The Firing Line Forums

Go Back   The Firing Line Forums > The Conference Center > General Discussion Forum

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old May 7, 2013, 07:48 PM   #51
Doc Intrepid
Senior Member
 
Join Date: May 22, 2009
Location: Washington State
Posts: 835
Quote:
Originally Posted by Alabama Shooter
"That would be the point of the background checks. To help prevent an unintentional transfer to a prohibited person by "most people"."
and background checks would most certainly accomplish that objective for all those US citizens who submit themselves to background checks.

the point is, however, that US citizens who have no issues submitting themselves to background checks are rarely the ones committing gun crime.

If you are an individual who routinely commits gun crime, you don't obtain your firearms from Dicks Sporting Goods or Cabelas. You go to a guy who is selling stolen guns. They're cheap, they're hot, they're disposable - use them (or 'borrow them') and then turn them over to some other criminal.

So background checks don't prevent bad buys from getting guns, because bad guys - being bad - don't get their guns from sources that require background checks.

Hence, background checks generally target only the good guys - because good guys don't have issues walking up and submitting to background checks.



There are numerous studies published identifying, via interviews with convicted felons, where they obtained the firearms they used. It's too bad these aren't more widely distributed - because not surprisingly, very few felons went to the local gunstore to buy the guns they used.
__________________
Treat everyone you meet with dignity and respect....but have a plan to kill them just in case.
Doc Intrepid is offline  
Old May 7, 2013, 07:59 PM   #52
Plumbnut
Junior member
 
Join Date: April 28, 2013
Posts: 219
Quote:
So background checks don't prevent bad buys from getting guns, because bad guys - being bad - don't get their guns from sources that require background checks.
Thank you very much and you are correct

Bad guys can and do buy from private sells. Out of the newspaper,craigslist(even though craigslist removes the listing if they find it) and just from anyone who has a gun for sale that not a FFL.

If you as a private seller of a gun was required to make the buyer of your gun pass a background check it would limit the places a bad guy could buy a gun......and it certainly wouldn't be from a law abiding citizen because a law abiding citizen would require a background check.

This puts the criminal in a box so to say......he would have to buy a gun from another criminal or steal it. He couldn't buy from a store or a legal private sell.
Plumbnut is offline  
Old May 7, 2013, 08:15 PM   #53
Brian Pfleuger
Staff
 
Join Date: June 25, 2008
Location: Central, Southern NY, USA
Posts: 18,789
Quote:
There are numerous studies published identifying, via interviews with convicted felons, where they obtained the firearms they used. It's too bad these aren't more widely distributed - because not surprisingly, very few felons went to the local gunstore to buy the guns they used.
DOJ just released their report...

http://bjs.gov/content/pub/pdf/fv9311.pdf

Less than 1 in 10 criminals bought their guns in any kind of a store.... note that they are ALREADY subject to background checks. Only 12% were acquired from family/friends in a manner that would require a background check under proposed rules.

Combined, at least 75% of the criminal acquisitions would be entirely unaffected by expanded background checks. So, 3 out of 4 criminals would get their guns exactly the same way they do today. On the other hand, every single private transaction between two law-abiding citizens WOULD be stopped.
__________________
Still happily answering to the call-sign Peetza.
---
The problem, as you so eloquently put it, is choice.
-The Architect
-----
He is no fool who gives what he can not keep to gain what he can not lose.
-Jim Eliott, paraphrasing Philip Henry.
Brian Pfleuger is offline  
Old May 7, 2013, 09:11 PM   #54
Wreck-n-Crew
Senior Member
 
Join Date: March 8, 2013
Location: Ohio
Posts: 1,378
The largest miscalculation in their 90%, is the large percentage of pro gun law supporters who trust the government even less than they do their own ideals.

I believe for them to pass any such background check or anti-gun law they will have to do so without the support of the majority of Americans.

Even with that being said i have little faith that the of support from pro-gun people against such law, Splashed across national headlines, ( we know that will never happen even if proven) would neither slow their effort nor change their vote.

Adding to that, should it happen I doubt very seriously the supporters of the second amendment can or will mount a large enough rebuttal to render an appeal process as long as the passage of the new law doesn't affect the majority of gun owners.


I would submit the many laws that have been passed without the support of the majority of the American people and the strongest of which are used for little more than a smoke screen proposed as a true stance on belief or values in trade for the almighty vote.

Just as a note for reference i believe the patient were testing waters to see if the water is warm enough yet. They will be back.
__________________
If you ever have to use a firearm, you don't get to pick the scenario!

Last edited by Wreck-n-Crew; May 7, 2013 at 09:19 PM.
Wreck-n-Crew is offline  
Old May 7, 2013, 09:29 PM   #55
Wreck-n-Crew
Senior Member
 
Join Date: March 8, 2013
Location: Ohio
Posts: 1,378
Quote:
Less than 1 in 10 criminals bought their guns in any kind of a store
Just out of curiosity, of those less than 10%, how many were first time serious offenders with a firearm.

Have to admit it's not uncommon for a spouse to use a weapon in a domestic dispute. Maybe i should strike that, might be ammo for the anti's.

On a serious note, they will find anyway they can to skew the numbers.

Maybe another bias poll to throw in the water and call it kool-aid.
__________________
If you ever have to use a firearm, you don't get to pick the scenario!
Wreck-n-Crew is offline  
Old May 8, 2013, 03:42 AM   #56
NWPilgrim
Senior Member
 
Join Date: September 29, 2008
Location: Oregon
Posts: 2,150
Gun Control Supporters Launch Frenzied Campaign

I suspect that 10% who committed gun crimes and bought from a store were previously law abiding and that gun crime was their first violent crime. That is why they paid full retail and did a BC check. No expansion of NC will prevent those first time crimes (crimes of passion, etc).

However, the long time criminal cannot pass a BC and laughs at paying retail prices. ALERT! These criminals that can't pass BC currently get their guns now anyway! It is via private transaction with other criminals at much cheaper prices.

Expanding background checks will have ZERO impact on gun crimes by either previously law abiding citizens or hardened criminals.

I have noticed a frenzy of new members on several firearms forums immediately jump in with stubborn support for UBC and other "reasonable" gun laws. They all claim to be fervent gun owners. We know for a fact that George Soros and others fund astroturf organizations to try to disrupt internet forums. Something to consider when reading threads. I think TFL treats all forum members, whether sincere or not, with much more respect than if one of us tried to do the same on some of the frenzied gun grabber friendly forums.
NWPilgrim is offline  
Old May 8, 2013, 07:38 AM   #57
Wreck-n-Crew
Senior Member
 
Join Date: March 8, 2013
Location: Ohio
Posts: 1,378
Quote:
We know for a fact that George Soros and others fund astroturf organizations to try to disrupt internet forums.
Try as they may their efforts will be futile here @ the firing line. The Admins are efficient in striking erroneous post quickly and efficiently
__________________
If you ever have to use a firearm, you don't get to pick the scenario!
Wreck-n-Crew is offline  
Old May 8, 2013, 08:31 AM   #58
Alabama Shooter
Senior Member
 
Join Date: December 20, 2012
Location: Sweet Home
Posts: 886
Quote:
If you are an individual who routinely commits gun crime, you don't obtain your firearms from Dicks Sporting Goods or Cabelas. You go to a guy who is selling stolen guns. They're cheap, they're hot, they're disposable - use them (or 'borrow them') and then turn them over to some other criminal.
Or just log on to Guns America, pick out what I want meet a private seller in my area and pay cash. I can have a gun the same day. I could even buy one from you and you would never know the difference.

Quote:
DOJ just released their report...
Looks like they are using the same discredited study from nine years ago on how criminals get their guns.
__________________
Tomorrow is the most important thing in life. Comes into us at midnight very clean. It's perfect when it arrives and it puts itself in our hands. It hopes we've learned something from yesterday.
Alabama Shooter is offline  
Old May 8, 2013, 08:36 AM   #59
zukiphile
Senior Member
 
Join Date: December 13, 2005
Posts: 1,653
Quote:
Originally Posted by Plumbnut
Bad guys can and do buy from private sells. Out of the newspaper,craigslist(even though craigslist removes the listing if they find it) and just from anyone who has a gun for sale that not a FFL.
Yet, most of these transactions presumably are amongst good guys, not bad guys. Accordingly, most of the burden of this regulation will rest on people doing no harm.

A universal background check is not narrowly tailored.
zukiphile is offline  
Old May 8, 2013, 12:46 PM   #60
Alabama Shooter
Senior Member
 
Join Date: December 20, 2012
Location: Sweet Home
Posts: 886
Quote:
Yet, most of these transactions presumably are amongst good guys, not bad guys. Accordingly, most of the burden of this regulation will rest on people doing no harm.
Correct. The vast majority of private sales are likely perfectly legal and not to prohibited people.
__________________
Tomorrow is the most important thing in life. Comes into us at midnight very clean. It's perfect when it arrives and it puts itself in our hands. It hopes we've learned something from yesterday.
Alabama Shooter is offline  
Old May 8, 2013, 02:31 PM   #61
NWPilgrim
Senior Member
 
Join Date: September 29, 2008
Location: Oregon
Posts: 2,150
Gun Control Supporters Launch Frenzied Campaign

Quote:
Originally Posted by Alabama Shooter View Post
Correct. The vast majority of private sales are likely perfectly legal and not to prohibited people.
Exactly. Thugs don't pay retail or legal market prices. They buy cheap from other thugs or steal it themselves.
NWPilgrim is offline  
Old May 8, 2013, 02:35 PM   #62
Alabama Shooter
Senior Member
 
Join Date: December 20, 2012
Location: Sweet Home
Posts: 886
Quote:
Exactly. Thugs don't pay retail or legal market prices. They buy cheap from other thugs or steal it themselves
Maybe, maybe not.

All I am saying is that I believe that the vast majority of gun sales are perfectly legal.
__________________
Tomorrow is the most important thing in life. Comes into us at midnight very clean. It's perfect when it arrives and it puts itself in our hands. It hopes we've learned something from yesterday.
Alabama Shooter is offline  
Old May 8, 2013, 04:38 PM   #63
Tom Servo
Staff
 
Join Date: September 27, 2008
Location: Foothills of the Appalachians
Posts: 10,341
Apparently, this is what a "frenzied campaign" and a "blitz of action" looks like.

They couldn't muster up more than 30 or so people to protest the NRA Annual Meeting the same year as a major gun-control push.
__________________
Sometimes it’s nice not to destroy the world for a change.
--Randall Munroe
Tom Servo is offline  
Old May 8, 2013, 06:45 PM   #64
bumnote
Senior Member
 
Join Date: October 13, 2008
Location: Northern Virginia
Posts: 366
Quote:
Apparently, this is what a "frenzied campaign" and a "blitz of action" looks like.
It's also a few miles from the convention site.
__________________
"And remember, Abraham Lincoln didn't die in vain, he died in Washington D.C." - Firesign Theatre
bumnote is offline  
Old May 8, 2013, 07:32 PM   #65
Wreck-n-Crew
Senior Member
 
Join Date: March 8, 2013
Location: Ohio
Posts: 1,378
Quote:
Apparently, this is what a "frenzied campaign" and a "blitz of action" looks like.

They couldn't muster up more than 30 or so people to protest the NRA Annual Meeting the same year as a major gun-control push.
very encouraging. Almost as good as the gun control legislation failing
__________________
If you ever have to use a firearm, you don't get to pick the scenario!
Wreck-n-Crew is offline  
Old May 8, 2013, 08:24 PM   #66
Tom Servo
Staff
 
Join Date: September 27, 2008
Location: Foothills of the Appalachians
Posts: 10,341
Quote:
It's also a few miles from the convention site.
Yep, but they've still got us quaking in our boots. From their rather remote distance.
__________________
Sometimes it’s nice not to destroy the world for a change.
--Randall Munroe
Tom Servo is offline  
Old May 9, 2013, 07:53 AM   #67
Alabama Shooter
Senior Member
 
Join Date: December 20, 2012
Location: Sweet Home
Posts: 886
Quote:
They couldn't muster up more than 30 or so people to protest the NRA Annual Meeting the same year as a major gun-control push.
Well, it was Texas. When I worked out there a few years ago Ben And Jerry's tried to hold a war protest outside a recruiting station in a shopping mall. In about a 10,000 square mile area one guy showed up. There were about a two dozen counter protestors and four mall security officers who escorted the protestor out of the mall for trespassing to the clapping crowd who then peaceably dispersed. Certain kinds of protests just don't go in Texas.
__________________
Tomorrow is the most important thing in life. Comes into us at midnight very clean. It's perfect when it arrives and it puts itself in our hands. It hopes we've learned something from yesterday.
Alabama Shooter is offline  
Old May 9, 2013, 05:58 PM   #68
bumnote
Senior Member
 
Join Date: October 13, 2008
Location: Northern Virginia
Posts: 366
Quote:
Well, it was Texas
At the last big gun show up here in Northern VA, which isn't nearly as gun-friendly as the rest of the state and with Maryland and DC are just a few miles away, 10's of thousands of people came out to attend the event...and in spite of all the hoopla and media coverage in the days leading up to it, less than a dozen protesters.
I honestly believe they don't have the numbers they claim, the polls I seriously doubt are accurate and the midterm elections I believe is going to shock them. My gut is telling me there's going to be fallout for many who voted for the latest round of bills. Doesn't mean we should rest easy or not keep our guard up at all, but I just don't think they have the backing of the numbers they claim or the voters needed to keep some of the politicians in office.

Voting is the best form of protesting, it's the one politicians understand best.
__________________
"And remember, Abraham Lincoln didn't die in vain, he died in Washington D.C." - Firesign Theatre
bumnote is offline  
Old May 10, 2013, 08:58 AM   #69
Kimio
Senior Member
 
Join Date: January 2, 2011
Location: Utah
Posts: 889
Only time will tell, I sure hope the pro gun community still has the energy and will to actually send a very clear message come the mid term elections when they finally do come up. I just wish places like California would finally have the opportunity to get Feinstein out of office so we can all be relieved from having to hear her ranting on about her draconic gun laws and such.

Until then though, keep up the pressure folks, we've got at least another three years of hot water to tread through, and even more if we get another anti gun administration voted into office come 2016.
Kimio is offline  
Old May 10, 2013, 09:11 AM   #70
JWT
Senior Member
 
Join Date: March 16, 2007
Location: Tucson, AZ
Posts: 3,148
The Vice President continues to talk gun control on a regular basis. As long as people with his visability continue to call for action the issue isn't going to cool down at all.
JWT is offline  
Old May 10, 2013, 09:22 AM   #71
Kimio
Senior Member
 
Join Date: January 2, 2011
Location: Utah
Posts: 889
Sadly, no it won't, which is why all of us need to remain vigilant and be sure to call out the BS that the anti gunners spew wherever and whenever it pops up, prefereably as loudly (and civilily/intelligently) as possible.

My biggest fear is that the pro-gun community will get laxed or will lose steam and we'll suddenly find ourselves making "compromises" just like in the past. Which I am vehemently against "Not one step back" is the stance I believe we should take.

No new gun control legislation, period end of story. There is no discussion on the matter, send our tax dollars to something that will actually benefit the nation, for example, solutions to hep with our staggeringly high national deficit.
Kimio is offline  
Old May 10, 2013, 11:00 AM   #72
Alabama Shooter
Senior Member
 
Join Date: December 20, 2012
Location: Sweet Home
Posts: 886
Quote:
The Vice President continues to talk gun control on a regular basis.
Hope he keeps talking. The longer he talks the more self inflicted wounds they will suffer.
__________________
Tomorrow is the most important thing in life. Comes into us at midnight very clean. It's perfect when it arrives and it puts itself in our hands. It hopes we've learned something from yesterday.
Alabama Shooter is offline  
Old May 15, 2013, 08:26 AM   #73
Bartholomew Roberts
Senior Member
 
Join Date: June 12, 2000
Location: Texas and Oklahoma area
Posts: 5,680
One important point to note is that NICS must be reauthorized by Congress this year in order to continue operations. Clearly, that is going to be a good opportunity for future shenanigans.
Bartholomew Roberts is offline  
Old May 15, 2013, 09:18 AM   #74
Skans
Senior Member
 
Join Date: November 20, 2008
Posts: 7,849
With: 1) the IRS fiasco; 2) DOJ targeting the News Media fiasco; and the Benghazi coverup, the tide has turned (I believe in a big way) against any more legislation providing for government intrusion into private lives. This means anti-gun legislation is dead. For now. Until some other idiot does something stupid with a gun. The Antis have lost all traction, they just don't realize it yet.
Skans is offline  
Old May 15, 2013, 09:32 AM   #75
LewSchiller
Senior Member
 
Join Date: February 21, 2013
Location: Metro Denver Colorado
Posts: 227
Indeed - these scandals are actually getting some attention but they won't cause permanent damage (IMO). As was written over at Breitbart.Com, this will be a lovers quarrel with the media - not a divorce.

They are, though, ammunition for 2014 and that's good.
__________________
"When the Going gets Weird the Weird Turn Pro"
Hunter S. Thompson
LewSchiller is offline  
Reply

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 06:44 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
This site and contents, including all posts, Copyright © 1998-2014 S.W.A.T. Magazine
Copyright Complaints: Please direct DMCA Takedown Notices to the registered agent: thefiringline.com
Contact Us
Page generated in 0.13861 seconds with 7 queries