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Old May 14, 2013, 07:16 PM   #1
tahunua001
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controversial 9mm discussion.

hello all, I posted a similar thread on another forum and it's starting to get nasty so hopefully I can rephrase it here and get the answers I'm looking for without getting mod-locked.

the overarching topic is that I am looking for some good load data for a 9mm carbine. I hope to use this for hunting(which is where the controversy and name calling takes over). it is perfectly legal in my state to use any centerfire cartridge in any configuration so please don't try telling me it's not legal. I have weighed the risks and will only be using this at muzzle loader ranges and will be going after nothing larger than medium game. I am looking to challenge myself and with all of my other guns being more suited to 150-400 yard shots and easily capable of taking down anything in my state no less a 120LB doe, I don't think any of them are well suited to challenge hunts.

I have gotten quite a bit of help from the other thread and one recurring theme is the recommendation of unique powder which is good because I have quite a bit of that at my disposal but a lot of their recipes are between 5.5 and 6 grains of powder(per 125gr projectile) and my sierra book(don't have access to any of my other manuals ATT) lists their max at 5.6 for unique. I will be using this in an AR15, are there any special considerations I need to know for hot loading with an AR? I've shot nato spec and +P in it with no issues, I'm just not sure where .4grs of powder above recommended limits lies on the pressure charts.

next is bullet weight. I have been struggling with deciding between 124gr and 147gr HPs though at this point I am thinking the extra velocity and less drop in velocity of the 124gr may be what I am looking for over the slightly harder hitting 147gr. I am kindof torn between speer gold dots and hornady XTPs though. in 44 and 45 the other reloaders in my family swear by the XTP but none of us load that much for 9mm and none have experience with the speer in general. I am thinking that better penetration and less fragmentation may be a better think to aim for in medium game. I see midway advertizes the gold dot as a bonded bullet so in theory it should hold together better than a non bonded but I learned the hard way over the course of this spring that some bonded bullets still shatter and fragment regardless of velocity. between these two options which would you recommend over the other?
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Old May 14, 2013, 07:35 PM   #2
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9mm is not a hunting round. The best you can hope for is the best self defense load. Just because you can doesn't mean you should hunt with it. With this "I can so I will" logic you "could " hunt with a .25 cal. Why risk wounding the animal to have it run off and possibly starve to death. The "sport" of it is not worth it. Human kills should be 1st on the list when hunting.

If your bent on doing it anyway get you some powder and some bullets and push the limit if you wish. It's your gun and your body,and hey it's legal right? Lol

Oh here is another thread you started a couple years ago about hunting deer with your 9mm carbine. I realize the current thread is about a suitable hand load but ultimately for most situations 9mm is too small even if you push it to its limits.
http://thefiringline.com/forums/showthread.php?t=458550

Like one guy says while a 9mm can kill a deer.... hunting is more like sniping you want it over quick and clean and you would never see a sniper using a 9mm.

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Old May 14, 2013, 07:55 PM   #3
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I think your making a mistake using HP’s for what you’re trying to accomplish. The reason is that most are for self defense and will not have enough penetration.
My suggestion is to go with a lead bullet. Penn’s 147 RNFPBB is a good choice. I use them in my Beretta storm carbine and it has good accuracy out to 75 yards. If you’re concerned about leading I have pushed them to over 1000 FPS in the carbine.
I use Win 231 and best accuracy is slightly under max, but you’re going to have to work up a load. Slower powder might work better but you might get some leading. Unique might be another good choice.
I’m sure you’re going to get more hassle using a 9mm but I think if you stay inside of 75 yards with a good penetrating bullet. This bullet out of the Beretta will hold 2 inches but there is also some drop so you’re going to have to know your gun and where it hits at 25, 50 and 75.
If a 9mm is so bad then I feel the same way about using arrows on deer’s
http://www.pennbullets.com/9mm/9mm-caliber.html
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Old May 14, 2013, 08:03 PM   #4
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Hard cast lead with a sharp shoulder. Like a truncated cone or swc.
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Old May 14, 2013, 08:05 PM   #5
Brian Pfleuger
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How thick do you guys think a deer is? How is a 9mm good enough penetrate a 12-18" wide person but it's not going to make it through a deer?

In any case, the OP has his reasons and he's heard enough crap about not doing it. If you have load data or suggestions, post them. If you're here to tell him not to do it, don't bother.

As to the OP, I would use a 115 or 124gr bullet so as to maximize powder space and therefore acceleration down the longer barrel. I would personally choose the Hornady XTP.

QuickLoad thinks Power Pistol is going to get the best velocity in just about any barrel length. In 16", with the 124gr it thinks the max load (+P) would get you about 1,600fps. It thinks you could get 1,700+ with the 115gr.
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Old May 14, 2013, 08:11 PM   #6
TennJed
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controversial 9mm discussion.

Have you considered bypassing the 9mm carbine and hunting with a revolver. The bullets and loads are more suited for killing animals and you get the challenge you are looking for. Actually more of a challenge IMHO
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Old May 14, 2013, 08:15 PM   #7
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well I've shot well over 1000 rounds through it so far so I really don't have too much to worry about as far as leading as long as I follow a day of shooting lead with a few jacketed rounds and it should be good to go. lead may end up being a good way to go but for the sake of science I may end up testing a JHP and cast side by side and see what does better. I've seen a straight lead bullet out of a 45/70 do amazing things in an elk with nearly 100% weight retention(minus losing the gas check)

on that note, I do not cast bullets often. my brother has a pair of 357s and I believe casts for them. I know for lead it's ok to go slightly oversized but would a bullet cast for a 357 be fine to run through a 355 bore or would I have to run it through a sizer?

Quote:
Have you considered bypassing the 9mm carbine and hunting with a revolver. The bullets and loads are more suited for killing animals and you get the challenge you are looking for. Actually more of a challenge IMHO
I don't own a revolver, I'm going with 9mm because it is the only rifle I own that is really distance restrictive.
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Old May 14, 2013, 08:21 PM   #8
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controversial 9mm discussion.

Sounds like a perfect excuse to buy a revolver A used Ruger Blackhawk in 44 mag or 45 colt can be had for a little bit over $400. Just a suggestion if you are looking for challenging.

I understand using what you have though. Good luck
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Old May 14, 2013, 08:40 PM   #9
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I would suggest Power Pistol. I can push a 124 Grain XTP to a little short of 1200 FPS out of a 4.40 Inch Sig P226. You should be able to get good velocity out of the rifle length barrel.

Blue dot gives a little better velocity, but I have never tried it. Personally, I think it's a little much for 9mm....

Sounds like a fun challenge!
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Old May 14, 2013, 09:12 PM   #10
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Brian, isn’t a hide with hair harder to penetrate than skin?
I was talking about under penetration due to bullets like the XTP which I have shot a lot of. Would it open up and not penetrate far enough?
Also out of my Beretta I have never been that happy with accuracy beyond 50 yards of the XTP but I haven’t spent that much time working up loads for the carbine.
I like lead due to the accuracy that I get out of my carbines which might not be that important staying within 75 yards but I figured that a heavy lead bullet would have a better chance getting into the heart than a light easily expanding bullet made for SD.
Never shot anything bigger than a ground hog with the 147 and penetration was sufficient, through the hog and numerous inches into the dirt behind him.
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Old May 14, 2013, 09:29 PM   #11
tahunua001
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Quote:
Brian, isn’t a hide with hair harder to penetrate than skin?
on something like a hog or bear yes it is but on cats, dogs and deer the difference is almost so miniscule that it makes little difference overall. hitting a rib or not makes a bigger difference in penetration than the difference between a deer and human hide.

also I don't think that brian was as much referring to your post as the never ending string of people that say that it is impossible to kill anything with a 9mm and to attempt such a thing is unethical and foolhardy... I agree that cast, especially truncated cone like you mentioned would offer better penetration but as I don't cast often I would have to step outside of my element a little bit which would probably be good for me in the long run, I just like to shoot jacketed as I don't ever have to worry about leading.
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Old May 14, 2013, 09:34 PM   #12
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Well...if ya absolutely gotta hunt with a 9mm, I'll share some observations on bullet types and performance. For a while there I was trapping a lot of hogs - small, medium, and large sizes. I'd get 8 or 10 in the big trap and shoot em and keep the good eating ones. Most recently I've used a 22 LR, but for a while I used a Colt Python. Naturally, in the interest of top performance, I went and got the 125 JHP reloads, which were loaded pretty warmish. I found that they really didn't do that good a job, even at point blank range. Hmmmm. So I got a box of 158 grain Keith type wadcutters reloads. They were 'just plain old lead' and not loaded more than mid-range. They worked far better on the hogs than the 125 JHP's did. That was a surprise to me. Wouldn't a guessed it, but I sure observed it.
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Old May 14, 2013, 09:42 PM   #13
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Ethical Challenge

I went throught the same thirst for challenge a few years back.
Rifle hunting whitetails = to easy
Slug hunting whitetails = to succesful (no tracking required)
.44 mag revolver = Challenging, fun, & succesful
.357 mag revolver = Challenging, but not succesful. One and only lost deer in almost 30 years of hunting Whitetale. I know its been done thousands of times but I now consider the .357 mag the absolute minimum cartrige for deer.

If you're physically able to do it, pick up a bow and sharp stick. The ultimate challenge. I don't want to think of the day I physically have to give it up.

If we can't talk you out of it, go with a properly sized hard cast lead bullet. Personally I feel the XTP is too soft.

That being said: "Its still a free country" for now!!!!!!
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Old May 14, 2013, 09:53 PM   #14
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Don't own a 9mm anymore but

If it were me, I would use a plated or gas check 147gr SWC pushed as fast as I could safely get it to go in your rifle. As far as "enough gun"... Thousands of deer have fallen to the rather anemic 25-20 so I am sure that your nine and a well placed shot will do the job.

out of a 14-16 in barrel you should get over 1000 fps with the right powder.

Ammoguide.com shows some 147 Rainer plated 147 gr loads.
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Old May 14, 2013, 10:07 PM   #15
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Uhmm, nittespanker. I think you mean humane, what you are is suggesting is a whole different thing. I think 9mm is probably the most popular round for human killing.
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Old May 14, 2013, 10:14 PM   #16
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A 9mm on deer? Why not? I've killed many, many deer with 22LR back when I was much younger and hunting off county roads. We'd roll the window down, spotlight the deer and pop him/her in the neck with the 22LR. No problem, most of them fell right where they stood. They were so dead they didn't know a lil ol 22 killed them.

Sure a 9mm will kill a deer. I wouldn't try a 100 yard shot or anything like that but the range the OP states is very much within reason.
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Old May 14, 2013, 11:04 PM   #17
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This very topic came up on another forum. To get higher velocity from a carbine you're going to need to use a slower burning powder. AA#9 would be a good choice if you could find the appropriate data, or call and request it from Western Powder Co. who owns both Accurate and Ramshot. The other that I have used from back in the days when the 9mm's pressure rating was 35,700 CUP was Blue Dot. I've had very good accuracy in pistols with max. charges of Blue Dot. What you need is some older data for Blue Dot like I have in the SPEER #11. Another couple of good ways to go would be with V-V 3N38 and a 147 gr. XTP and current V-V data shows a load for 1200 FPS from a 4" barrel without exceeding standard pressure. AA#7 will also do some impressive things with a 147 gr. XTP.

Personally, I believe the XTP is one of the toughest 9mm JHPs you could use and either the 124 or the 147 will work on deer at short distances. QuikLoad may show Power Pistol as having the highest velocity potential, but that is almost certainly due to current data that is a good bit lower than the older 35,700 CUP data that is very close to the rating for +P at 38,500 PSI. I have older V-V data for 3N37 with a 124 gr. jacketed bullet achieving 1295 FPS from a 4" barrel. It is in the #2 load guide and you must follow their OACL reccomendation.
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Old May 14, 2013, 11:12 PM   #18
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QuickLoad was using +P pressure estimates. I'd be surprised if Power Pistol wasn't a top performer. It's usually very close to max velocity, with 800x being right there with it. Power Pistol meters a lot better than 800x though.

QuickLoad doesn't do as well with straight wall (or nearly so) cartridges, in absolute terms, but its relative values are pretty close. In other words, the velocities/pressures might be off across the board but its top performer is probably correct even if the exact numbers aren't right.
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Old May 14, 2013, 11:20 PM   #19
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Brian, just curious but did you happen to run Blue Dot, AA#7 & 9, or 3N37 and 3N38 through QuikLoad?
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Old May 14, 2013, 11:46 PM   #20
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Quote:
...I really don't have too much to worry about as far as leading as long as I follow a day of shooting lead with a few jacketed rounds...
Be very careful with this practice. If the gun has leaded significantly before you send a jacketed round down the bore, this can damage the gun.

I've seen more than one source state that following lead bullets with jacketed rounds should never be done until the bore has been completely cleaned and the lead removed.

I've also read more than one incident of people damaging guns using this practice. Here's one.

http://thefiringline.com/forums/show...0&postcount=24
"I did shoot 300 gr Cast bullets in my Ruger 44 carbine rifle.
Then I shot a jacketed bullet.
When the jacketed bullet hit the Leading in the muzzle, it split and peeled back the muzzle like a banana. [Evidently this is common.]"
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Old May 15, 2013, 08:57 AM   #21
Brian Pfleuger
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 57K View Post
Brian, just curious but did you happen to run Blue Dot, AA#7 & 9, or 3N37 and 3N38 through QuikLoad?
It runs every powder in its database (which includes all of those) and gives a predictive rank. So, yes.

Here are it's predicted top 20:
  1. Alliant POWER PISTOL
  2. Accurate No.7
  3. Accurate No.9
  4. Vihtavuori 3N37
  5. Hodgdon HS-6
  6. Vihtavuori N350
  7. Hodgdon Longshot
  8. Alliant UNIQUE
  9. Ramshot True Blue
  10. Vihtavuori 3N38
  11. Alliant BULLSEYE
  12. Winchester WAP
  13. Ramshot Silhouette
  14. Alliant HERCO
  15. Alliant 2400
  16. Ramshot Enforcer
  17. Vihtavuori N340
  18. Alliant BLUE DOT
  19. Hodgdon Universal
  20. Vihtavuori N105

Some of these may not be realistic, as I set it to allow up to 115% compression.

Last edited by Brian Pfleuger; May 15, 2013 at 09:24 AM.
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Old May 15, 2013, 09:06 AM   #22
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On the other hand, lots of folks have been cleaning barrels with jacket bullets, after a day of shooting lead.
Including me, back when I was a regular at the action matches.
Most everyone else did, too.
During a single season of matches, this must have happened literally thousands of times, and I never saw a single mishap due to it.
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Old May 15, 2013, 10:37 AM   #23
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Quote:
How thick do you guys think a deer is?
The OP is in Idaho - this isn't some Florida deer the size of your black lab, this is most likely mule deer - they can easily go over 350-450 pounds and have a neck over 12" thick.

Carbine or not, it isn't the wisest thing to do - but if he insists, he should be looking at a minimum 147 grain and NOT a HP
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Old May 15, 2013, 10:56 AM   #24
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Come on lighten up a little. There have been far more game not killed but left to suffer and die a worse death from a poorly placed shot. I would have full faith in a 9mm rifle, not much different than hunting with a pistol. Distance and shot placement are the keys.

It is not important what I think a proper caliber is or is not. I certainly don't want to force my personal thoughts or preferences on another hunter. If it is legal then it is legal period. No mater what a hunter does or does not do will not make a anti hunter happy and most importantly I don't care what they think or do not think.

I don't hunt with a 9mm rifle nor do I own one thus I have no suggestions for you. I probably would not use one but I will fight for your right to use one.

From the few sources I have found this appears to work best.

147grain JHP +p loads at around 50 yards.

Good Luck
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Old May 15, 2013, 10:59 AM   #25
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Quote:
The OP is in Idaho - this isn't some Florida deer the size of your black lab, this is most likely mule deer - they can easily go over 350-450 pounds and have a neck over 12" thick.
In a fantasy world, maybe. Read this:
Or at least do a search for "pounds" in the document.
http://www.wildlifehc.org/new/wp-con.../Mule-Deer.pdf
----------------------------------------------


Folks, the OP and I both specifically asked that the (supposed) ethics of this hunt be left in another thread. It isn't the question. Cease and desist. Start your own thread (in the hunting forum) if you want to discuss that question.
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