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Old May 13, 2013, 09:41 AM   #26
L_Killkenny
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I see them as fun shooters, not serious rifles.
Of coarse anticipated use is the last word one such things as but pistol caliber carbines have just as much potential for serious use as any other gun. Heck, perhaps the most "serious" gun I have is a lowly 10/22 carbine. More dead things from that (actually "those") than all my other guns combined. Don't get more serious than that.

It's not the cartridge or the platform that dictates whether a gun is serious or not. For some a bolt action rifle may be a range toy and their carbine a killin gun. Lord knows they can get the job done.
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Old May 13, 2013, 01:27 PM   #27
Glenn E. Meyer
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Make a synthetic stock, SS 9mm lever gun for me!

I'd buy that.
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Old May 15, 2013, 05:08 PM   #28
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This gun is not a toy in any way. 225 GR Hornady FTX factory out of a 20 inch barrel 1800 FPS with 1740 Foot pounds. At 100 1416 FPS and 1002 FT-lbs.
If thats a toy you need to talk with my friend down the street that has the same gun and takes his limit of deer each year. The buck he got last year 350 LB and a 10 point never moved once hit.
I have a lot of pistol caliber carbines most are 9mm and I will agree that most are for fun (Beretta Storm, MP-5). And if I need a home defense gun I would pick the Beretta over most anything I have. It’s shorter than an M4 AR, very handy and easy to point.
They might be toys but they are serious toys when needed.
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Old May 15, 2013, 08:27 PM   #29
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I got a Ruger 77/44 a while back as a replacement for a Ruger .44 Carbine.

In stainless/synthetic it is really easy to pack around in the brush on the "wet side" of the Pacific Northwest, and it doesn't require as much care as the blued/walnut carbine did.

Eastern Washington? No...ranges are too great.

But I think it will work fine for close work.

It probably is a toy, compared to a real rifle. But for up to 100 yds I understand 240gr JSP's at 1800 fps are adequate.

Now all I need to do is shoot a deer with it to prove the concept...
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Old May 27, 2013, 11:45 PM   #30
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Ya know, I always liked the concept of same ammo too. And I ran a Marlin 1894/S&W 686 that way for several years, first with 125 JHP. Then later with midrange lead SWC matched to a Ruger B-hawk.

But what I found was that I rarely carried both, and even more rarely shot the combo with the 125 JHP. Too much flash and blast in the Smith to be enjoyable. The the light fast hollow point in the carbine was not really a suitable load for deer, my most common quarry. Later, t I shot the B-hawk and the carbine at paper and plinking with the mid range loads, but I never hunted the carbine as it was pretty milk toast in power.

To get from one "power band" to another required pretty major sight adjustment. I did find that 148 WC/.38's and the 125 JHP shot to same point of aim, but the WC did not feed in the carbine, and single loaded it was still pretty mild as a utility load. And I wanted a bit more punch in the hangun too.

Eventually I had enough .357's guns on hand to accomplish what ever task. The B-hawk still shoots mid range lead. The 125 JHP SD ammo goes in a M28. The carbine is set up for 158 JHP and serves as a deer/hog rifle.
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Old June 2, 2013, 09:58 PM   #31
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Pistol Caliber Rifles

I bought a used Kel-Tec Sub2000 in 9mm to accompany a Glock 23 with 9mm conversion barrel. When I brought it to the range for its first test, I experienced issues with stove pipes and FTE. I hope the LGS and the manufacturer help me solve the issue... Here are some photos of the problem..ImageUploadedByTapatalk1370228211.775786.jpgImageUploadedByTapatalk1370228244.621315.jpg
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Old June 2, 2013, 09:59 PM   #32
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Pistol Caliber Rifles

ImageUploadedByTapatalk1370228324.325309.jpg

The deformed brass says it all...
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Old June 3, 2013, 02:56 AM   #33
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Yankee...that brass makes the reloader in me want to cry.

Quote:
if I am going to carry a rifle for serious purposes, I want one in a serious rifle caliber.
I'm with SaxonPig on this. I like the idea of a rifle and pistol using the same cartridge but when it comes time to actually buy one I can't because I'd be buying and carrying a 'rifle' and not getting 'rifle' performance out of it.

That said, I've done inconsistent stuff in the past and if a .460 lever action came by that could also fire .454 and .45 Colt....well....

Something I think is ridiculous is we cannot have shoulder stocks for our handguns. For me a shoulder stock would let me realize the accuracy the handgun is capable of but I am unable to get even shooting two handed. That is it would give me some of the advantages of having a rifle but at a fraction of the cost of buying a complete rifle.
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Old June 3, 2013, 05:33 AM   #34
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pistol caliber rifles

regardless of all the opinions there is a much greater penetration of pistol ammo in a rifle. standard 45 acp from pistol will bounce off of cinder blocks i used the same ammo in a rifle and it penetrated the blocks and actually cracked the back side.
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Old June 3, 2013, 07:27 AM   #35
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No one mentioned the fiveseven and the P90?
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Old June 3, 2013, 08:58 AM   #36
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I've always wanted a levergun in .454 Casull/.45 Colt, but the very, very few in .454 don't seem to function with .45 Colt. They also only seemt o come in 20" barrels, never a handy 16". It's too bad, because the .454 is a true "carbine round," too powerful to be much fun in a handgun, but not too bad in a carbine. It's just too expensive (and powerful) to shoot all the time, so working with .45 Colt is kind of important in a practical gun.
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Old June 4, 2013, 04:21 AM   #37
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I used to want a rifle in .454 then I got a .45-70 and I forgot all about it. I can load it from mild to sort of wild and it always shoots great...

I had a .44 mag carbine for awhile and it only would shoot good with the hottest loads on book and I didn't always want that...

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Old June 6, 2013, 08:54 AM   #38
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Yeah, but you can fit twice as many rounds (well, almost) in the same length tube with a .454. If I handloaded, I actually wouldn't mind that it didn't feed .45 Colt, since I could load down a .454 instead. Thing is, I can't handload and won't be able to for at least a few years, and .45-70 isn't cheap right now either.
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Old June 6, 2013, 09:52 AM   #39
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The major exception I've found is the M1 Carbine. Most ranges prohibit its use.
every indoor range I've ever been to allows rifles up to 30 cal with non-steel core ammo traveling slower than 3200FPS, I can't imagine any indoor range with such a bug up their rears about their deflector wall that they wouldn't allow a 125gr FMJ travelling at 10mm handgun speed. they might as well ban tokarevs too.
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Old June 7, 2013, 07:49 AM   #40
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Pistols and pistol caliber rifles/carbines

I am all right with the concept and do enjoy shooting them.
I have rifle & pistol combo in 357 Mag, 44 Mag and 45 Colt.
I also have a 223 Rem T/C Contender 10 inch barrel and a Contender Carbine also in 223 Rem. I really do enjoy the 45 Colt levers and pistols. It is a fun combination to carry, a 255 GR bullet out of a 4.6 bbl Blackhawk around 1000fps, but in the 16 inch carbine, the same round is going 1600 fps., and more than enough for putting meat on the table and protection from 4 and 2 legged varmits if need be. The 44 mag and 357 mag pistol/rifle combo are just as effective

V/R
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Old June 7, 2013, 12:07 PM   #41
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I also like the concept. I have an AR15 and SR9C. I also have a enfield converted to 45ACP(work in progress, kit I used sucks) an XDM45 compact. I used to have a marlin levergun in 44 mag but decided my fam damily liked it more than I did so rather than get a revolver to match I sold it to my BIL. I guess if you really want to nit pick I also have a 22/45 and 10/22 combo.

my brother also has a ruger 357/77 and SP101 combo that he raves over.
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Old June 7, 2013, 01:52 PM   #42
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Right now I own three pistol caliber carbines.

Kel-Tec SUB2000 in .40S&W / GLOCK 22 mag
Marling 1894 CSS in .357 Magnum
Henry .22 Lever Action Rifle

The Kel-Tec is paired with my GLOCK 22 and 24. The Marlin is paired with my S&W 686 Classic Hunter and Ruger New Model Vaqeuro. Lastly the Henry is paired with a Ruger Single Six.

All are good combos and would all be good for self defense if needed. I look at firearms as tools and they all do different jobs.
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Old June 7, 2013, 05:27 PM   #43
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I have a Rossi Circuit Judge in .45 Colt/.410, but I do not have a .45 Colt handgun. My dream one day is a 45-70 BFR to go with my NEF 45-70. I'd kill for a S&W in .50 AE and a lever action rifle in .50AE but I don't have $3000 laying around for a rifle.
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Old June 10, 2013, 10:58 AM   #44
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I've always wanted a 357 lever gun. A 357 magnum from an 18.5" barrel is nipping at the heels of the 7.62x39 from an AK. That's pretty darn impressive IMO.
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Old June 10, 2013, 06:57 PM   #45
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I have a Henry to go with my Vaquero because it's a cowboy thing. However, I seen no real use for other pistol caliber carbines. If I am going to carry a rifle/carbine it will be in a caliber with better stopping power.
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Old June 10, 2013, 08:40 PM   #46
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I've had several pistol caliber carbines over time, the ones I have now won't take the same loads that my pistols like without work (OAL and bullet nose profile issues), not sure if they will at that point. I rarely ever shoot them, and never carry them. It's the same as several other mentioned, if I grab a rifle, I want the range or power a rifle represents. Even a 30-30 has a flatter practical trajectory than any of the pistol rounds in a carbine (sight in 2 1/2" high @ 100 and see the difference @ 200). Whatever I can do with a pistol caliber carbine in my neighborhood, I can do at much farther range with a 348, 30-06, 35 Whelen or 338, and I also prefer the 45-70 to pistol caliber rounds in a carbine. Places with thick woods may not be so much of a difference as regards range, or places without the larger critters with sharp edges may not need the power difference. I can see the appeal to them, for several reasons, the common ammo could be nice, and pistol calibered carbines are generally lighter, but for my uses the rifle calibers are more practical.
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Old June 11, 2013, 01:26 AM   #47
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I just got a ruger pc4. Havent shot it yet. Anyone have any experience with these?
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Old June 11, 2013, 03:19 PM   #48
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When it comes to PCC (pistol caliber carbines) I don't know anyone that purchased one for hunting (maybe a 44 Mag lever action). It comes down to fun and cheapness in the purchase of ammo.

To make a long story short, I sold off all my 40 S&W pistols and was sitting there with a ton of reloads, yes a ton. So what does one do? (Yes I know send it to you, LOL),

Well this one is a barrel of monkeys to shoot and a hell of a lot better than trying to use the same ammo in a pistol. (standard range with it 50 yards)

Jim

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Old June 11, 2013, 03:36 PM   #49
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That's why I have my 14" 30-30AI Contender. Oh wait, that's the other side of the coin. Nevermind.
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Old June 11, 2013, 04:05 PM   #50
Jim243
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^^^^^ LOL, I like that.

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The deformed brass says it all...
You have to stop using under powered reloads in that rifle, the reason those cases are all blackened is because they are under charged, by the looks of it you were trying to use light charged lead bullets There is nothing wrong with the Kel-Tec, it is the ammo you are using.

These are "blow back" operating systems in these rifles just like the Thompson Sub-Machine Gun. Your round needs to expel the bullet down the barrel and then push back the bolt held in place by a strong spring to eject the case. By using oversize lead bullets (452) with a light charge of powder, you are causing your own problems. (that's how I see it.)

Jim
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