The Firing Line Forums

Go Back   The Firing Line Forums > Hogan's Alley > Tactics and Training

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old May 3, 2013, 09:46 PM   #1
dakota.potts
Senior Member
 
Join Date: February 25, 2013
Location: Saint Augustine, Florida
Posts: 1,159
Hypothetical question

The other day, I was riding with the guitarist and singer in my band (driver and front passenger seat respectively). We were coming downhill in the rain and he didn't brake hard enough and we tapped the car in front of us. It was a tiny love tap, but a tap nonetheless. The passenger, a fairly large man, got out of the seat and stared very angrily at us before leaning back into the car to retrieve something. We live in one of the cities with the highest murder rates and crime rates and it was a fairly bad part of town so it flashed through my mind that the man may be going for a weapon of sorts.

I wished then that I had a gun with me but I'm not old enough. Just in case things had gone that way. These kinds of incidents (specifically road rage induced homicides) are fairly common here.

The woman ended up requesting 911 assistance which involved 2 police units, 2 ambulances, and a firetruck. The police were very friendly toward us. They were very tired of the woman (who insisted that we had damaged her badly). They noted that there was no damage to either car, neither airbag went off, and all 3 of us were fine and reported no damages. He gave the driver a ticket (his first ticket) for reckless driving as he was legally obliged to (we're an at-fault state). The ticket was almost $200 and he stated that even if he paid it, his insurance would likely pay the woman out. Here he added that this would happen "whether it was legitimate or not" and rolled his eyes.

Anyways, as I played through a lot of scenarios I wondered something. In my state there's a challenge that would make open carry a constitutional right. When I turn 18 I would have no choice but to do this until I was old enough to apply for a CCP.

If I had gotten out of the car with a handgun on my hip to talk to the cop, would I have been treated differently? Had the passenger of the other car seen it, might he have been able to state I had made a threat? Could the vehicular collision be considered an assault if a handgun was in the car at the time?

I'm not saying that legally it would affect things, but given that the cops were friendly and helpful in reducing our involvement with the incident, is it possible that might have changed? Would the cops and paramedics there have handled it differently out of precaution?

I'm just trying to prepare myself the best I can to make the transition to a responsible carrier so that involves a lot of these hypothetical situations.
dakota.potts is online now  
Old May 4, 2013, 08:52 AM   #2
Vanya
Staff
 
Join Date: July 7, 2008
Location: Upper midwest
Posts: 3,877
Good question. My first thought is that if I were open carrying, I would stay in the car until the police arrived, tell them about the gun, and ask them how they wanted me to proceed. Safest for everybody that way, including you. If you don't leave the car, it would be really hard for the other driver to claim you were threatening him -- for one thing, if you stay in the car, he won't know you're armed.

I'm not a lawyer, but I don't think that having a handgun in the car would change how the accident would be regarded legally.
__________________
"Once the writer in every individual comes to life (and that time is not far off), we are in for an age of universal deafness and lack of understanding."
(Milan Kundera, Book of Laughter and Forgetting, 1980)
Vanya is offline  
Old May 4, 2013, 02:32 PM   #3
Buzzcook
Senior Member
 
Join Date: November 29, 2007
Location: Everett, WA
Posts: 5,624
Quote:
He gave the driver a ticket (his first ticket) for reckless driving
Sounds more like "negligent" driving. Reckless driving is a much more serious offense than just a $200 fine.

You say the large male driver reach back into his car, what did he end up getting?

In that situation, had I been open carrying, I would have taken gun and holster off before getting out of the car to talk to police.
Buzzcook is offline  
Old May 4, 2013, 04:50 PM   #4
dakota.potts
Senior Member
 
Join Date: February 25, 2013
Location: Saint Augustine, Florida
Posts: 1,159
Because Florida is an at-fault state and he failed to stop, by Florida law it's considered reckless driving.

The large guy didn't seem to grab anything but the driver did surface with a notebook and pen to take down our license plate number.
dakota.potts is online now  
Old May 4, 2013, 05:00 PM   #5
Plumbnut
Junior member
 
Join Date: April 28, 2013
Posts: 219
What if the drver that got hit did reach into his car and grab his gun......so what? If he has the legal right to carry a gun I dont see the problem.

If you have the right to carry your gun then why should he have to leave his gun in the car?

If he did reach back in and get his gun but didn't point it at you,would you take that as a threat?
Plumbnut is offline  
Old May 4, 2013, 05:07 PM   #6
X_shooter
Senior Member
 
Join Date: April 14, 2010
Location: Michigan
Posts: 265
Open carrying in the car? Check your state laws to make sure its legit. Oc in a car in many states without a cpl is considered concealed carry and a crime. Much worse than a ticket. Brandishing laws are different too and sometimes a bit goofy. It may depend on whether your hand was on it and anyone felt threatened. All some jackwad has to do is call 911 and say someone crashed into me, he had a gun when he got out of the car, and i am afraid he is going to shoot me.

Waiting to get the license might be the way to go and keep it concealed ready for if and when you really need it.
__________________
X_shooter
X_shooter is offline  
Old May 4, 2013, 05:24 PM   #7
dakota.potts
Senior Member
 
Join Date: February 25, 2013
Location: Saint Augustine, Florida
Posts: 1,159
Plumbnut, the implication was that he was going for the gun to use as a weapon. Or at least that's the scenario I was afraid of. If he were to grab it and carry it in his hand it could be considered a "rude, threatening, or angry manner" which could be illegal but probably wouldn't justify deadly force.

X_Shooter, it's not legal where I am but there are some rights that are up for constitutional debate right now that might make it legal.
dakota.potts is online now  
Old May 4, 2013, 05:29 PM   #8
Plumbnut
Junior member
 
Join Date: April 28, 2013
Posts: 219
So your afraid of a guy with a gun but people shouldn't be concerned that you were in a car that hit them and you get out with your gun on your hip?

OK sure.

Thats why some have made the argument tha if everyone carried guns around there would eventually be a gunfight over a misunderstanding.

Think about that for a while.....this whole scenario that you have laid out.

Re-read your original posts......you were concerned that he reached back into the car......you got concerned even when you didn't even see a weapon.

What if he did reach in and get his gun and you saw him put it in his pocket? You still ok with that? Ever here of a bump robbery or a car jacking that started out with a "Bump" from behind.

It was real popular at one time.

Last edited by Plumbnut; May 4, 2013 at 05:35 PM.
Plumbnut is offline  
Old May 4, 2013, 06:07 PM   #9
dakota.potts
Senior Member
 
Join Date: February 25, 2013
Location: Saint Augustine, Florida
Posts: 1,159
Plumbnut, frankly I'm getting tired of you twisting everybody's words.

I don't care if he put it in his pocket assuming he had a license. I wanted a gun then because he stared at us angrily and returned to his car to get something. I've been raised to read body language and they were some strong signals he was throwing off. I wish I had had a gun in case he had pulled and and started shooting or making demands. If not there would be no problem. That is all I was saying and I don't think your reading into it makes the situation any more helpful for anybody.
dakota.potts is online now  
Old May 4, 2013, 06:15 PM   #10
Plumbnut
Junior member
 
Join Date: April 28, 2013
Posts: 219
I'm getting tired of people wanting things both ways.

If you have rights then everyone have rights....if you can be scared then he has the right to be scared.

You made the post I didn't. Re read you original post.....I'm not twisting anything. Your the one walking side ways.

What your really tired of is a different opinion than yours.
Plumbnut is offline  
Old May 4, 2013, 06:28 PM   #11
dakota.potts
Senior Member
 
Join Date: February 25, 2013
Location: Saint Augustine, Florida
Posts: 1,159
Plumbnut, this is what I said "I wished then that I had a gun with me but I'm not old enough. Just in case things had gone that way. These kinds of incidents (specifically road rage induced homicides) are fairly common here. "

I clearly stated that I wished I had had a gun in case he had grabbed a weapon for fear of it turning into a road rage homicide.

Please read my other 290 posts and see if any of them indicate any frustration with dissenting opinions on this board (of which I had received many, even gladly).

I'll repeat: I do not believe that your arguments are adding anything to the situation at hand or helping anybody in the given situation and I'm afraid this thread is going to be locked like many others if the path continues.
dakota.potts is online now  
Old May 4, 2013, 06:37 PM   #12
thump_rrr
Senior Member
 
Join Date: October 12, 2010
Posts: 268
Quote:
I don't care if he put it in his pocket assuming he had a license. I wanted a gun then because he stared at us angrily and returned to his car to get something. I've been raised to read body language and they were some strong signals he was throwing off. I wish I had had a gun in case he had pulled and and started shooting or making demands. If not there would be no problem. That is all I was saying and I don't think your reading into it makes the situation any more helpful for anybody.
If you rear ended me I'd be looking at you angrily.
I may even reach into my car to retrieve my phone to take pictures.
I may even begin to yell at the driver who is an idiot for not keeping a safe distance.
None of those things would give you reason to brandish a firearm.
thump_rrr is offline  
Old May 4, 2013, 06:40 PM   #13
Plumbnut
Junior member
 
Join Date: April 28, 2013
Posts: 219
Dakota,

Well thats the reason most people carry a gun. Its for self protection.

That includes road rage or anything else.

No treads are being locked and everyone is being civil. Whats the problem?
Plumbnut is offline  
Old May 4, 2013, 06:44 PM   #14
dakota.potts
Senior Member
 
Join Date: February 25, 2013
Location: Saint Augustine, Florida
Posts: 1,159
I understand thump_rrr. I definitely would not have brandished then. There would have been no disparity of force, no imminent threat, no forcible felony, no reason at all to brandish. The most I would have done had I had a gun was shift my body position to make it a little more accessible if he had pulled one and started shooting. Like I said, it's not at all unheard for somebody here to get road rage and kill somebody else. One anesthesiologist ran a young single mother off the road and killed her and then went into work for a week afterwards.

Perhaps that is what I am being unclear about. Had I had a gun with me, it would have stayed in its resting place. I simply wished I had one in case said passenger was going to attempt to perpetrate one of these said road rage homicides. Does that make it clearer for everybody? I'm definitely not looking for an excuse to go shooting people. I just remember seeing him stare us down and then returning to his car and the thought crossing my mind "What if he's reaching for a gun?".

EDIT: Plumbnut, I'm not sure I understand as you now seem to agree with me wishing to have a gun in the car in case this had happened...
dakota.potts is online now  
Old May 4, 2013, 06:52 PM   #15
Plumbnut
Junior member
 
Join Date: April 28, 2013
Posts: 219
Dakota,

You have misunderstood me as a person and my positions I think.

I have no problem with you having a gun when you get of age nd you have a clean background check.

Hey man we could even go shooting together one day. I love guns when responsible people have them.

When you carry a gun you better know how to handle yourself or you WILL get into hot water. Use good judgement.

You get into a fender bender you might want to leave the pistola in the car...especially when you see cops rolling up. Do you have to? Maybe not but it might be a smart thing to do. Innocent people go to jail all the time and it causes them alot of trouble. Especially when your young.....I was young once,I know how I was treated.

What kinda pistol are yo going to buy when you turn 21? I like Kimber .45's
Plumbnut is offline  
Old May 4, 2013, 06:57 PM   #16
Gallstones
Member
 
Join Date: February 1, 2013
Location: Goosetown in the Pintlers
Posts: 28
I would guess the fairly large man in the front car might have been, in the very least, charged with brandishing if he reached for a weapon and exited his car weapon in hand and threatened the two behind with it, even if he didn't raise it. Most assuredly so if he trained it on them from inside his car after retreiving it from the back seat.

Although it is natural to want to get out and inspect for damage, exiting can appear confrontational and can make you vulnerable if the persons in the front car intend retaliation. Most of us have cell phones. If it were me I might just stay in the car, call police and wait for them to show up and supervise the exchange of insurance information, take pictures and make a report.
Gallstones is offline  
Old May 4, 2013, 07:02 PM   #17
dakota.potts
Senior Member
 
Join Date: February 25, 2013
Location: Saint Augustine, Florida
Posts: 1,159
That's the nature of this post. Understanding how to handle myself. I knew not to brandish the hypothetical weapon. I was just curious what would happen if, for instance, the cop had reached inside to collect my license for a report (as happened) and seen the pistol on my hip. How the simple act of open carry might have changed an already complicated experience.

Anyways, you can find many of my other threads (I'll be getting the firearm sooner than that hopefully!) so we don't have to side track here. I will say my plan for now is a CZ-75
dakota.potts is online now  
Old May 4, 2013, 07:19 PM   #18
dayman
Senior Member
 
Join Date: April 18, 2011
Location: The Woods
Posts: 1,082
Up here you need to have a CC permit to have a loaded gun in the car. But that's immaterial to your main question.
Also immaterial to your main question - but still worth mentioning - is the fact that it's pretty normal to look angry after a car full of kids rear ends you. Granted I wasn't there, but I don't think a gun would have done any good in that situation. If you do that's a little worrisome.

But back to your actual question. If you want an honest answer to the question "would people treat me differently if I had a gun on my hip", the answer is an unequivocal yes.

Some OC proponents might disagree with me, but open carrying a gun in a city makes you look like a fool. It may be within your rights in some states, and you might be the greatest guy in the world, but when most people see you they're going to think you're a fool at best, and they're going to treat you as such.
If you can afford a gun and the ammunition to get proficient with it, you can afford to go through the process of getting a concealed carry permit.
__________________
si vis pacem para bellum
dayman is offline  
Old May 4, 2013, 07:22 PM   #19
Frank Ettin
Staff
 
Join Date: November 23, 2005
Location: California - San Francisco
Posts: 6,701
Quote:
Originally Posted by dakota.potts
...I was just curious what would happen if, for instance, the cop had reached inside to collect my license for a report (as happened) and seen the pistol on my hip. How the simple act of open carry might have changed an already complicated experience....
Yes it might have. But reading your posts let me suggest the next steps in your firearms education you might want to consider could most properly include some serious training to help you understand (1) how to use good judgment assessing situations; (2) how to recognize and avoid potentially dangerous situations; and (3) how to recognize a genuine threat.

Being fixated on having a gun won't help you. On the other hand, Vanya, Buzzcook and Plumbnut have offered some good advice you could profitably pay attention to.
__________________
"It is long been a principle of ours that one is no more armed because he has possession of a firearm than he is a musician because he owns a piano. There is no point in having a gun if you are not capable of using it skillfully." -- Jeff Cooper
Frank Ettin is offline  
Old May 4, 2013, 08:35 PM   #20
Ben Dover
Senior Member
 
Join Date: April 11, 2013
Location: High up in the Rocky Moun
Posts: 195
Excellent advice from Mr. Ettin.

I would say never introduce a weapon of any kind into a 'situation" unless it is absolitely necessary for your safety.

Bearing in mind that officers of the law are armed and are quite properly concerned about their own safety, leave the gun in the vehicle when you get out to talk to the officer.

It may also be a good practice to re-think your route planning to avoid undesirable areas of the city whenever possible.
__________________
The soldier's pack is not so heavy a burden as the prisoner's chains. Dwight Eisenhower
Ben Dover is offline  
Old May 4, 2013, 11:49 PM   #21
dakota.potts
Senior Member
 
Join Date: February 25, 2013
Location: Saint Augustine, Florida
Posts: 1,159
Frank, I think for some reason the wording of your post made me realize what other people were saying that I had some how missed.

Thank you for the responses though everybody.
dakota.potts is online now  
Old May 5, 2013, 12:09 AM   #22
Bill DeShivs
Senior Member
 
Join Date: April 7, 2006
Posts: 7,088
It's those darned guitar players! They'll get you in trouble every time!
Coming from a bassist.
__________________
Bill DeShivs
www.billdeshivs.com
Bill DeShivs is online now  
Old May 5, 2013, 12:28 AM   #23
dakota.potts
Senior Member
 
Join Date: February 25, 2013
Location: Saint Augustine, Florida
Posts: 1,159
I knew bassists were the coolest ones. Guess what I play

I felt bad because we were talking to him when it happened. We were talking about puppies and how nobody on the planet can not be happy when there are puppies involved. He came over the hill, hit the brakes, didn't hit them hard enough, and bumped the back of the other car.

I understand why the other guy would be angry. That's totally his right. It would even be his right to slip a pistol in his pocket if he was angry. I just started thinking, what if he had got mad and opened fire? That was the reason for this whole line of thinking. I'm definitely not chomping at the bit to go shooting anyone. I just decided to take that split second of gut-wrenching irrational fear I had and turn it into a learning experience.
dakota.potts is online now  
Old May 5, 2013, 11:28 AM   #24
Constantine
Senior Member
 
Join Date: December 5, 2010
Location: Miami, Florida
Posts: 5,181
Quote:
In that situation, had I been open carrying, I would have taken gun and holster off before getting out of the car to talk to police.
Good advice.

It has happened to me twice already. I remove my gun right when the accident happens. (I was conscious those 2 times)
__________________
Sáncte Míchael Archángele, defénde nos in proélio, cóntra nequítiam et insídias diáboli ésto præsídium. Ímperet ílli Déus, súpplices deprecámur: tuque, prínceps milítiæ cæléstis, Sátanam aliósque spíritus malígnos, qui ad perditiónem animárum pervagántur in múndo, divína virtúte, in inférnum detrúde. Ámen
Constantine is offline  
Old May 5, 2013, 12:31 PM   #25
craZivn
Senior Member
 
Join Date: January 25, 2013
Location: Wisconsin
Posts: 138
I don't like the idea of leaving the gun in the car. It's in it's holster when I'm driving, and when I get out it stays there. If a cop inquires as to weapons, then I'll tell him about the gun and hand him my license, but until then I think it's best not to introduce it into the situation unnecessarily. My state has no "duty to inform" requirement unless the officer asks.

Another thing to consider is that leaving the gun in the car may be considered irresponsible or worse, especially if there are other people in the vehicle and none of them are licensed to conceal.

This is coming from a very easygoing person in a low-pressure area who has never had a collision, so take it for what it's worth.

Ivan
craZivn is offline  
Reply

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 02:27 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
This site and contents, including all posts, Copyright © 1998-2014 S.W.A.T. Magazine
Copyright Complaints: Please direct DMCA Takedown Notices to the registered agent: thefiringline.com
Contact Us
Page generated in 0.13110 seconds with 9 queries