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Old April 25, 2013, 08:15 PM   #1
Beentown71
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AMMO Act?

Haven't heard much about this until today. They are looking to cut Federal spending and stockpiling of ammunition, specifically DHS and ICE.

Here is a link to an article about it:

http://freebeacon.com/gop-bill-seeks...mmo-purchases/

Quote:
Senate and House Republicans are set to introduce a joint bill Friday that would significantly limit the amount of ammunition that federal agencies are permitted to purchase and stockpile over the next six months.

The bill, authored by Sen. Jim Inhofe (R., Okla.) and Rep. Frank Lucas (R., Okla.), comes as numerous lawmakers across Capitol Hill have expressed concern that certain federal agencies, such as the Department of Homeland Security (DHS), are stockpiling high quantities of ammunition.
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Old April 25, 2013, 09:06 PM   #2
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This would be better than buying at premium, into a shortage, driving prices up more.
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Old April 25, 2013, 09:23 PM   #3
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I dont see this bill as a positive or a negative. Its bowing down to those who believe in conspiricy theories to me. Ok, so we cut down the length of a contract from years to so many months at a time. Sure that will reduce the total amount of rounds purchased per contract. In the end though, the same agencies will still be using the same number of rounds for training. Im sure that even if there is a reduction in firearms training, there will still be several folks wanting the same high standard, even though there is less training.
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Old April 25, 2013, 09:44 PM   #4
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Great. As She3dog pointed out in this post, they're not really stockpiling ammunition.

All this will do is reduce the amount of training ammunition available to law enforcement, and I can't possibly see how that is a good thing. The anti's will find plenty of rhetorical ammunition to use against us if we support such a thing.
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Old April 25, 2013, 11:21 PM   #5
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Also, it would end up costing taxpayers more if federal agencies were limited to short-term purchase contracts. If ammunition manufacturers have to bid on shorter contracts, they're not going to be able to offer the same low prices that they could on long-term contracts for a larger quantities.

It's depressing that any senator would act on the basis of conspiracy theories. I can't decide which is worse: the possibility that they believe this stuff themselves, or that they're pandering to the beliefs of others.
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Old April 25, 2013, 11:34 PM   #6
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If one does the math, using only the stats given in the article, 750M rounds at 60months at 72K officers = 173.666 rounds of practice ammo per month.

While I don't know how much everyone else uses for target practice.... I use 4 to 5 times that.

Once again, we are seeing what happens when huge numbers are being thrown about, without the critical thinking that should be going with it.
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Old April 25, 2013, 11:38 PM   #7
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Al, the question is do those agencies average that much? If so, they are way above DOD average, which would be more like 173 per year.
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Old April 26, 2013, 03:34 AM   #8
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As I recall even the Social Security Administration is buying ammo. I don't recall ever seeing a SS rep carrying.
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Old April 26, 2013, 04:19 AM   #9
maestro pistolero
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Quote:
All this will do is reduce the amount of training ammunition available to law enforcement, and I can't possibly see how that is a good thing.
My understanding is that the local law-enforcement agencies aren't getting any share of that ammo. I read some agencies are struggling to get enough ammo to train at all and having to source it through civilian supply channels.
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Old April 26, 2013, 06:21 AM   #10
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Looks like the DHS is way ahead of congress. The DHS bought much less ammo in 2012 than in 2010. DHS purchased 148 million rounds in 2010. In 2012 they purchased 103 million rounds.



http://www.coburn.senate.gov/public/...c-fd099b51c966
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Old April 26, 2013, 06:46 AM   #11
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I retired from a 1000 person department with 250 sworn Deputies and we shot 40 rounds of ammo (.40) a year for qualification only.
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Old April 26, 2013, 07:31 AM   #12
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Quote:
I read some agencies are struggling to get enough ammo to train at all and having to source it through civilian supply channels.
And barter with each other. i.e. Dallas may have .40 and Houston may have 9mm. They'll still have to find Minneapolis with some .223, but then they horse trade.
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Old April 26, 2013, 07:38 AM   #13
Mike Irwin
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"As I recall even the Social Security Administration is buying ammo. I don't recall ever seeing a SS rep carrying."

The Social Security Administration's Office of the Inspector General has a criminal investigations branch.

The investigators are sworn law enforcement officers and carry firearms.
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Old April 26, 2013, 09:13 AM   #14
MLeake
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Mike, that's great, but 173 rds per month is a staggeringly high average for a federal training allotment.

People are taking it on faith that this average is valid. If it is, then the guys who shoot at the elite end must burn thousands a month, to make up for the guys who shoot 100 rounds annually.

Frankly, I think they cooked the numbers, and I think they have done this to aggravate the spike in ammo costs.
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Old April 26, 2013, 09:42 AM   #15
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Don't forget that the USCG is in the DHS chain.
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Old April 26, 2013, 09:51 AM   #16
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csmsss, I haven't forgotten that; but, unless the USCG is very different from the USN, annual qualification allotments would be 100rds of .40 (practice round of 50, qual round of 50), and 80 rds of 5.56 (practice round of 40, qual round of 40).

Of course, most USN members don't seem to shoot annual quals.

It's possible the USCG has everybody shoot, and more frequently than does the Navy; heck, it's likely.

But I seriously doubt they average 173 rounds per month.

Edit: I realize in the Navy we did not shoot our quals with .40; it would have been 9mm, or .45acp, or .38 depending on job and year. The Coast Guard carries SIG DAK .40, though.
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Old April 26, 2013, 11:09 AM   #17
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Quote:
As I recall even the Social Security Administration is buying ammo.
Almost every Gov't Agency out there has a Law Enforcement arm. SSA is no different.
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Old April 26, 2013, 11:13 AM   #18
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Quote:
It's possible the USCG has everybody shoot, and more frequently than does the Navy; heck, it's likely.
It would depend on your rate. My Dad was in the USCG for 25 years. 23 of those years, he was in aviation, as a flight mechanic. Although they did have a small arms locker at the Air Station, there were only a handful of airmen who were qualified to use them. The last time my Dad fired a gun for the USCG was when he was stationed on a ship...back in 1975. :P

Granted, aviation is a small part of the USCG, and there's likely more weapons training for those stationed on ships, and those that do Border/Drug/etc (my dad was in rescue), but not everyone in the USCG shoots.
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Old April 26, 2013, 11:18 AM   #19
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Good bill IMO, agents I know feel the have more then enough ammo for training. Controlled ammo supply could be gun control.
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Old April 26, 2013, 11:20 AM   #20
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Gaerek, I have friends who are current or former FBI, Secret Service, Customs, DEA... plus every branch of service.

173 per month would be high for any of those agencies.

It would not be high for HRT or similar, but it would be very high for all the rank and file. (As in 5 to 10 times the amount normally used.)
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Old April 26, 2013, 11:26 AM   #21
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Thallub's link refers to a letter showing the breakdown in rounds per agency. http://www.coburn.senate.gov/public/...6-1745c21519c2. I recognize ICE, TSA, USSS, and USCG but not the rest of the alphabet agencies. ICE (Immigration) is the agency with the highest round count.
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Old April 26, 2013, 11:29 AM   #22
MLeake
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From your link:

Quote:
CBP = U.S. Customs and Border Protection
FLETC = Federal Law Enforcement Training Center
NPPD/FPS = National Protection and Programs Directorate/Federal Protective Service
ICE = U.S. Immigration and Customs Enforcement
TSA = Transportation Security Administration
USCG = U.S. Coast Guard
USSS = U.S. Secret Service
FLETC does a lot of initial and recurrent training, so one would expect them to use a high amount of ammo - they are a training center.

Edit: Also, from that link, Customs and Border Patrol had the highest total rounds purchased. Were you referring to ICE as rounds purchased per LE agent?
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Old April 26, 2013, 11:51 AM   #23
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From Fox, via Drudge:

http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2013...r-person-than/

This article indicates DHS uses 1000 more training rounds, per person, than does the wartime Army each year.

DHS claims they shoot every one of those training rounds, and that there is no stockpiling.

I find that hard to believe.
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Old April 26, 2013, 12:07 PM   #24
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My area agencies shoot bi-annualy @ 60 rnd per 6 mounth ; )
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Old April 26, 2013, 02:10 PM   #25
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Quote:
This article indicates DHS uses 1000 more training rounds, per person, than does the wartime Army each year.

DHS claims they shoot every one of those training rounds, and that there is no stockpiling.

I find that hard to believe.
DHS's credibility as an agency ranks right up there with BATFE.

My stepson is a Coastie. Runs small interdiction boats out of the Gulf of Mexico. They go through a fair amount of 7.62x51 and 5.56x45, and some .50 BMG, but very little pistol ammo.
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