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Old May 21, 2013, 11:15 AM   #1
anothernewb
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Poetic Ammo Justice is served!

Okay, I shouldn't really be proud of myself for this but here's the story:

Last night the good 'ol walmart app alerts me that 100 pack .223 and fed automatch are in stock in a semi-local walmart (20 miles away)

I snag up my stepdaughters to lend a "helping hand" to get more than the perquisite 3 boxes -(Not claiming moral superiority here, but I do like to take the grand kids out a couple times, mind you, and I did go out there with the intent to buy 6 boxes.) Along the way, a couple of shooting buddies also happen to call and they head along with too. So now I have a carload of crusty old smelly guys just off work, and a pair of malcontent teens (no wifi on the highway - lol) loaded for a happy joy ride, crammed into my truck, in the rain.

Anyway, to the point. We show up at the walmart, and the shelves are, of course, empty. Manage to actually flag down a competent employee who goes off in search of said ammo. While we're waiting the "horde" shows up. I've run into this bunch before in my hometown walmart and fleet farm. There's about 10 of them, and they do the shelf raiding thing as a group. I've been behind them several times only to find that they've wiped out the supply.

True side story: I ran into them the first time saw the armloads of ammo
and begged a single box off them. The one guy laughed at me and said
"This stuff's like gold, you can buy one from me online" THAT sure made
my day.

So, MY horde is inline first and they(other horde) kinda start muscling their way to the front when the guy comes back with all 30 remaining boxes of 22. We're not the only ones there either. There's 5-6 others waiting in line too. Well, the walmart guy is a good guy, He remembers that we were in line first and tells the horde that it's first come, first serve. In the confusion, my hands are quicker than his eyes - if you catch my meaning. I only had enough muscle to pick up 18 boxes. but somehow the other people in line managed to have a few boxes handed back to them as we were getting our batch - if you catch my drift... I think the stock guy handed out about oh.... 30 of them before I got my 3, lol.

Well... Horde guy kinda made a stink a bit when he came up to the counter and, well, all 3 cases were empty! and several other patrons all had at least one box in their hands....

Darn glad that guy doesn't know what I drive, wow, with that look he gave me - even my wife would have been impressed.
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Old May 21, 2013, 11:55 AM   #2
chewie146
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I love it!
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Old May 21, 2013, 04:31 PM   #3
KMAX
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"This stuff's like gold, you can buy one from me online"

If this is the guy that didn't get any ammo then you did a good thing. These people deserve no respect for trying to profit and gouge while the rest of us suffer an ammo shortage.
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Old May 21, 2013, 06:20 PM   #4
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Originally Posted by KMAX
If this is the guy that didn't get any ammo then you did a good thing. These people deserve no respect for trying to profit and gouge while the rest of us suffer an ammo shortage.
Agreed. 100 percent.

Back four +/- years ago during the FIRST ammo shortage, when the only place that had 100-round value packs of Winchester USA was Wal-Mart, there was NO Winchester USA in .45 Auto to be had at any of the local Wal-Marts. Stopped by a small local gun shop on a Saturday afternoon and he had several value packs on his shelf -- priced at $50 each (when Wal-Mart was still selling them for $32).

There should be a special place in the underworld reserved for people like that.
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Old May 21, 2013, 06:39 PM   #5
Tucker 1371
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"This stuffs like gold"... Makes me sick. You know what name and website he's selling it online under?
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Old May 21, 2013, 06:47 PM   #6
Nickel Plated
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BTW is it illegal to resell ammo as a business without an FFL? Maybe a little visit from ATF could be in his future

Though IDK. On the one hand, vengeance is sweet. On the other, snitching is not cool.
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Old May 21, 2013, 07:10 PM   #7
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It is if he's an ass.
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Old May 21, 2013, 07:17 PM   #8
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If this is the guy that didn't get any ammo then you did a good thing. These people deserve no respect for trying to profit and gouge while the rest of us suffer an ammo shortage.
I'll disagree - while I do not like what he did - he is simply taking advantage of a retailer who should have raised their prices to market demand levels to drive him away. Once that happens, the shortages will start to ease that much faster. As long as there is a demand and folks are WILLING to pay his prices, then there is NO gouging.

What is wrong with trying to make a profit? Does your employer not try to make a profit? Do they not try to make as much as they can at each opportunity in order to survive?
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Old May 21, 2013, 08:43 PM   #9
Tucker 1371
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There's a difference in capitalism and scalping. Capitolism is characterized by hard work and entrepreneurship. Scalping is taking advantage of people who have no other choice but to buy from you and/or profiting off of people's fears (like OPEC). Capitolism benefits mostly everyone (unless you suck at running a business) who participates honestly in the system where as scalping benefits only the greedy SOB doing it. These sorts of practices have done nothing but harm the shooting community as a whole by contributing to the ammo shortage.
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Old May 21, 2013, 09:12 PM   #10
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he is simply taking advantage of a retailer who should have raised their prices to market demand levels to drive him away.
Yeah, but if the retailer had done that, this would be an OMGWalMartisGouging thread.
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Old May 21, 2013, 09:37 PM   #11
Onward Allusion
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It ain't free-market and all that Econ 101 stuff. These people are scalpers and if they did this with food or gas during a disaster, they would get hauled in by the authorities at the very least. At the very worst, they'd get beaten and/or killed.

Still don't agree? Why are there laws against scalping tickets in many municipalities?

How about this? Let's say I know a big storm is coming and I run out and buy all the sump pumps and generators at the Home Depots while it's just starting to rain. So, now there's about 6 inches of rain on the ground and another 10" to go... I set up across the Home Depot with a sign to sell the sump pumps and generators - for 4X the retail price. How long do you think before I get taken in by the cops or beaten? Hey, but it's Capitalism!

Fortunately, it is "only" ammo and these guys are hiding behind the anonymity of the Internet. I wonder what would happen if someone deliberately buys from 'em just to get their personal info; do a bit of quick research on their State laws; and possibly report 'em to their State (depending on their State). It would have to be State because I don't think there are any laws on selling ammo at the Federal level.

It wouldn't be that hard if you think about it. These are the guys on Gunbroker with a handful of feedbacks on GB and they're all from the last 4 months and all their transactions consist of ammo.
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Old May 21, 2013, 09:39 PM   #12
Brian Pfleuger
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So, because its NOT government regulated its not free market?

I think you've got that backwards...
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Old May 21, 2013, 09:51 PM   #13
Onward Allusion
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So, because its NOT government regulated its not free market?

I think you've got that backwards...
Never said anything about government regulations... It's not true free market when supply is artificial.
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Old May 21, 2013, 10:06 PM   #14
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Yes, it is scalping. Yes, it is wrong.....from the perspective of the buyer. I detest what these people are doing because I do not believe they have a true interest in the shooting/hunting community. I have a simple solution for this problem: do not purchase from them. I have purchased absolutely nothing from these profiteers and I have no intention to start. If that means I have to rework my favorite cartridges with a different powder that's what I'll do. If I have to leave my rimfires silent in the safe that's what i'll do. I won't give them one red cent of my hard earned cash. If every one of us did this, the issue would quickly resolve itself.
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Old May 21, 2013, 10:18 PM   #15
Brian Pfleuger
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Onward Allusion View Post
Never said anything about government regulations... It's not true free market when supply is artificial.
Getting arrested and "scalping", which is a legal (regulatory) term aren't mentioning government regulation?

How exactly is this supply "artificial"? Please have an answer besides the debunked DHS ammo conspiracy.
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Old May 21, 2013, 10:44 PM   #16
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These people are scalpers and if they did this with food or gas during a disaster, they would get hauled in by the authorities at the very least.
This isn't food or gas and we're not in a disaster. You guys are acting like you're suffering here and gonna die if you don't get a box of 9mm soon. Ammo is a commodity. The whole scalping thing doesn't apply. If you're the only guy with it then you can very well charge whatever you please.

Are the guys charging upwards of $1000 for a Colt Python scalping? I mean it's just a .357 revolver, nothing special. It shouldn't cost 1,200 dollars. So I guess it's wrong of them to take advantage of the fact that they're one of the few people who have one for sale.

I mean, I disagree with what the guy is doing and I think he's an jackass for it. The OP did good by giving him a taste of his own medicine, but let's be serious here. The guy isn't scalping or gouging.
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Old May 21, 2013, 11:13 PM   #17
Onward Allusion
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Quote:
Brian Pfleuger

Quote:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Onward Allusion
Never said anything about government regulations... It's not true free market when supply is artificial.
Getting arrested and "scalping", which is a legal (regulatory) term aren't mentioning government regulation?

How exactly is this supply "artificial"? Please have an answer besides the debunked DHS ammo conspiracy.
Nope, never said anything about DHS either. Just like OPEC or De Beers on a much smaller scale, these groups of scalpers play the system. The big boys have a formalized supply management program, whereas the ammo-scalps use Gunbroker and other online listing sites. I liken these ammo-scalps to the oil speculators. While not entirely in control of the system, they play it to the disadvantage of most people.

BTW, stop being so damn condescending, please. You and I don't agree and let's leave it at that. No need to see who can pee higher.
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Last edited by Onward Allusion; May 21, 2013 at 11:21 PM. Reason: typo
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Old May 21, 2013, 11:21 PM   #18
Onward Allusion
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Nickel Plated
<SNIP>Are the guys charging upwards of $1000 for a Colt Python scalping? I mean it's just a .357 revolver, nothing special. It shouldn't cost 1,200 dollars. So I guess it's wrong of them to take advantage of the fact that they're one of the few people who have one for sale.

I mean, I disagree with what the guy is doing and I think he's an jackass for it. The OP did good by giving him a taste of his own medicine, but let's be serious here. The guy isn't scalping or gouging.
It is scalping. They purposely go out to buy ammo to flip because the ammo market is in a panic. Are these guys working for the money. Yes. Is what they're doing ethical? Nope. If it isn't scalping, it sure feels like it.

It is not the same as the guy trading on a Colt Python. There are not tens of thousands (hundreds of thousands?) of people clamoring for a Colt Python.
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Last edited by Onward Allusion; May 21, 2013 at 11:26 PM. Reason: grammar
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Old May 21, 2013, 11:43 PM   #19
kilimanjaro
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Buying a large portion of a scarce commodity in order to raise prices is unethical. One LGS here has identified some of these folks, they get one box per day, no more.
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Old May 22, 2013, 12:18 AM   #20
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best way to beat the "ammo scalpers" is not to pay their prices.
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Old May 22, 2013, 01:33 AM   #21
Aguila Blanca
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Onward Allusion
Never said anything about government regulations... It's not true free market when supply is artificial.
There is nothing "artificial" about the current ammo supply. It is an example of the free market at work. The problem is that demand spiked VERY rapidly (almost instantaneously), while supply (production) needs time to respond to sudden increases in demand. Production will increase ... several of the U.S. ammo makers have announced that they are expanding their production capacity, and Armscor has announced that they are building a new ammo production facility in Nevada to supplement their ammo production in the Philippines. But building new factories and adding new machines and training new workers doesn't happen overnight.

Large ammo sellers like Wal-Mart, Cabelas, Sportsmans Guide, Natchez, etc., could legally exploit the current situation by raising their prices. Ammo isn't price-regulated, so that wouldn't be illegal. But they know that -- eventually -- supply will increase and demand will stabilize, at which point they can foresee a backlash if they were to try to gouge now. So, whether their motives are entirely honorable or if they are only holding their prices to avoid a backlash later, I credit the big sellers for NOT bumping their prices, or even auctioning off ammo to the highest bidder.

The people who are buying it to flip are opportunists -- jackals. What they are doing isn't illegal, but it is certainly immoral. Is it free market at work? Yes, it is -- free BLACK market. But the current ammo market supply situation is not artificial. For it to be artificial, either the manufacturers would have to be conspiring to limit their production to less than their actual capacity, or the government would have to be somehow manipulating the supply. I don't see either happening.
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Old May 22, 2013, 05:24 AM   #22
thedudeabides
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Scream about "free markets" and whatnot, scalping isn't capitalism. These people don't produce anything, they don't manufacture or ship, they aren't creative or innovative, they just take advantage of a bad situation.

And it's because of them that you can't buy more than 100 rounds of ammo at any local gun stores--even Wal Mart.
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Old May 22, 2013, 06:46 AM   #23
BigD_in_FL
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It ain't free-market and all that Econ 101 stuff. These people are scalpers and if they did this with food or gas during a disaster, they would get hauled in by the authorities at the very least. At the very worst, they'd get beaten and/or killed.
There is NO scalping, NO gouging, nothing of the sort. Too many here, it seems, are either underfunded to pay the current market price for the commodity in question, or did not prepare enough in advance (like after the FIRST election)
Try watching this video about why it is NOT gouging: - even during a disaster - (takes only a few minutes):
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h9QEkw6_O6w
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Old May 22, 2013, 06:51 AM   #24
BigD_in_FL
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These people don't produce anything, they don't manufacture or ship, they aren't creative or innovative, they just take advantage of a bad situation.
WOW......

I guess we need to include EVERY retailer in that group from grocery stores to big box chains

Some folks just don't get it..............
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Old May 22, 2013, 07:17 AM   #25
Onward Allusion
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Too many here, it seems, are either underfunded to pay the current market price for the commodity in question, or did not prepare enough in advance (like after the FIRST election)
During the '09 panic, I made daily trips to the Wally World by my work and visited another 2 Wally World every other day. At the beginning, there were no limits. I COULD HAVE have purchased the entire display case of all the popular calibers if I wanted to. I NEVER did that. I always only picked up a couple/few boxes of 9mm & 40S&W and maybe a box of 38 spl so that other shooters could get ammo. I guess I'm a straight shooter that way.

You know what? I haven't purchased ANYTHING except for 12 gauge during this panic. I have all the ammo I need for the next 5 years. I still run to the sites to see if I can grab a box when I receive an email notification, but that's more for fun than anything else. Yes, I need to get out more.

These AH's who are doing what I did during the last panic BUT ARE CLEANING OUT the shops with multiple visits in the same day to bypass the limit requirements using different clerks are creating an artificial scarcity of supply. If this were a real disaster/emergency and ammo was one of the things that would mean life or death, these guys would not do well.

Aside from the ethical violations, there are laws against scalping in most places. If people want to call laws regulations and are impediments against Capitalism & the Free-Market, so be it. However, for anyone who has taken any type of university level courses beyond 100 level's, they will know that SOME regulations ARE required to create a sustainable system. So, this ain't real free-market what these jokers are doing.

If everyone who is completely fed up with this scalping crap online, go buy some ammo from these guys. Get their info. Find out what their State Laws are. Give their State AG office a call. This "scarce" supply will disappear fairly quickly. I said IF. So, don't y'all go out and do that...
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