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Old May 4, 2013, 08:30 PM   #1
GunXpatriot
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Could I swing it? Buying a Gun in Another State?

First off, I realize the title of the thread may be a little questionable, but let me tell you, I don't intend on doing anything illegal whatsoever. I made it sound like I'm a gun runner or something, but absolutely not the case...

Alright, so as the vast majority of you know, us guys in NY are going through tough times right now. Well anyway, we're going to be moving to Florida in the coming years, probably the next 2. We do have a house there, but haven't been there in a while, about 5 years actually. This summer, we'll be going to check up on things and make sure everything is alright at the house, do some minor maintenance if needed, etc.

Well, while it may not be a concern for at least a little while after we won the recent gun control battle on "assault weapons", I'm sure it will come again. When we go to Florida, I was planning on buying an AR-15 that I had been wanting for a long time now. I've also been looking at a couple of handguns.

As you know, these can both be bought with ease in Florida. Here in NY, everything that looks cool is an military style high capacity plasma eviscerating hyper-cannon and of course, handguns require a permit, which is VERY aggravating to actually get...

Now of course, I DO NOT plan on bringing these back to NY, as both would be highly illegal, or well, just illegal in general. I would like to just leave them in the house, hidden somewhere, locked, and leave the de-humidifier on.

So suppose I walk into a local FFL near my FL house, want to buy a few specific firearms and show them a NY license... What do you think they would say? I mean, I guess I could explain my intention, and if they ran a background check, it would come up 1000% clean. Even still, do you think I could swing this? I don't think this breaks any law, unless you actually bring the items to a state where it is illegal, but I could be wrong. Does anyone else have experience with something like this?

I don't mean for this to be malicious in any way, and like I said, I don't want to do anything illegal. Thanks for any help you can give me.
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Old May 4, 2013, 08:38 PM   #2
Plumbnut
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I live in Alabama and buy long guns in Florida and Mississippi. No problem.

I can buy pistols also but they are sent to a FFL holder in Alabama.

Maybe this helps you some.???

I dont think a Florida FFl dealer would care what state you live in as long as you do not tell him your going to take the gun back to New York.

Easy enough to call a FFL dealer in Florida and ask or maybe one is on the forum.
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Old May 4, 2013, 08:44 PM   #3
JWT
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You cannot buy a handgun from an out of state dealer and take possession of it in a state that is not your residence. You can buy one and have it delivered to a FFL in your home state and take possession there after completing the NICS paperwork (that's what you're doing with on line purchases).

Long guns may be purchased out of state.
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Old May 4, 2013, 08:48 PM   #4
zoomie
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Read the federal law for yourself. Being a NY resident makes you a unique snowflake, so take advice from others carefully.

Quote:
(b) It shall be unlawful for any licensed importer, licensed manufacturer, licensed dealer, or licensed collector to sell or deliver
(1) ...
(2) ...
(3) any firearm to any person who the licensee knows or has reasonable cause to believe does not reside in ... the State in which the licensee’s place of business is located, except that this paragraph (A) shall not apply to the sale or delivery of any rifle or shotgun to a resident of a State other than a State in which the licensee’s place of business is located if the transferee meets in person with the transferor to accomplish the transfer, and the sale, delivery, and receipt fully comply with the legal conditions of sale in both such States (and any licensed manufacturer, importer or dealer shall be presumed, for purposes of this subparagraph, in the absence of evidence to the contrary, to have had actual knowledge of the State laws and published ordinances of both States), and (B) shall not apply to the loan or rental of a firearm to any person for temporary use for lawful sporting purposes;
http://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/18/922

NYS law might have more about her residents buying out of state (non-contiguous states or some such nonsense). I'm not looking that one up for you.
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Old May 4, 2013, 09:01 PM   #5
Frank Ettin
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GunXpatriot
...Now of course, I DO NOT plan on bringing these back to NY, as both would be highly illegal, or well, just illegal in general. I would like to just leave them in the house, hidden somewhere, locked, and leave the de-humidifier on.

So suppose I walk into a local FFL near my FL house, want to buy a few specific firearms and show them a NY license... What do you think they would say? I mean, I guess I could explain my intention, and if they ran a background check, it would come up 1000% clean. Even still, do you think I could swing this? I don't think this breaks any law, unless you actually bring the items to a state where it is illegal, but I could be wrong. Does anyone else have experience with something like this?...
You've really touched on two issues under federal law: interstate transfer of a firearm; and possible dual residency.
  1. Interstate Transfer

    Here's the federal law story on interstate transfers of firearms (not including the rules for those with Curio and Relic licenses and the subject of dual residency):

    [1] Under federal law, any transfer (with a few, narrow exceptions, e. g., by bequest under a will) from a resident of one State to a resident of another must be through an FFL. The transfer must comply with all the requirements of the State in which the transfer is being done as well as all federal formalities (e. g., completion of a 4473, etc.).

    [2] In the case of handguns, it must be an FFL in the transferee's State of residence. You may obtain a handgun in a State other than your State of residence, BUT it must be shipped by the transferor to an FFL in your State of residence to transfer the handgun to you.

    [3] In the case of long guns, it may be any FFL as long as (1) the long gun is legal in the transferee's State of residence; and (2) the transfer complies with the laws of the State in which it takes place; and (3) the transfer complies with the law of the transferee's State of residence.

    [4] In connection with the transfer of a long gun, some FFLs will not want to handle the transfer to a resident of another State, because they may be uncertain about the laws of that State. And if the transferee resides in some States (e. g., California), the laws of the State may be such that an out-of-state FFL will not be able to conduct a transfer that complies.

    [5] There are no exceptions under the applicable federal laws for gifts, whether between relatives or otherwise, nor is there any exception for transactions between relatives.

    [6] The relevant federal laws may be found at: 18 USC 922(a)(3); 18 USC 922(a)(5); and 18 USC 922(b)(3).

    Here's what the statutes say:
    Quote:
    18 U.S.C. 922. Unlawful acts

    (a) It shall be unlawful—
    ...

    (3) for any person, other than a licensed importer, licensed manufacturer, licensed dealer, or licensed collector to transport into or receive in the State where he resides (or if the person is a corporation or other business entity, the State where it maintains a place of business) any firearm purchased or otherwise obtained by such person outside that State, except that this paragraph
    (A) shall not preclude any person who lawfully acquires a firearm by bequest or intestate succession in a State other than his State of residence from transporting the firearm into or receiving it in that State, if it is lawful for such person to purchase or possess such firearm in that State,

    (B) shall not apply to the transportation or receipt of a firearm obtained in conformity with subsection (b)(3) of this section, and (C) shall not apply to the transportation of any firearm acquired in any State prior to the effective date of this chapter;
    ...

    (5) for any person (other than a licensed importer, licensed manufacturer, licensed dealer, or licensed collector) to transfer, sell, trade, give, transport, or deliver any firearm to any person (other than a licensed importer, licensed manufacturer, licensed dealer, or licensed collector) who the transferor knows or has reasonable cause to believe does not reside in (or if the person is a corporation or other business entity, does not maintain a place of business in) the State in which the transferor resides; except that this paragraph shall not apply to
    (A) the transfer, transportation, or delivery of a firearm made to carry out a bequest of a firearm to, or an acquisition by intestate succession of a firearm by, a person who is permitted to acquire or possess a firearm under the laws of the State of his residence, and

    (B) the loan or rental of a firearm to any person for temporary use for lawful sporting purposes;
    ....

    (b) It shall be unlawful for any licensed importer, licensed manufacturer, licensed dealer, or licensed collector to sell or deliver --
    ...

    (3) any firearm to any person who the licensee knows or has reasonable cause to believe does not reside in (or if the person is a corporation or other business entity, does not maintain a place of business in) the State in which the licensee's place of business is located, except that this paragraph
    (A) shall not apply to the sale or delivery of any rifle or shotgun to a resident of a State other than a State in which the licensee's place of business is located if the transferee meets in person with the transferor to accomplish the transfer, and the sale, delivery, and receipt fully comply with the legal conditions of sale in both such States (and any licensed manufacturer, importer or dealer shall be presumed, for purposes of this subparagraph, in the absence of evidence to the contrary, to have had actual knowledge of the State laws and published ordinances of both States), and

    (B) shall not apply to the loan or rental of a firearm to any person for temporary use for lawful sporting purposes;
    ...
  2. Dual Residency

    Under federal law, "State of Residency" is defined as follows (27 CFR 478.11):
    Quote:
    State of residence. The State in which an individual resides. An individual resides in a State if he or she is present in a State with the intention of making a home in that State. If an individual is on active duty as a member of the Armed Forces, the individual's State of residence is the State in which his or her permanent duty station is located. An alien who is legally in the United States shall be considered to be a resident of a State only if the alien is residing in the State and has resided in the State for a period of at least 90 days prior to the date of sale or delivery of a firearm. The following are examples that illustrate this definition:

    Example 1.

    A maintains a home in State X. A travels to State Y on a hunting, fishing, business, or other type of trip. A does not become a resident of State Y by reason of such trip.

    Example 2.

    A is a U.S. citizen and maintains a home in State X and a home in State Y. A resides in State X except for weekends or the summer months of the year and in State Y for the weekends or the summer months of the year. During the time that A actually resides in State X, A is a resident of State X, and during the time that A actually resides in State Y, A is a resident of State Y.

    Example 3.

    A, an alien, travels on vacation or on a business trip to State X. Regardless of the length of time A spends in State X, A does not have a State of residence in State X. This is because A does not have a home in State X at which he has resided for at least 90 days.
  3. If you are now starting to live in your house in Florida part of the year, you would under federal law be a resident of Florida when actually present and living in Florida.

    Your challenge when trying to buy a gun from a Florida FFL would, however, be establishing that you are a bona fide resident of Florida. That is usually done with a Driver's License and utility bills. But I suspect that you will want to be keeping your New York DL.

    You could look into getting a Florida ID card. You could also discuss matters with a Florida dealer to see what sort of proof of residency would be acceptable.

  4. If you are not living part time in Florida, but only visiting, under federal law you might still be able to buy long guns at a Florida FFL. But to do so, the transfer would need to comply with New York law.

    I'm not familiar with requirements of New York law for the transfer of a long gun, but you might be.
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Old May 4, 2013, 09:47 PM   #6
BigD_in_FL
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You might also look into getting a non-resident FL CCW
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Old May 4, 2013, 09:54 PM   #7
Frank Ettin
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BigDinFL
You might also look into getting a non-resident FL CCW
That can be a useful thing to have, but it won't help him buy a gun in Florida.
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Old May 4, 2013, 11:44 PM   #8
Nickel Plated
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I was in exactly the same situation.

I live in NYC (where everything requires a permit. Shotgun, rifle, muzzleloader, you name it, there's a permit needed. An expensive pain-in-the-ass to get permit.) However we have a home in PA so I figured I could go to PA and buy some guns there (long guns only of course since handguns can't be purchased directly from another state) as long as I do not take them back to NYC it is all perfectly legal. So I purchased a shotgun and keep it in PA for busting clays when we go up there once in a while.

Two things to consider:

1) While it's legal. Many places will not be willing to put their FFL license at risk over your line of "But I promise not to take it to NY" which could very well be BS as far as they know. Big chain stores like WalMart, Cabellas, Bass Pro, etc. will generally want nothing to do with you. Try the smaller mom and pop shops. Some will refuse you as well but it's your best bet. That's where I got mine.

2) You can really only get non-evil guns like this. No AR-15 since those are illegal to buy in NYS and by Fed law, the gun must be legal in your home state as well as the state where you buy for the deal to be legit.

In short, yes it can be done. But not with assault weapons and make sure you have a good list of local small gun shops to visit till you find one that's willing to work with you.
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Old May 5, 2013, 12:05 PM   #9
g.willikers
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If, under the rules of dual residency, can't the OP buy guns privately, from a Florida individual?
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Old May 5, 2013, 12:27 PM   #10
Aguila Blanca
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nickel Plated
2) You can really only get non-evil guns like this. No AR-15 since those are illegal to buy in NYS and by Fed law, the gun must be legal in your home state as well as the state where you buy for the deal to be legit.
If you are buying in the "vacation" state on the basis of dual residency, this is incorrect. You are buying in the vacation state as a resident of that state, in which case the laws pertaining in your other state of residency don't apply and don't matter.

If, on the other hand, you are buying a long gun as an "out of state" buyer, then the firearm (and the transaction) must be legal in both the state where the sale takes place and in your state of residence. But this is not a dual residency purchase, and you don't need to own a home in the second state to make this type of purchase.

See the explanation of dual residency in the latter part of Frank Ettin's post #5.
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Old May 5, 2013, 05:50 PM   #11
Nickel Plated
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That is true. Dual residency gives you much more options. I just figured that without a FL drivers license or any real official proof that you live there. Most shops won't buy your story of dual residency.
Just looking at it from a practical point of view.
Especially with all the stories of Bloomberg sending his people to other states to make trouble for gun dealers. I imagine most of them would be very wary of dealing with NY'ers under such "questionable" circumstances.
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Old May 6, 2013, 12:47 AM   #12
medalguy
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Talk to the dealer you intend to buy from and see what he wants as far as residency proof. I also live in 2 states and used my property deed and two utility bills as proof of residency in my second state. Soon thereafter I acquired a state issued ID card for the second state, and that works like a charm with any dealer.

Federal law says you are a resident of a state whenever you are residing in that state. If you move from state #1 to state #2 and the next day what to purrchase a firearm, you're good. There's no minimum time requirement. All you need to do is provide proof of residency in the second state.
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Old May 6, 2013, 07:30 AM   #13
Aguila Blanca
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Quote:
Originally Posted by medalguy
Federal law says you are a resident of a state whenever you are residing in that state. If you move from state #1 to state #2 and the next day what to purrchase a firearm, you're good. There's no minimum time requirement. All you need to do is provide proof of residency in the second state.
Correct. If you refer to the information Frank Ettin cited from the BATFE FAQ, it's pretty clear that you are a resident of the second state even if you only go there for weekends.

Quote:
Example 2.

A is a U.S. citizen and maintains a home in State X and a home in State Y. A resides in State X except for weekends or the summer months of the year and in State Y for the weekends or the summer months of the year. During the time that A actually resides in State X, A is a resident of State X, and during the time that A actually resides in State Y, A is a resident of State Y.
The key here seems to be that you must own your own second home in the second state. Renting a vacation house in Maine for two weeks does not qualify you as a resident of Maine for those two weeks.

Last edited by Aguila Blanca; May 6, 2013 at 11:42 AM. Reason: typo
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Old May 6, 2013, 07:36 AM   #14
zoomie
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Could I swing it? Buying a Gun in Another State?

The OP is not a snowbird. He hasn't been to his FL home in 5 years. Calling him a dual resident is a stretch.

Just wait until you actually move then buy whatever you want with your new FL credentials.
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Old May 6, 2013, 08:07 AM   #15
Skans
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The short answer is "no". As it is right now, you are simply not a resident of Florida. It's no different than you buying firearms in Mississippi. Establish residency and then it would be no problem. In fact, the tax laws are far more favorable in Florida, I don't know why anyone would have residency in NY if they have a place in Florida. Oh, beware even if you establish residency, NY will still try to tax your income on a pro-rata basis for the number of days you spend in NY.
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Old May 6, 2013, 10:42 AM   #16
lcpiper
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Just to cover the bases, are you by chance authorized access to the Post Exchange systems on Military Bases?
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Old May 6, 2013, 10:52 AM   #17
Frank Ettin
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Quote:
Originally Posted by zoomie
The OP is not a snowbird. He hasn't been to his FL home in 5 years. Calling him a dual resident is a stretch....
Until he actually starts living in his home in Florida at least part of the year. As I wrote in post 5:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Frank Ettin
...If you are now starting to live in your house in Florida part of the year, you would under federal law be a resident of Florida when actually present and living in Florida...
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Old May 6, 2013, 11:04 AM   #18
Dashunde
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Frank, if your moving there soon anyway, just establish residency in Florida, complete with drivers license and vehicle registration.
There are additional benefits to it in the way of property taxes too, so I hear...

Aside from that, some of the shops down there might be accustomed to folks having summer and winter homes and the associated complications.
Perhaps just a copy of the deed or proof of property/home ownership there could be enough to complete a proper sale?
Call around to the local shops and see what they say.
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