show, the report said

DC had highest firearms violence rate.

Similar stats are broken down.

Initial headline was the the DOJ gave gift to the NRA. Then changed.
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Old May 7, 2013, 03:18 PM   #2
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Re: DOJ gun violence report

There is a related article in the LA Times, about a pew survey that indicates even though gun crime is down a large number of people (~half iirc) think its up. I think this is unfortunately telling of how little people care to investigate the facts of matters. It is also indicative of a negative side of instant national/international media, in which people lose scope and perpective because regardless of actual rates, incidents are perceived to occur all the time.

On my phone, will add a link to the article when I get to my computer.

ETA: Article Link

Last edited by sigcurious; May 7, 2013 at 05:51 PM.
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Old May 7, 2013, 03:59 PM   #3
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The actual Justice Department report is found here:
http://bjs.gov/index.cfm?ty=pbdetail&iid=4616
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Old May 7, 2013, 04:21 PM   #4
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This just really reaffirms the fact that the recent push for gun control is not about keeping society safer. For whatever reason some individuals have decided that the average person does not need a gun and regardless of the facts they intend to push their will on everyone else. As with a lot of things this is really about freedom and personal responsibility. We need to learn to respect each other’s freedom and hold individuals accountable for the decisions they make.
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Old May 7, 2013, 06:33 PM   #5
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motorhead, thank you for posting the link to the report.

Still reading through it, so far it looks like a good thorough report. Have not read through the entire thing, but I hope that type of firearm used is broken down more than handgun - other.
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Old May 7, 2013, 07:34 PM   #6
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BarryLee
"This just really reaffirms the fact that the recent push for gun control is not about keeping society safer. For whatever reason some individuals have decided that the average person does not need a gun and regardless of the facts they intend to push their will on everyone else. As with a lot of things this is really about freedom and personal responsibility. We need to learn to respect each other’s freedom and hold individuals accountable for the decisions they make."
Gun control is not about guns. It is about control.

It is a manifestation of the fundamental schism between those who hold the view that free men and women are responsible for themselves, their behavior, their livelihoods, their communities, and their governments; and the perspective that citizens are not entirely responsible for themselves and their wellbeing but are also the products of their cultures and societies, which are inherently unjust - and therefore it is the role of government to redistribute wealth "from each according to their ability, to each according to their need" (Karl Marx, 1875) to create a fairer, more just society.

The two perspectives are mutually exclusive and will continue to be diametrically opposed to one another as long as the Republic stands.

Which brings us to the suggestion that you ought to download the DOJ report at your earliest convenience, before the current administration realizes that it supports the NRA's position and either alters it or removes it. Eric Holder is going to be seriously annoyed tomorrow... (!)

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Old May 7, 2013, 07:45 PM   #7
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I think the CDC says that while gunshot related deaths are in decline the number of gunshot realted assaullts are up an and 70% of all murders are committed with a gun.

Still doesn't change the 2nd ammendment.

Last edited by Plumbnut; May 8, 2013 at 01:06 AM.
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Old May 7, 2013, 09:11 PM   #8
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I have bookmarked the report, AND saved it. I keep remembering the large RKBA-friendly DOJ report that came out just before Ashcroft retired. It was available on-line for awhile, then it mysteriously disappeared. I fully expect that any document not supporting the administration's views is not long for this world.
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Old May 7, 2013, 09:25 PM   #9
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Quote:
Less than 1 percent of state prison inmates who possessed a gun when they committed their offense obtained the firearm at a gun show
Absolutely incredible.

Now. How are the anti-gun folk going to spin THIS statistic?
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Old May 7, 2013, 09:30 PM   #10
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No one knows how many crimes are committed by guns from private sales to felons......including transfers from their family and friends to the criminals.

The criminals are not going to tell the truth about where they got their gun.....that would open their family or friends up to prosceution.

Just my opinion.

If I was a felon I would buy from an individual who had a clean gun....not stolen. No background check. Thats a no brainer. Only the dumb felons buy stolen guns.....you know not all criminals are stupid.
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Old May 7, 2013, 09:44 PM   #11
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Quote:
Now. How are the anti-gun folk going to spin THIS statistic?
Well, ya know, if we can save just one life...
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Old May 7, 2013, 10:25 PM   #12
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Quote:
And they dont tell you that most all those murders and assaults are committed by repeat offenders that they let out of prison either early or didn't proscecute at all.

This link is to factcheck.org

http://factcheck.org/2012/12/gun-rhetoric-vs-gun-facts/

That is a very interesting and very specific set of facts, but the claims made do not appear in the link offered to justify the claims. Nothing is stated about repeat offenders, parole, prison, or failure to prosecute.
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Old May 7, 2013, 10:38 PM   #13
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Plumbnut
And they dont tell you that most all those murders and assaults are committed by repeat offenders that they let out of prison either early or didn't proscecute at all.

This link is to factcheck.org...
What evidence do you have to support that claim? As Double Naught Spy has pointed out, the so "authority" you linked to, while interesting, simply doesn't support your contention.

As has been stated, by me and by others, if you expect to be taken seriously your opinions, especially opinions stated as fact, need to be properly supported.

All opinions are not equal, and an unsupported opinion apparently snatched out of thin air is not worth considering.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Double Naught Spy
Quote:
Originally Posted by Plumbnut
And they dont tell you that most all those murders and assaults are committed by repeat offenders that they let out of prison either early or didn't proscecute at all.

This link is to factcheck.org

http://factcheck.org/2012/12/gun-rhetoric-vs-gun-facts/

That is a very interesting and very specific set of facts, but the claims made do not appear in the link offered to justify the claims. Nothing is stated about repeat offenders, parole, prison, or failure to prosecute.
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Old May 7, 2013, 11:32 PM   #14
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Plumbnut
The criminals are not going to tell the truth about where they got their gun.....that would open their family or friends up to prosceution.
Do you think the 37.4% of inmates in the DOJ report who reported getting guns from family or friends is grossly understated?
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Old May 7, 2013, 11:41 PM   #15
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If I was a felon I would buy from an individual who had a clean gun....not stolen. No background check.
Right. And how many folks do I know who'd take that chance? Pretty much none.
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Old May 8, 2013, 03:36 PM   #16
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Already some of the people I'm seeing on Facebook have problems with this report.
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Old May 8, 2013, 03:45 PM   #17
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DOJ gun violence report

Quote:
Originally Posted by dakota.potts View Post
Already some of the people I'm seeing on Facebook have problems with this report.
In what way? Is it some kind of emotional "this can't be true" reaction, or are people advancing thoughtful, documentation supported reasons to question the report?
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Old May 8, 2013, 03:53 PM   #18
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Things like "This data is vague and misleading. I would rather 10,000 Plaxico Buress incidents (plead guilty to a felony charge after accidentally shooting himself at a nightclub) than 1 Sandy Hook"
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Old May 8, 2013, 04:03 PM   #19
Frank Ettin
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DOJ gun violence report

Quote:
Originally Posted by dakota.potts View Post
Things like "This data is vague and misleading. I would rather 10,000 Plaxico Buress incidents (plead guilty to a felony charge after accidentally shooting himself at a nightclub) than 1 Sandy Hook"
So the sort of emotional "this can't be true" reaction one would tend to expect from people general antagonistic to the private ownership of guns.
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Old May 8, 2013, 04:06 PM   #20
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Great. DOJ data supports our side.....for now. Do we really want to cling to this particular DOJ report for the life of our cause? Does it matter at all what the DOJ report says about crimes and criminals? What bearing should this have on right to own firearms for protection against criminals, invasions and tyranny? You might want to think this through a little more before clinging to this latest report. I can assure you, you won't like the next DOJ report.
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Old May 9, 2013, 06:14 AM   #21
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Why won't we like the next report?
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Old May 9, 2013, 07:09 AM   #22
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Quote:
Now. How are the anti-gun folk going to spin THIS statistic?
The wonders of medical science in treating GSWs for one perhaps? Doesn't do a thing for violence per se, but keeping people alive after the fact, even if that trend is winding down.

Otherwise, they could claim the '94 AWB did work after all (and ignore the sunset in '04).

and yet, CA, being one of the heaviest regulated States in terms of gun control, still tops the list.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/news/datab...crime-us-state
(tho I note that IL must not count any of Chicagos murders... or perhaps the DOJ/FBI still won't use their crime stats, actually)
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Old May 9, 2013, 07:25 AM   #23
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I heard on one of the news stories yesterday that non-fatal gun crime are also down, down by 69%
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Old May 9, 2013, 07:40 AM   #24
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The guns acquisition numbers are stupidly out of date and flawed from the beginning. The internet has changed commerce in a huge way.

In 2004 around 40% of the country was on line. That number is estimated today well over 80%.



In 2004 the percentage of sporting good purchased on line was around 8%. Today it is 22%, nearly triple.




To even imagine that gun sales legal and illegal, are not following the same pattern requires an astonishing level of deliberate ignorance.



Personally I know very few people who buy any guns at gun sales anymore at all unless there is a panic going on. On this very site every few weeks someone posts a thread about how much gun shows suck due to the high prices, lack of gun vendors, sham-wow promoters and various other things. Very rarely does anyone post a positive review about a gun show at all or mention a purchase.

Criminals with warrants and known felons would have to exceptionally stupid to go to one as they are crawling with all kinds of cops. Often there are a couple at the door and then a few wandering the aisles depending upon the show. That does not even count those in plain clothes. So I would say it is unlikely they would go themselves. However, "send a friend" then "buy from said friend" and "presto-chango" now instead of "obtaining the gun at a gun show" they "bought it from a friend". Although I have my doubts they would even bother with a gun show when guns are so readily available on line.
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Old May 9, 2013, 07:55 AM   #25
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I believe the proliferation of legal guns, and CCW permits are one of the reasons we are seeing crimes using guns go down. Society is not getting more polite, nor less aggressive, but criminals now legitimately feel they could come up against citizens legally defending themselves, and their homes with guns.

Legal guns, and citizens with CCW permits are certainly a deterrent to crime.
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