The Firing Line Forums

Go Back   The Firing Line Forums > Hogan's Alley > Handguns: General Handgun Forum

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old May 10, 2013, 01:24 PM   #1
simonrichter
Senior Member
 
Join Date: December 3, 2011
Location: Austria
Posts: 363
.22lr w/ bullet other than soft lead

Had a few backyard trials with my new PT22. Whenever I tried to test the penetration of the 22lr rounds in say a phone book or thelike, the depth of entry was quite hard to tell because the bullets tend to shatter and don't drill a clear whole, making it hard to tell how many layers were actually penetrated. I didn't expect a lot out of such a short barrel, still I was surprised it didn't even penetrated mild sheet metal hardly thicker than tin can.

Apart from that, it would be easier to collect bullets rather than fragments. Thus, I wondered whether there is .22lr ammo with other than just lead bullets? I'm well aware that there are no actual FMJ rounds, but anything other than soft lead would be an improvement...
__________________
"Get off of my lawn!" Walt Kowalski
. Savage Axis XP (.223 Rem)
. G17 3rd gen. (9mm)
. Taurus PT22 PLY (.22lr)
simonrichter is offline  
Old May 10, 2013, 01:29 PM   #2
newfrontier45
Junior member
 
Join Date: February 23, 2012
Posts: 921
The heeled design precludes anything other than relatively soft, swaged lead. No jacketed bullets exist. That said, the .22LR tends to penetrate very well considering how it looks on paper. On soft targets like phone books, it should do very well. Harder targets like sheet metal, not so much.
newfrontier45 is offline  
Old May 10, 2013, 01:33 PM   #3
simonrichter
Senior Member
 
Join Date: December 3, 2011
Location: Austria
Posts: 363
I see the point, but wouldn't it be (theoretically, as it seems...) possible to use lead on the base and the outside and a harder material for the core?
__________________
"Get off of my lawn!" Walt Kowalski
. Savage Axis XP (.223 Rem)
. G17 3rd gen. (9mm)
. Taurus PT22 PLY (.22lr)
simonrichter is offline  
Old May 10, 2013, 01:43 PM   #4
Buzzcook
Senior Member
 
Join Date: November 29, 2007
Location: Everett, WA
Posts: 5,630
Copper plated .22 should hold together a bit better.

Buy some different brands and try them out.
Buzzcook is offline  
Old May 10, 2013, 02:02 PM   #5
newfrontier45
Junior member
 
Join Date: February 23, 2012
Posts: 921
Quote:
Copper plated .22 should hold together a bit better.
It's copper washed, not plated. It doesn't do anything for the integrity of the bullet.

Last edited by newfrontier45; May 10, 2013 at 02:19 PM. Reason: Typo
newfrontier45 is offline  
Old May 10, 2013, 02:09 PM   #6
SDC
Senior Member
 
Join Date: January 23, 2001
Location: People's Republic of Kanada
Posts: 1,636
Actually, there HAVE been 22 LR FMJ rounds; the US Air Force issued these for use with their rimfire "bail-out" guns before the 22 Hornet was adopted for the same purpose.
__________________
Gun control in Canada: making the streets safer for rapists, muggers, and other violent criminals since 1936.
SDC is offline  
Old May 10, 2013, 02:17 PM   #7
laytonj1
Senior Member
 
Join Date: June 1, 2005
Location: Alabama
Posts: 3,476
Quote:
It's copped washed, not plated
There are some. CCI list several of their 22LR high velocity rounds as CPRN, which would mean copper plated round nose.
From their website:
Quote:
•Mini-Mag 36-grain, copper-plated hollow point; 1,260 fps
Jim
laytonj1 is offline  
Old May 10, 2013, 02:21 PM   #8
carguychris
Senior Member
 
Join Date: October 20, 2007
Location: Richardson, TX
Posts: 5,501
I have been told that the US military procured a small amount of .22LR FMJ ammo during the late 1940s and early 1950s for the .22LR/.410 over/under M6 Aircrew Survival Weapon, due to a legal concern that lead bullets could violate the Hague Convention if used against enemy soldiers. Military leaders supposedly later decided that the issue was trivial, and reverted to issuing standard off-the-shelf lead bullets. The FMJ ammo is supposedly very rare today and is coveted by cartridge collectors.

Mandatory Disclaimer: I have no idea whether this is actually true. The person who told me this may have been deliberately pulling my leg.

Other than this possibly bogus story, I have never heard of, nor seen, a jacketed .22LR bullet.
__________________
"Smokey, this is not 'Nam. This is bowling. There are rules... MARK IT ZERO!!" - Walter Sobchak
carguychris is online now  
Old May 10, 2013, 02:23 PM   #9
simonrichter
Senior Member
 
Join Date: December 3, 2011
Location: Austria
Posts: 363
Given the variety of .22lr loads today and the fact that it obviously IS possible to manufacture FMJ heeled bullets, I wonder why there is not ONE manufacturer today offering this option...

And yes, plated or washed, that doesn't make any difference...
__________________
"Get off of my lawn!" Walt Kowalski
. Savage Axis XP (.223 Rem)
. G17 3rd gen. (9mm)
. Taurus PT22 PLY (.22lr)
simonrichter is offline  
Old May 10, 2013, 02:24 PM   #10
laytonj1
Senior Member
 
Join Date: June 1, 2005
Location: Alabama
Posts: 3,476
Quote:
You can scratch it off with a fingernail.
You might be right. They don't say how thick the plating is. Next time I come across some I'll give it a try.

Jim
laytonj1 is offline  
Old May 10, 2013, 02:28 PM   #11
PointOneSeven
Senior Member
 
Join Date: August 8, 2006
Posts: 577
Slowing the bullet down will help, like the standard velocity or subsonic rounds for recovering bullets. Won't help though if your checking depth of carry ammo or hunting rounds. For 'scientific' purposes, the slow ammo is a hoot though .

Oh, and the subsonics may not cycle the p22 though, so one at a time .
PointOneSeven is offline  
Old May 10, 2013, 03:36 PM   #12
simonrichter
Senior Member
 
Join Date: December 3, 2011
Location: Austria
Posts: 363
Quote:
Oh, and the subsonics may not cycle the p22 though, so one at a time
At least that is not much of a problem since I have a wonderful PT22 with a tip-up barrel

Still, I'm waiting for someone to come forth with steel core .22s.

@carguychris: I have the same information, though I learned the FMJ were made for the High Standard suppressed pistol (but for the same reason, after all, Hague convention)
__________________
"Get off of my lawn!" Walt Kowalski
. Savage Axis XP (.223 Rem)
. G17 3rd gen. (9mm)
. Taurus PT22 PLY (.22lr)
simonrichter is offline  
Old May 10, 2013, 07:47 PM   #13
L_Killkenny
Senior Member
 
Join Date: February 2, 2007
Location: Iowa
Posts: 2,676
Like with centerfire bullets, not all .22lr bullets are created equal. But I have never ever had any .22lr solid come apart. Don't care whether it's bare, washed, plated, whatever. Bullets with large HP's and fragmenting bullets yes, not solids and to be honest, not most HP's.

If you getting solids to fragment you must have the hardest phone books known to man.
L_Killkenny is offline  
Old May 10, 2013, 08:00 PM   #14
jhenry
Senior Member
 
Join Date: May 27, 2006
Location: Ozarks
Posts: 1,813
The USAF.22/.410 was always a .22 Hornet over .410. The civilian versions, the M6, were available in .22lr though. The military .22Hornat ammo did in fact have a fmj projectile. This stuff used to come on the market years and years ago dirt cheap, but no more. It is now rare.
__________________
"A Liberal is someone who doesn't care what you do, as long as it's mandatory". - Charles Krauthammer
jhenry is offline  
Old May 10, 2013, 08:26 PM   #15
lamarw
Senior Member
 
Join Date: April 12, 2010
Location: Lake Martin, AL
Posts: 1,787
I am rather surprised with what I am reading. I don't shoot .22 rimfire often these days, but I sure did when I was a younster. (in a rifle)

I also do not remember bullets falling apart. They deformed but stayed together. I dug a few out of tree trunks. There was also an old junker 54 Ford on my Dad's farm, and .22 LR penetrated the fenders and doors.

Is pistol velocity that much less or today's .22 ammo less potent?
lamarw is online now  
Old May 10, 2013, 08:38 PM   #16
James K
Staff
 
Join Date: March 17, 1999
Posts: 19,649
According to Hackley, Woodin and Scranton (History of Modern U.S. Military Small Arms Ammunition), in early 1944 the U.S. Army intended to issue standard hollow point .22 LR for use by the Air Force (the USAAF - the USAF did not yet exist) in a survival rifle. Concerns about the Hague convention caused that idea to be rejected, and work began on a FMJ .22 LR, which became the T42. Remington was given a production contract and started work in Sept 1944, ultimately producing some 3 million rounds, including 1.5 million rounds for the OSS for use in silenced pistols.

The continued demand led the Army to standardize the round as the M24. The production round used a 40.5 grain bullet at 1275 fps at 25.5 feet. The jacket is smooth, with no grooves or steps. Total production of the M24 is not indicated. T42 cartridges were packed in white boxes; M24 rounds were packed in commercial boxes which were sealed in foil lined paper with the military designation.

I have seen several of the FMJ .22 rounds, but they are scarce today in spite of what would seem a fairly high production.

Jim
__________________
Jim K
James K is offline  
Old May 11, 2013, 10:32 AM   #17
Oldwoodsloafer
Member
 
Join Date: March 11, 2007
Location: Upstate New York
Posts: 49
Military FMJ 22 LR

The Army Air Force M24 rounds were used for the Savage/Stevens 22-410 (later designated by Savage as the model 24). The military bought a lot of, I believe, 10,000 for use in aircraft survival kits. They were supplied with plastic Tenite stocks.
__________________
"There is nothing so frightening as ignorance in action."
Oldwoodsloafer is offline  
Old May 11, 2013, 11:13 AM   #18
simonrichter
Senior Member
 
Join Date: December 3, 2011
Location: Austria
Posts: 363
Quote:
Is pistol velocity that much less or today's .22 ammo less potent?
I'm pretty sure it's the former. As already mentioned, I used a very short-barreled semiauto. It occurs to me that actually out of a Rifle, the bullets didn't shatter on paper (!) as they did out of the mouse gun.
__________________
"Get off of my lawn!" Walt Kowalski
. Savage Axis XP (.223 Rem)
. G17 3rd gen. (9mm)
. Taurus PT22 PLY (.22lr)
simonrichter is offline  
Old May 11, 2013, 01:50 PM   #19
michael t
Senior Member
 
Join Date: May 17, 2004
Location: Out back Ky
Posts: 3,474
I shoot Blazer and CCI 22 LR lead standard velocity out of my Beretta 21 A and have none of these problems

Years ago I used my 10/22 on a old 55 chev on my farm and at 100 yds would go thru passenger door.

What brand are these bullets.
__________________
Colt Defender ,Colt Mustang ,Dan Wesson CBOB, PPK/S, American Classic,
Bersa Thunder 380
http://bersachat.comHome of Bersa
American Classic new home www.americanclassic1911forum.com
michael t is offline  
Old May 11, 2013, 02:42 PM   #20
RJay
Senior Member
 
Join Date: November 2, 2005
Location: Arizona
Posts: 1,665
I also used to shoot at an old abandoned car near our farm. The .22 easily penetrated the sheet metal., even from a distance.
__________________
Ron James
RJay is offline  
Old May 11, 2013, 04:57 PM   #21
simonrichter
Senior Member
 
Join Date: December 3, 2011
Location: Austria
Posts: 363
I used Federal HV, nothing special. Out of a Taurus PT22... Although, all considered, I bought those rounds a few years ago. Maybe that makes the lead a little more brittle...
__________________
"Get off of my lawn!" Walt Kowalski
. Savage Axis XP (.223 Rem)
. G17 3rd gen. (9mm)
. Taurus PT22 PLY (.22lr)
simonrichter is offline  
Old May 11, 2013, 07:07 PM   #22
Lavan
Senior Member
 
Join Date: December 10, 1999
Location: California
Posts: 2,107
Clip off a itty bitty piece of drill bit and stuff it into a 22LR hollow point.

No I haven't tried it, but it seems reasonable.

Think I'd only do it single shot though.
Lavan is offline  
Reply

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 02:22 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
This site and contents, including all posts, Copyright © 1998-2014 S.W.A.T. Magazine
Copyright Complaints: Please direct DMCA Takedown Notices to the registered agent: thefiringline.com
Contact Us
Page generated in 0.11533 seconds with 9 queries