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Old May 7, 2013, 07:54 AM   #26
BoogieMan
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Bubbablades--Is that you shooting the 460? I have the 8-3/8 model and it stays on target pretty well. Actually better than my buddies SBH or his PPS. I would love to shoot the 2" model to see the difference. I find it a pleasure to shoot, my only complaint is that I dont have more time to shoot it.
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Old May 7, 2013, 04:09 PM   #27
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The main thing I think you gain over a 44 mag with a 500 S&W or the 480 Ruger is bullet diameter. This does count for something. There are people that really love these big bores and to them the regular 44 mag loadings are pretty tame. I tolerate the recoil of the 41 mag because I really like the caliber and shoot it well. Otherwise, I wouldn't shooting anything more powerful than a 357 mag. Plus I hunt deer with handguns as well.

If I owned a Ruger Alaskan in either 44 mag or 480 Ruger, that is precisely the gun I would carry in your situation. I have no love for the 454 Casull. If I didn't, I'd carry my 4" M57 (41 mag) with hard cast bullets. HSM loads an affordable 230 gr Lead SWC gas check "Bear Load" in 41 mag, which is precisely what I would be carrying. I believe they have a similar load for 44 mag. Should be plenty in most cases. Hopefully, you will never need to find out.

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Old May 7, 2013, 05:26 PM   #28
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Quote:
I mean 600 grain Brenneke black magic slug at 1500 fps will do just as well as anything a .500 will do
The big, heavy bullets of the 500 will out penetrate the slug in a real bear, and can go end to end in most cases, it is a great gun/round combo for bear. The shotgun is more accurate in most folks hands, but not as handy ... under stress I am dubious about most hitting a fast moving bear with a handgun. I still carry my 500 sometimes in Alaska, but mostly my .458 LOTT, who cares about convenience, it is more convenient than getting dead!!!
Either is better than nothing, but the subject matter was the 500 question. In most cases most folks will not get the barrel on the bear in time, but you MUST carry anyway, if you want to survive.

PS> When I say MOST, that includes me. I have hunted and killed running jack rabbits with my Colt S.A.A. Army in 45 Colt, even killed an inflight Pheasant with it, and other fast moving game with a handgun, BUT, and there always is a but in life, THEY AIN'T A GRIZZ!!! No one knows how they will do in such a situation before actually doing it. If they say so, they are lying...
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Old May 7, 2013, 07:22 PM   #29
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The little 4" 500 is about the perfect sixgun for the high country. The 4" 500 is not too big/heavy. I carry mine all over in Montana.

I forget that I even have mine on when it is carried in a good Leather Chest Holster.



The 350 is too light for it's diameter. It is almost a round ball. It requires too much velocity to penitrate well and I found where they had tumbled..the Hollow Point 350gr ammo will give you less than 12" penitration... You would be better off with a 320gr hardcast 44mag.

But...if you raise it to a 450gr cast you have a really nice shaped bullet. It only needs to be driven 1100+/- fps to be very effective and recoil is VERY easy to manage at this velocity with the little 4" X-frame.

Loaded to full potential of 1475fps the 450's will, (without a doubt) DAMAGE your wrist, hand, and arm bones.

You have to get the loads down where you can shoot them well, and shoot them OFTEN....you always hear guys say "I could do it if I had to"...Not a chance!!!..If you can't shoot it well when you "want to"...there is NO WAY you can "do" it when you have to.


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Old May 7, 2013, 09:45 PM   #30
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The big, heavy bullets of the 500 will out penetrate the slug in a real bear
Out penetrate? I bet all of 'em will go right through any bears vitals. So which shoots through more is moot. They will all go well past the vitals of any bear.

In Alaska the Wildlife commission recommends 12 gauge with slugs for bear medicine and the 12 is very popular up there for that use.

Now you can talk about handiness, but effectiveness well no.

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Old May 8, 2013, 05:38 AM   #31
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Go big...

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May actually be safer with plain old chemical bear spray or at least try that
......When a bear has targeted you for dinner, you don't have time to try lesser forces first. Go big, be quick, be accurate!
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Old May 8, 2013, 11:50 AM   #32
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WildBill and Freedom475 know of what they speak. Slugs are a terrible choice and are only effective in myths and legends. They are terrible penetrators and even the best slugs beat the snot out of you for only mediocre performance.


Quote:
I bet all of 'em will go right through any bears vitals.
This is what some folks just can't understand. A shot through the vitals of a charging bear is worthless. You need to stop him and to do that, you much either hit the CNS or break down his support structure. Break the shoulders and the hips if possible. You want ALL the penetration you can get because a shoulder shot may very well break a hip on the way out. This is the difference between killing a bear and stopping him. Slugs just don't cut it.

The USFS recommends a 12ga with slugs NOT because they are the most effective but because they're cheap and everyone has one. Not a big deal for a neophyte to go out and buy a $200 shotgun. Much more of a commitment to buy a stopping rifle. They also make this recommendation based on a 30yr old heavily flawed and outdated study. The 220gr .30-06 CoreLokts performed very well in their test because everything else they tested sucked. Interesting that they would issue all their officers .375's if they could afford it. Funny how we tend to NOT trust the government, until it suits our argument.
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Old May 8, 2013, 04:07 PM   #33
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S&W .500 350 Gr Bullet Vs. Bears And Grizzly Bears?

I had the 4" 500. Sold it after a time an got the SRH Alaskan in 454. Sure the 500 is powerful (for a handgun) but it is stupid big an heavy for a handgun too.

I'd go for something that starts in .4 and use heavy for caliber hard cast bullets.

IMO the 500 is more of a novelty item than a working gun. I actually found myself leaving it home and favoring my Marlin 45-70. Much handier to pack a great carrying rifle than a stupid big revolver.

I still used the SRH for fishing (when a rifle is not practical).
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Old May 8, 2013, 04:25 PM   #34
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I agree. What we need is for Ruger to legitimize a standard length .500 for use in sanely sized sixguns. Even if they further shorten the .500JRH and make it a proprietary cartridge. Also to expand their selection of .480's. Make them all five-shots.
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Old May 8, 2013, 05:13 PM   #35
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This is what some folks just can't understand. A shot through the vitals of a charging bear is worthless. You need to stop him and to do that, you much either hit the CNS or break down his support structure. Break the shoulders and the hips if possible. You want ALL the penetration you can get because a shoulder shot may very well break a hip on the way out. This is the difference between killing a bear and stopping him. Slugs just don't cut it.
I'd agree with this. If a grizzly is charging you, you're not hunting the darn thing, you're trying to save your life. You don't have time for him to bleed out. If he isn't stopped in his tracks, you're going to bleed out right beside him - only quicker.

Quote:
The USFS recommends a 12ga with slugs NOT because they are the most effective but because they're cheap and everyone has one. Not a big deal for a neophyte to go out and buy a $200 shotgun. Much more of a commitment to buy a stopping rifle. They also make this recommendation based on a 30yr old heavily flawed and outdated study. The 220gr .30-06 CoreLokts performed very well in their test because everything else they tested sucked. Interesting that they would issue all their officers .375's if they could afford it. Funny how we tend to NOT trust the government, until it suits our argument.
Most slugs I've seen are very soft and poorly shaped (round). They're intended for deer, not bears.

Let's be honest about all of this though - if you have a grizzly after you, there isn't a sane person on earth who would prefer a revolver in his hands over a .375 H&H or better.
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Old May 8, 2013, 05:46 PM   #36
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You need to stop him and to do that, you much either hit the CNS or break down his support structure.
Uh... well the 'vitals' usually will have such bones in the way so yes a 12 gauge slug will do just fine. It will go through no matter what they hit.

Like I said, slugs are very popular in Alaska for bear protection and recommend by all agencies there.

Notice Brenneke Black Magic and what they do.

http://www.brenneke-munition.de/cms/blackmagic.html

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Old May 8, 2013, 08:05 PM   #37
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S&W .500 350 Gr Bullet Vs. Bears And Grizzly Bears?

Whatever you get, make sure it is something you will always carry. If it's even a little bit of a pain to haul around there is a good chance it will be at home, in the truck, in the tent or even just out of reach on that convenient stump... Only five seconds away when the bad guy bear can be on you in four seconds.

That is the only reason I'm not a 500 S&W advocate, it's a pain to keep on your person all of the time, even with a high quality holster.

Heck, even the SRH AK was a pretty big gun, just not so big that I ever felt the need to take a break from wearing it. I've grown fond of the trimmer lines of the single action flavors.
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Old May 8, 2013, 09:26 PM   #38
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Well like I posted way above, if I was to go in bear country I'd take my S&W 629 4 inch .44.



With a good hard cast heavy slug.

And if I really really thought there was a good chance of running into serious bear problems, well yea, I'd take my 18 inch barrel Mossie with some of those Black Magic slugs or some of their LEO barrier penetration slugs. And that is while I carried the .44!

http://www.brennekeusa.com/cms/max-barrier-pen.html

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Old May 8, 2013, 09:29 PM   #39
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Uh... well the 'vitals' usually will have such bones in the way so yes a 12 gauge slug will do just fine. It will go through no matter what they hit.
Different mindset, different target. You don't shoot for the center of the chest on a charging bear. You break his shoulder. You don't really care if it hits the heart or not. A heart shot will kill the bear but it's also signing your own death warrant because the bear will have ample opportunity to stomp a mudhole in your posterior orifice and walk it dry before he knows he's dead. It's not like we don't have a hundred years worth of dangerous game hunting expertise to learn from.


Quote:
It will go through no matter what they hit.
How many bears have you killed with slugs? They would have to be "magic" to defy the laws of terminal ballistics and kill like the hammer of Thor, like so many seem to believe. Even the Black Magic has a terrible sectional density. No, there's no magic. A 12ga slug will penetrate comparable to a hard cast pistol bullet of similar sectional density. Wishful thinking won't make them better than they are but I don't expect logic and reason to have any influence on the outcome of this discussion.
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Old May 9, 2013, 08:29 AM   #40
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It it was so bad... why are the recommended by every Alaskan department for bear protection? Can you answer that? Yes, no?

They even issue shotguns.

I can easily give the links to many Alaskan game departments that recommend shotguns. You want them?

Now can YOU show me examples of the 12 gauge slugs failing on bears? Can you? Yes or no?

I doubt it but I can also (Google is your friend/enemy) cases of shotguns being used to stop bear attacks successfully.

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Old May 9, 2013, 09:46 AM   #41
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Deaf smith - May want to go back and re-read newfrontier's post - he has already answered some of your questions. no need to get nasty either.
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Old May 9, 2013, 10:02 AM   #42
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Old May 9, 2013, 10:06 AM   #43
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Freedom,

He thinks a 12 gauge slug would be ineffective on a charging bear at close range (as all charging bears would be) and I feel it would be effective. It has nothing to do with if a .500 works.

kayakersteve,

When he says they recommend them cause they are 'cheap' how does he know? Did he ask them?

Could it be they yes, are cheaper than a $1000 handgun, but just as effective?

BTW they also issue .300 Winchester Magnum rifles. Are they cheap?

Look, a bear is not a Rino or Elephant. The skull is not that thick. And the ranges will be very very short.

While it's fine to use that .500 with special bullets, but most folks can get by with a simple shotgun (shades of Slow Joe Biden) in this case if they want to put up with carrying a long gun.

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Old May 9, 2013, 10:25 AM   #44
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I'm out
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Old May 9, 2013, 12:16 PM   #45
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freedom475,

50 yards? Are you sure that is the range they shoot at charging bears? Now they might see the bear to begin with at 50 yards, or hear the bear in the brush, but start shooting? Is that the average range when charged by a bear they shoot?

Did you ask the Alaska dept why the prefer 12 Gauge AND .300 WM long guns? I mean if 'easy to hit' was the reason why not .243 or .410? Or for that matter why didn't they prefer buckshot at 10 yards?

Yes a miss means a miss, so is it easier to hit with a 600 grain 1500 fps slug from a shotgun or a 350 gr 1400 fps slug from a revolver?

Again the poster questioned the effectiveness of a 12 gauge slug on a charging bear and I questioned right back.

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Old May 9, 2013, 12:45 PM   #46
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It it was so bad... why are the recommended by every Alaskan department for bear protection? Can you answer that? Yes, no?

They even issue shotguns.
Because they're cheap and plentiful and 'may' work reasonably well. They issue shotguns because .375's cost three or four times as much and are less suited to other law enforcement purposes.

For the record, what I questioned was the silly statement that a 12ga slug will do a better job than a .500. This is just dead wrong. Some folks are just convinced that shotgun slugs are the Hammer of Thor. Even when contradicted with facts. Fact, we KNOW from 100yrs of modern rifles in Africa that deep bone breaking penetration requires heavy-for-caliber, tough bullets. Shotgun slugs are heavy but not heavy enough for their diameter. Foster slugs actually have a lower sectional density than a round ball. Brenneke's have a sectional density comparable to light to middle weight pistol bullets. They 'may' look menacing to the uninitiated but have a quarter inch deep hollow skirt and a quarter inch hole all the way through them. For a 12ga slug to penetrate as well as a 440gr .500 (a 430gr .475 would be better) it would have to weigh, wait for it........940gr. Your vaunted Black Magic will penetrate like a 225gr .45Colt. You really wanna trust your life to a slug that behaves like a 225gr .45? Most would consider that too light for deer.


Quote:
I can easily give the links to many Alaskan game departments that recommend shotguns.
Again, you're trusting the government to make you choice for you???

Like I said, their testing is heavily flawed and outdated. By their results, they conclude that both the .44Mag and .45-70 are poor choices but that the 220gr .30-06 CoreLokt is excellent. This is based on outdated 240gr JHP's in the .44 and standard pressure 405gr jacketed bullets for the .45/70. Useless information. We know that in real world testing with proper loads the heavyweight hardcast loads in both the .44Mag (330-355gr) and .45/70 (405-500gr) vastly outperform 12ga slugs and even the 220gr .30-06.

The best of the 12ga slugs, the big hardcast offerings from Terminator, penetrate about like a .44Spl Keith load. Which is no surprise, they have a comparable sectional density and velocity. Except the .44 won't beat the hell out of you in the process.
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Old May 9, 2013, 02:19 PM   #47
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For the record, what I questioned was the silly statement that a 12ga slug will do a better job than a .500.
Quote:
Fact, we KNOW from 100yrs of modern rifles in Africa that deep bone breaking penetration requires heavy-for-caliber, tough bullets. Shotgun slugs are heavy but not heavy enough for their diameter.
Newfrontier,

Just as you use specialty slugs in your .500 not all 12 gauge slugs are equal.

The brenneke slugs do not expand or deform much at all. They are made that way. THEY ARE NOT 'FOSTER' SLUGS.

http://www.brennekeusa.com/cms/filea..._catalogue.pdf

Notice from the photos the brennek's don't deform like the other brands tested. Also notice the testimonial of a man who did stop a charging brown bear.

Newfrontier, your sectional density is only part of the story to penetration.

Momentum is also quite important.

And from the U.S. Forestry Service:

http://www.fs.fed.us/pnw/pubs/gtr152

Notice on short range penetration the .458 Winchester Magnum (rifle) gave 19 inches of penetration at 15 yards.

The 12 gauge, same range, using I guess a FOSTER slug (federal make) gave 15 inches of penetration. In fact it's penetration was quite good compared to all of the rifles tested and better than any handgun tested.

The best pistol they had was a .44 magnum but even with best loads it gave 14 inches and the .45 Colt load you talked about gave 13 inches (I bet the .44 magnum expand and that is why it was so low.)

No doubt your .500 would penetrate more.. but then so would the brenneke slugs since they a) weight more, b) won't deform as much, and c) are at a higher velocity.

So yea, I think the 12 gauge, with the right loads, will do better than a .500.

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Old May 9, 2013, 02:45 PM   #48
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That's the crappy old USFA testing I was talking about. Useless information. The .458 used a soft point. The fact that the swaged 255gr .45Colt load penetrated deeper than the 240gr .44Mag load clearly illustrates my point. That coupled with the fact that they scored bullets that expanded higher than those that did not also proves my point. A .458 does not need to expand to be effective. Outdated and useless.

I don't know where you've been but I've been talking about Brenneke's and Terminators all along.


Quote:
Newfrontier, your sectional density is only part of the story to penetration.
You're right, I forgot to factor in wishful thinking. Forgive me if I do not lend any credibility to anything else you have to say.


Modern penetration testing with modern guns and loads by people who know what they're doing. Note that the Terminator slugs, which are the best money can buy, penetrated comparable to the .44 Keith load (~26").

http://www.handloads.com/misc/Lineba...ts.asp?Order=5
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Old May 9, 2013, 04:18 PM   #49
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So you are saying a .458 510 gr. soft point won't penetrate a brown bears skull?

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Old May 9, 2013, 04:30 PM   #50
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Are you saying you can hit a brown bear's brain while it's charging at you???

Head shots are about the pinnacle of bear thread wishful thinking.
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