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Old April 24, 2013, 06:41 PM   #1
sixgunluv
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Police say defective bullets?

http://www.wpxi.com/news/news/local/...cking-s/nXTXT/
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Old April 24, 2013, 06:47 PM   #2
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Gonna try to save this to prevent it being closed as a drive-by. The link is about 40 cal. pistols not stopping bad guys after 2 high profile incidents in Pittsburg even after being hit multiple times. The ammo was tested and shown to work normally.

I think this is a good example of how at times some people just don't want to die. There are many examples of people who have been shot multiple times and just keep on going.

Here is a good example

http://www.psywarrior.com/benavidez.html
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Old April 24, 2013, 08:09 PM   #3
sixgunluv
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Article

Actually what i got out of this article was that the police expect the bad guys to drop when shot in their pinky toe. Did you notice the part where it describes where the suspect was shot? "five times — in the chest, hip, leg, wrist and possibly in the finger." I bet it was the chest shot that ended it.


It's all about shot placement. I have seen other recent articles like this where they have said the suspect was shot 8 times..... once in the knee, finger, wrist, outer thigh, ear, buttocks, foot, and once in the chest..........probably the one that put him down.
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Old April 24, 2013, 08:31 PM   #4
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If you don't do sufficient damage to significant structures then you should not expect stops.
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Old April 24, 2013, 08:45 PM   #5
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It's easy to read between the lines here and point out things I've been shouting about for years:
  • Handguns are marginal manstoppers at best
  • As such, one must train regularly if they're to be a primary weapon
  • That is even more important for those who go in harm's way as a vocation
  • Those who do need more that "yearly testing" on the range
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Old April 24, 2013, 08:55 PM   #6
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If you are in a situation where deadly force is required, continue applying deadly force until the threat is no longer there. Nothing else to say. I dont care if its a .40S&W or a .999ManStopper. Who cares. If you have to defend yourself. You defend yourself until there is no longer a threat.
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Old April 24, 2013, 09:11 PM   #7
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What seems to be needed is for police training to include a reality check -- officers need to understand that, unlike in the movies, in real life one shot to the left pinkie will NOT pick up a drug-crazed body builder and hurl him through a concrete block wall.
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Old April 24, 2013, 09:25 PM   #8
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If the police thinks .40 Caliber which is one of the most powerful pistol cartridges in a civilians arsenal is inadequate, why are they trying to limit the amount of rounds we can carry?

Bullet damage is associated by tearing, force, and evisceration. All which require time for bleed out or for the affected organ to be vital and also to stop operating. These LEO's apparently also need anatomy classes, they aren't using Star Wars lasers. :P
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Old April 24, 2013, 09:37 PM   #9
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Quote:
If the police thinks .40 Caliber which is one of the most powerful pistol cartridges in a civilians arsenal is inadequate, why are they trying to limit the amount of rounds we can carry?
First and as noted, the police are apparently confused. Second, it isn't the police who are trying to limit the rounds we can carry.
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Old April 24, 2013, 09:50 PM   #10
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First and as noted, the police are apparently confused. Second, it isn't the police who are trying to limit the rounds we can carry.
I know the police aren't. However, the argument is usually that they are pushing limiting the amount of rounds we have due to police being "outgunned" and also typically they go by information released by "police". Living in Florida I have the good feeling that every one of the Sheriffs within my fair state had stated they would not enforce laws that oppress our constitutional rights.

Sorry about saying they without stating what I meant by they. I know cops aren't gun grabbing. :P
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Old April 24, 2013, 09:58 PM   #11
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Remember this story from last year. Man entered a movie theater looking for his wife to kill her and met a woman deputy sheriff who was working security at the theater. Took her 4 shots at close range before she put his guy down.

http://thespeechatimeforchoosing.wor...e-he-can-kill/

9MM or 45 ACP or 22 LR, it doesn't matter much if you don't hit the magic spot and turn off the lights. It;s why some of us old timer coaches get crabby if the people carrying guns do not put in the trigger time. It's no guarantee but it sure ups the odds.
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Old April 24, 2013, 10:44 PM   #12
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Points; FBI protocol tests...

Here are a few random points, re; Pittsburgh PD & the .40S&W Federal loads...
1) the FBI protocol tests are open source & available to the general public. The protocol tests are shown for many, many handgun brands(DPX, Critical Duty, HST-ATK/Federal, Golden Saber, Ranger-T/T Series, Speer Gold Dot, etc).
2) Id consider the "best" LE or duty round(.40) now to be the Hornady Critical Duty 175gr .40S&W. it does very well in the FBI protocol tests. There is 0 wrong with the Golden Saber 165gr, the Ranger T/T Series 155gr, the DPX, or the Speer Gold Dot 165gr JHP.
3) IUP is a well known school or program for police science/criminal justice. Both my parents went there in the 1960s. Go Crimson Hawks!
4) The Pittsburgh PD has a long history of bad decisions & admin problems. It's not cop-bashing. They were under a DoJ Consent Decree, . The former chief; Nate Harper is under a lot of heat by the FBI & is reported to plea guilty on several criminal charges.
5) 100s of sworn LE officers across the USA have packed .40 sidearms for over 20 years. Pittsburgh PD has issued Glock .40S&W models since the late 1990s.
6) R&Ds or procurement tests should be done to ensure the selection of the best ammunition. Bar talk or $$$ shouldn't effect the final contract but it does way to often.

CF
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Old April 24, 2013, 10:47 PM   #13
Aguila Blanca
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:cough: FBI. April 11, 1986. Miami. :cough:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Wikipedia
The shootout involved ten people: two suspects and eight FBI agents. Of the ten, only one, Special Agent Manauzzi, did not fire any shots (firearm thrown from car in initial collision), while only one, Special Agent Risner, was able to emerge from the battle without a wound. The incident lasted under five minutes yet approximately 145 shots were exchanged.[7][23]

Toxicology tests showed that the abilities of Platt and Matix to fight through multiple traumatic gunshot wounds and continue to battle and attempt to escape were not achieved through any chemical means. Both of their bodies were drug-free at the time of their deaths.
And from this site: http://www.examiner.com/article/a-lo...27-years-later

Quote:
Dove, one of the other SWAT trained agents, fired approximately 20 rounds from his S&W Model 459 during the fight. He hit Platt in the chest as Platt was climbing out of his car. Dove’s 9mm bullet caused Platt to suffer what was later described as a “non survivable” wound. Unfortunately, even with a collapsed lung and with blood pooling in his chest, Platt continued to fight.

During the fight Platt continued to move and use cover while shooting in different directions at different agents as he saw them. He wounded Manauzzi and shot McNeill in the hand as he attempted to reload his revolver. He shot Mireles in the left forearm as Mireles came up to engage him with a 12 gauge shotgun. He shot McNeil again, in the neck this time, which left the agent paralyzed for several hours.

Platt killed Grogan and Dove after moving around the car they were using as cover while they were trying to fix Dove’s pistol, which had been hit by one of Platt’s .223 rounds and rendered inoperable. Neither Grogan nor Dove apparently heard the warnings shouted by other agents in the fight at that time.

The whole time Platt was also taking hits from various agents. In addition to the chest shot, Dove also hit Platt in the thigh and foot. He was also likely hit by Special Agents Ronald Risner (also SWAT trained and with a S&W 459) and Gilbert Orrantia,
Nope. No such thing as a one-shot stop ... unless it's a very lucky shot.

And the bad guys in Miami weren't hopped up on dope.
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Old April 24, 2013, 11:15 PM   #14
ClydeFrog
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And once, "again"...

The Miami Florida Platt-Matix shooting.

It's a NBC TV movie too; The FBI Murders 1988, www.imdb.com .

Other good ref films include FX's 44 Minutes about the 1997 North Hollywood BoA event.
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Old April 25, 2013, 12:23 AM   #15
JD0x0
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The bullets weren't defective. They just weren't put in the right place.
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Old April 25, 2013, 12:38 AM   #16
ClydeFrog
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JY youtube clip...

There's a video by James "Tactical Response" Yeager where he talks directly about this point.
Yeager correctly explains that there is a significant difference between power & lethality.
A violent felon can be hit center mass by a powerful round & still fight(ie: kill good guys) before they expire(or stop). Author & legal use of force expert; Massad Ayoob made the same point to in a few gun press articles.
As discussed at length many many times on TFL & other gun forums, a solid hit to the "tactical T zone"(the area around the nose/eyes) will drop most subjects but you(the armed citizen or armed professional) should carry enough gun & be able to quickly aim/fire at a subject.

To me, there's no point in a violent felon to soak up 10-20 hits from a .25acp or a .380acp from a license holder.

CF
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Old April 25, 2013, 06:13 AM   #17
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To me, there's no point in a violent felon to soak up 10-20 hits from a .25acp or a .380acp from a license holder.
So what's the point of a violent felon like Michael Platt soaking up 10-20 (12 actually) hits from .38, 9mm, and .357? You think it would have made any difference if the shooters were license holders rather than FBI Special Agents????
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Old April 25, 2013, 08:32 AM   #18
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But I thought the 40 cal was supposed to be a 1 shot stop 100% of the time? I guess we better buy all the LEO's in this country new firearms in 10MM or something bigger!

As has been said, handguns are not reliable man stoppers. You will always have situations where because someone is in an altered state(due to drugs) they take an extreme amount of punishment before going down. I am not sure even had the officers been using M-4 style carbines it would have made much of a difference.

The sad truth of the matter is below a 30 caliber rifle round of some sort you are not likely to get a "one shot stop" unless you get a head shot or maybe a shot directly to the heart. Follow up shots may be needed and shots to non vital areas may be ineffective.
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Old April 25, 2013, 09:46 AM   #19
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Too many people get their idea of reality from TV. People don't fly 4ft in the air and die when they are shot by the "good guy". Their is only a couple of small spots on human anatomy that will instantly kill a person which would be a pretty lucky shot on the fly.

I do also wonder about some police gun tactics now days, sending out rds, dropping clips and sending out more rounds. I know they get free ammo but after reading about many law enforcement "exchanges" it really makes me wonder.
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Old April 25, 2013, 09:52 AM   #20
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So the real point of this is how valuable the follow up shots are. Consistency with center mass and don't quit shooting until the threat is down are some things I think about when I go to the range.

Or are we talking about good rounds to carry and how many to bring?

Or is this about size of the gun?
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Old April 25, 2013, 10:13 AM   #21
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Quote:
So what's the point of a violent felon like Michael Platt soaking up 10-20 (12 actually) hits from .38, 9mm, and .357? You think it would have made any difference if the shooters were license holders rather than FBI Special Agents????
You forgot the shotgun blast that injured both feet as well. Also as with most other such folks who "absorb" a lot of shots, most of the impacts are minor, doing little serious damage.

Quote:
I do also wonder about some police gun tactics now days, sending out rds, dropping clips and sending out more rounds. I know they get free ammo but after reading about many law enforcement "exchanges" it really makes me wonder.
Other than no typical patrol officer handguns, rifles, or shotguns not using "clips," I think it is fair to say that the number of rounds fired by cops during shootouts is not determined by the cost of the ammo, whether they paid for it themselves or whether it is covered by the department.
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Old April 25, 2013, 10:16 AM   #22
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Quote:
Originally Posted by deepcreek
I do also wonder about some police gun tactics now days, sending out rds, dropping clips and sending out more rounds. I know they get free ammo but after reading about many law enforcement "exchanges" it really makes me wonder.
You ever tried shooting at someone who's trying to kill you? It ain't like you're taking a solid weaver-stance and poking holes in a piece of paper that's 7 feet away and not moving.
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Old April 25, 2013, 11:02 AM   #23
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When police officers carried revolvers, dump pouches for ammo, and New York reloads, the awareness of shot placement's importance received greater attention and more training. But at that time a great many LEO's had military experience and/or had grown up with firearms.

No, I'm not saying they should go back to revolvers (though at my age it's tempting to say so). But what I keep reading in posts from police officers is that training has been reduced, opportunities for practice have diminished, and the number of cops with previous weapons experience is way down. Sounds to me like a recipe for unrealistic expectations and spray-and-pray shootings of the kind we've heard about where officers fire forty rounds and hit their target seven times.

I'm not, repeat, NOT blaming the LEO's. I admire tremendously the job they do in damn near impossible situations. But it sounds as if too often they're handicapped by a system that doesn't support them adequately.
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Last edited by shouldazagged; April 25, 2013 at 10:11 PM.
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Old April 25, 2013, 11:09 AM   #24
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Quote:
“You can fire a handgun at a rate of four to five rounds per second. If someone — after being shot right through the heart — has 15 seconds, they can easily fire 50 to 60 shots in that time.”
This has me questioning things a little.

I think it would be very hard to fire a handgun at this rate of fire and do anything other then keep it pointed in the basic direction of the target.

But even with a pair of 30 round mags 50 to 60 rounds in 15 seconds sounds stupidly unrealistic to me because situations do not remain unchanging like this for 15 seconds.

If all the guy is going to do is hang the gun around the corner and jerk the mags dry as fast as possible then sure, but that isn't really anything more dangerous then a risk of hearing loss.

I just don't think unrealistic statements provide much much for an argument.

As for the guys being drug free, sure, completely drug free of all but one of the most powerful drugs known to man, adrenaline.
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Old April 25, 2013, 05:35 PM   #25
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Quote:
You ever tried shooting at someone who's trying to kill you? It ain't like you're taking a solid weaver-stance and poking holes in a piece of paper that's 7 feet away and not moving.
Have you? Have the majority of firearms trainers? Not many of us have and not many are alive that have. Also many of the stories I have heard were greatly exaggerated about the threats they faced.

I just keep hearing about cars, homes, buildings, that have 50+ bullet holes in them and less then 5 in the target. Were talking about 1 in 10 or less shots making it to the target.

Like you said t easy to hit paper especially at 15yds, even while rapid fire, dropping mags and reloading.

Would it be better to take a breath? idono? but it would be interesting to see some stats on shots vs hits from a couple of decades ago before semi autos and rapid fire were so popular.
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