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Old April 1, 2013, 06:47 AM   #1
Southern Shooter
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Military Issue FMJ .30-06 in Modern Hunting Rifle?

Would firing military issue FMJ .30-06 from recent production bolt-action hunting rifles be a bad idea? Would such ammo damage these rifles?

Thanks
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Old April 1, 2013, 06:56 AM   #2
m.p.driver
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Wouldn't damage it,just remember a lot of 30-06 was corrosive,so hot soapy water afterwards.
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Old April 1, 2013, 07:10 AM   #3
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When in HS during the mid 70's I had saved up enough money to buy my 1st rifle. I was undecided between 270, 308, or 30-06. One of my teachers, coaches, and also my scout master was a big hunter and I went to his house seeking advice one afternoon after school. He never said a word, just took me out to a shed behind his house, opened a footlocker, and pulled out a 10' section of linked 30-06 machine gun ammo and gave it to me. The footlocker was FULL. His only advice was "come back for more when you shoot this up".

I bought the 30-06 rifle the next day and have probably shot a few thousand military rounds through that rifle with no problems. Do keep it clean, and remember FMJ non-expanding ammo is not legal to hunt with in most places. It is fine for informal practice though.
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Old April 1, 2013, 08:41 AM   #4
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Just make sure FMJ is legal where your hunting, otherwise you'll be fine. Also go to a range first and make sure of your accuracy too.
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Old April 1, 2013, 08:42 AM   #5
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Yes and no.

Nice fresh and new 30-06 military ammunition would not harm a thing. The pressures on US GI 30-06 were low, nothing higher than 50 K psia and most of the data I have seen the stuff was in the low 40's.


But, when you are talking Korean War or WW2 stuff, and Vietnam era, that old ammunition is beyond a reasonable shelf life. A rule of thumb for the shelf life of ammunition is 20 years for double based and 45 years for single based. Heat, and I am talking about continuous storage at temperatures above 90 F, 125 F will dramatically reduce the lifetime of gunpowder. Heat will reduce the lifetime of gunpowder from decades to years, higher temperatures reduce the lifetime to months. Gunpowder is tested in ovens at 150 F, if it fumes within 30 days, the military scraps the stuff. It is unsafe to store and it is unsafe to shoot.

Old gunpowder has burn rate issues, it does not burn evenly. That has, and will, cause pressure spikes. Old ammunition will blow up guns. Not each shot, but shoot enough of it, and bad things will happen. A bud of mine who is a machine gunner, he has blown the top covers twice with 1950’s vintage Yugo surplus.
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Old April 1, 2013, 10:20 AM   #6
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Old gunpowder has burn rate issues, it does not burn evenly. That has, and will, cause pressure spikes. Old ammunition will blow up guns. Not each shot, but shoot enough of it, and bad things will happen
I am not buying that one little bit. Where did you come up with this?

I've shot old ammo (tons of it) for years. Military and civilian stuff with out a problem.

The DCM and now the CMP sells ammo that is in excess of 40 years old. They certainly wouldn't be selling it if it presented the dangers you've mentioned.

Don't take Slamfire's word on this. Don't take my word for it. Go to the CMPwebsite to the section "Ask Orest" and post the question to him, (Michael Orest is the Chief Operation Officer of the CMP) or go to the Ammo forums of the CMP site and present that question.

The CMP sells some pretty nasty - old stuff, but it shoots good. Some may be corrosive but clean your rifle properly after shooting it and you'll have no problems.

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Old April 1, 2013, 01:08 PM   #7
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Had me wondering...

Yes...had me wondering about that. I have been shooting 7.62x54R with stamp dates of 1950, for years. Every one of them seem to perform like the first one I ever fired. Kicks like a horse!!! And, from my Mosin-Nagants they all hit in the same spot at 100 yards...high and to the right.
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Old April 1, 2013, 01:39 PM   #8
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I am not buying that one little bit. Where did you come up with this?

I've shot old ammo (tons of it) for years. Military and civilian stuff with out a problem.

The DCM and now the CMP sells ammo that is in excess of 40 years old. They certainly wouldn't be selling it if it presented the dangers you've mentioned.

Don't take Slamfire's word on this. Don't take my word for it. Go to the CMPwebsite to the section "Ask Orest" and post the question to him, (Michael Orest is the Chief Operation Officer of the CMP) or go to the Ammo forums of the CMP site and present that question.

The CMP sells some pretty nasty - old stuff, but it shoots good. Some may be corrosive but clean your rifle properly after shooting it and you'll have no problems.

Don't take Slamfire's word on this. Don't take my word for it. Go to the CMPwebsite to the section "Ask Orest" and post the question to him, (Michael Orest is the Chief Operation Officer of the CMP) or go to the Ammo forums of the CMP site and present that question.

The CMP sells some pretty nasty - old stuff, but it shoots good. Some may be corrosive but clean your rifle properly after shooting it and you'll have no problems.
Are you an insensitive munitions expert? Is Orest an insensitive munitions expert? I met Orest when I used to volunteer at Anniston. He is not a scientist or an engineer. Why should I accept him as an expert?

I had access to one of the chief Navy Insensitive Munitions experts (and there are not a lot of them) and that is when I found out that gunpowder not only has a shelf life, it gets worse with age. I also learned about the kinetics of gunpowder deterioration.

What sort of stability tests does the CMP do on the surplus ammunition they sell? And since they are in it for the money, why would they, or any other surplus ammunition seller be interested in telling the public that it might have issues?

I wish people would do their own independent research. Millions of tons of ammunition is scrapped each year because it is too old and too dangerous to issue to troops. All you have to do, on the journey to knowledge, is type in the words “Insensitive Munitions” into Google, DTIC, and just start reading the reports that appear.

I found this document, which is the meeting minutes between Nato Insensitive Munitions experts. For neophytes I believe the Bulgarian presentation the most useful for any discussion on the shelf life of small arms ammunition. Just look at who many tons of old ammunition they have to junk.
http://www.underwatermunitions..._disposal_-_NATO.pdf Environmental Impact of Munition and Propellant Disposal

Here are a few accounts of overpressure events with old ammunition:

Garand Blowup with WWII ball

http://www.thehighroad.org/showpost....3&postcount=13

Quote:
I have an old shooting buddy who some years ago was shooting some WWII ball (don’t know whose) but his M-1 was disassembled in a rather rapid fashion. He was lucky only his pride was hurt. He said he took a round apart and found rust looking dust along with the powder. Bad powder. Just sayin…..The op rod can be rebuilt which might be a good way to go. Op Rods are getting harder to find and when you find one a premium price is required so it seems. Garands require grease. I’m not sure if you are aware of this. If you are, please no offence taken.
http://www.thehighroad.org/sho...=7756780&postcount=6

Quote:
Although it's remotely possible that a defective load (very unlikely if factory ammo) or poorly stored ammo that had deterioated. I had some H450 go bad and an "accuracy" load from a .30/06 w/180gr bullet locked up the bolt and removed case looked like a belted magnum...... but gun was unharmed.... primer was blown however and pitted the bolt face...... I pulled down the rest of the ammo and powder "stunk" like vinegar and inside of cases were turning green from acid corrosion..... Ammo had only been loaded 6mos earlier... and powder looked and smelled "ok" then.

Garand Blowup with old US ammunition.

http://www.socnet.com/showthread.php?p=1344088
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There was a thread on another forum titeled “What’s in your ammo can” and many guys had old surpluss ammo so I told this story. Ty (arizonaguide) asked that I come put it here also so here it is boys, draw your own conclutions.

Back in the mid 80s my Dad and a bunch of us went shooting in Arizona. Dad had a couple thousand rounds of WWII surplus .30M1 (30-06) ammo that looked great on the outside cut his M1 in half in his hands. He was kneeling with elbow on knee when the first round of this ammo went BOOM! We were all pelted with sand and M1 shrapnel.

When the dust cleared Dad was rolling around on his back with buttstock in one hand, for stock in the other, barrel and receiver hanging by the sling around his arm trying to yell “mortar” thinking he was back on Okinawa in battle. The blast had removed his ear muffs, hat, glasses, and broke the headlight in my truck 15 feet away but Dad was only shook up and scratched a bit once he got his wits back. It sheared off the bolt lugs, blew open the receiver front ring, pushed all the guts out the bottom of the magazine, and turned the middle of the stock to splinters.

After a couple hours of picking up M1 shrapnel we headed to the loading bench and started pulling bullets. Some of the powder was fine, some was stuck together in clumps, and some had to be dug out with a stick. It didn’t smell and was not dusty like powder usuley is when it’s gone bad. Put it in a pie tin and light it and it seemed a tad fast but not so you would think it could do that, wasent like lighting a pistol powder even. He had 2000 rounds of this stuff and nun of us were in any mood to play with it much after what we watched so it all went onto a very entertaining desert bon fire. I got the M1 splinters when Dad died last year and will post pix here below for your parousal and entertainment.

Anyway, I no longer play with any ammo I am not 100% sure has always been stored properly . . . cheap shooting ain’t worth the risk to me anymore! I still buy surpluss if the price in right but I unload and reload it with powder I am sure of or just use the brass.

She was a good shooting servasable Winchester M1 before this.














Of all the compounds and elements in the universe, and there are a lot, why is only gunpowder the only compound that does not age? Everything else breaks down to a lower energy state, mountains, steel, stars all decay away, and yet, apparently gunpowder does not.

So what special properties do C rations and ammunition have that mean they never age and last forever?

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Old April 1, 2013, 02:42 PM   #9
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Are you an insensitive munitions expert?
Can't say that I am, also can't say with that is.

However I am a Court Certified "Bomb & Explosive" Expert as well as a Court Certified firearms expert. (Alaska Superior Court).

I'll get back to you after I do a bit of thinking, I just don't want to spout off without formulating a decent response.
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Old April 1, 2013, 04:09 PM   #10
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However I am a Court Certified "Bomb & Explosive" Expert as well as a Court Certified firearms expert. (Alaska Superior Court).

I'll get back to you after I do a bit of thinking, I just don't want to spout off without formulating a decent response.
That is impressive and you should be proud of your credentials.

However, I never knew that gunpowder had a lifetime till I ran into a real Insensitive Munitions Expert, a guy with a Phd in Chemical Engineering, wrote After Accident Reports on incidents that you and I will never hear about, because they will not be in the public domain, and he set munitions policies on Defense Department Boards.

And after discussing the chemistry, kinetics, and then doing my own research, I found just how ignorant I had been on this topic.

I believe the shooting public is kept in the dark about ammunition /gunpowder lifetime because it is not in the financial interests of the firearms industry. Instead what we read in Gun Magazines is rubbish about ammunition lasting forever, or when it ages, it becomes benign. Gun Magazines are in the same category of shilling as Travel magazines, they never say anything bad about a current product and everything in print is there to increase sales. If you knew that there might be issues with old gunpowder, old ammunition, you might not buy, you might demand expiration dates and be picky about only buying new. Industry does not want that, they want you to buy, and buy what is on the shelf and not expect a discount because it is old.

If you were to look at insensitive munitions literature you are going to find the primary concern is getting the old ammunition out of inventory before it explodes. This may be surprising to some, that the stuff will auto combust, but given the proper conditions, it will and it does. Each month an ammunition depot somewhere in the world is exploding. Other considerations for insensitive munitions guys is not having the ammunition blow up if it is dropped, heated, or hit by something. By the time ammunition becomes dangerous to shoot, it is really old and probably has been out of inventory for a while, so you won’t read too much about that.

Here are some links to things that describe the chemistry and the lifetime of gunpowders:

http://www.almc.army.mil/alog/issues...t_stab_eq.html


http://www.dtic.mil/dtic/tr/fulltext/u2/783499.pdf
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Old April 1, 2013, 06:59 PM   #11
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modern 30-06 is stronger than surplus...
if it's really old you might want to clean after use as it can be corrosive but otherwise it's fine
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Old April 1, 2013, 07:23 PM   #12
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Slamfire
Here are some links to things that describe the chemistry and the lifetime of gunpowders:

http://www.almc.army.mil/alog/issues...t_stab_eq.html

"Complete rounds, including ammunition for small arms, mortar, and artillery, are identified on stock records by the complete round lot number. When component lot information is listed, it contains lot numbers of items such as the fuse or the ball and tracer but not the propellant the rounds contain. The ammunition data card must be viewed to find the lot number of the propellant that is loaded into these rounds. In a number of cases, especially for small arms cartridges, the loaded propellant lot is not represented in the master sample program at APSL. Thus, much of the propellant loaded into cartridges of all calibers has not been tested for stability since the day it was loaded. For some older cartridges, this can mean the propellant has not been monitored since the 1950s or even earlier. Although the Army considers propellant in fixed rounds as not hazardous, when these rounds are no longer needed and are processed for demilitarization, propellant stability becomes an immediate safety issue."
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Old April 1, 2013, 10:46 PM   #13
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The question is, Whose Surplus, ours or someone else's? I have read of enough cases of people trying to fire military surplus ammo and getting nothing but duds with maybe every 5th round going off. And shooters getting the same result with old commercial ammo. IMHO-FWIW-old surplus of unknown provenance should be treated like someone else's reload-broken down for components but not fired.
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Old April 2, 2013, 08:29 AM   #14
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Although the Army considers propellant in fixed rounds as not hazardous, when these rounds are no longer needed and are processed for demilitarization, propellant stability becomes an immediate safety issue."

This is based on something the Army promotes as the “five inch rule”. While the Army agrees that the propellant in five inch or less artillery shells does go bad in the shell, they just don’t consider an autocatalytic combustion risk while it is in the shell. The Army has created this self serving idea that the thermal mass of a five inch or less cartridge casing will conduct heat away from bad propellant and prevent the heat build up which occurs prior to autocatalytic combustion. My Navy Insensitive Munitions expert considers this bogus, a bogus theory created by people receiving cash awards when they "extend" stockpile lifetime or defer demilling costs to out years. He based that on the number of large holes in the ground at Navy Depots that he wrote the after action reports. It is his opinion that munitions will explode, given enough deterioration, whether or not they are five inches or less. None of his incidents are in the public domain because I Googled them and no information is out there.

But if you do notice, the Army agrees once that propellant is removed from the shell and put in large containers, the whole pile of propellant can autocombust.

Which is why all that gunpowder left out at Camp Minden Loiusiana created such a concern:

http://www.examiner.com/article/11-m...injures-man-al
http://www.foxnews.com/us/2012/10/16...-in-louisiana/
http://beforeitsnews.com/earthquakes...n-2445662.html
http://www.ksla.com/story/5281639/ex...munition-plant

Look at the picture here:
http://www.ktbs.com/news/Louisiana-c...2/-/index.html

Incidentally the state of Louisiana is looking for someone to take possession of the 10 million pounds of old, obsolete, and dangerous gunpowder.

Any takers?
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Old April 2, 2013, 08:32 AM   #15
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I fire 30-50 year old ammo is my mosin nagant regularly and never have any issues.
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Old April 2, 2013, 04:53 PM   #16
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Cant hunt with the fmj here but we do shoot it up at the range.

So the cannon ball scene in the movie sahara is fake? civil war cannon ball exploded that ol chopper killing the bad guy.....

In Pyro, we learn thru chemistry that components break down into useless compositions in say 100 years or so, including the BP we make, so whats the diff here?


Or are we doing something to it when we make it makes it last longer? or maybe how it is stored? or.....
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Old April 2, 2013, 07:33 PM   #17
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In Pyro, we learn thru chemistry that components break down into useless compositions in say 100 years or so, including the BP we make, so whats the diff here?


Or are we doing something to it when we make it makes it last longer? or maybe how it is stored? or.....
I don't know about the lifetime of Black Powder other than I have heard that as long as it is kept dry it is as explosive as the day it left the factory.

Smokeless powders are entirely different. Their primary constituent is nitrocellulose. Insensitive munitions experts know that nitrocellulose is the primary constituent in most "propellants", be that cannon powder, rocket motors, or small arms ammunition. The different propellants are all chemically similiar and are all lumped under the names "smokless propellants" in the literature.

Nitrocellulose decomposes through the reduction-oxidation process. Called Redox. The expert said “The molecular stability of the functional groups on the organic chain determine the life time of the nitrocellulose molecule.” All ionic compounds, water is the main offender because it is always in air, react with those bonds and accelerates the deterioration of the powder.

The bottom line is that nitrocellulose is a high energy molecule that wants to become a low energy molecule.

Heat accelerates the deterioration/decomposition of powder and the rate is directly proportional to the Arrhenius equation. If you read in the Insensitive munitions literature, you will see that they use high temperature to accelerate aging of smokeless propellants.

ROLE OF DIPHENYLAMINE AS A STABILIZER IN PROPELLANTS;
ANALYTICAL CHEMISTRY OF DIPHENYLAMINE IN PROPELLANTS
Quote:
Nitrocellulose-base propellants are essentially unstable materials
that decompose on aging with the evolution of oxides of nitrogen. The
decomposition is autocatalytic and can lead to failure of the ammunition or disastrous explosions.
http://www.dtic.mil/dtic/tr/fulltext/u2/783499.pdf

Heat, as you can see in the report, will age gunpowder




Combustion pressures will rise after high temperature storage.

INVESTIGATION OF THE BALLISTIC AND CHEMICAL STABILITY OF 7.62MM AMMUNITION LOADED WITH BALL AND IMR PROPELLANT

Frankfort Arsenal 1962

3. Effects of Accelerated Storage Propellant and Primer Performance

To determine the effect of accelerated isothermal storage upon propellant and primer performance, sixty cartridges from each of lots E (WC 846) and G (R 1475) were removed from 150F storage after 26 and 42 weeks, respectively. The bullets were then removed from half the cartridges of each lot and from an equal number of each lot previously stored at 70F. The propellants were then interchanged, the bullets re-inserted, and the cases recrimped. Thus, four variations of stored components were obtained with each lot.

Chamber pressures yielded by ammunition incorporating these four variations were as follows. These values represent averages of 20 firings.





Double based powders have a reduced lifetime compared with single base. Double based powders have nitroglycerin (NG) in the grain. Nitroglycerine remains a liquid and it migrates within the grain to react with the NO bonds on the nitrocellulose, increasing the rate of reduction-oxidation reaction. All ionic compounds react with those bonds and accelerate the deterioration of the powder. Rust is bad as ferric oxide is ionic. Water is polar covalent ion and is ever present in the air.


Section from the Propellant Management Guide:

Stabilizers are chemical ingredients added to propellant at time of manufacture to
decrease the rate of propellant degradation and reduce the probability of auto ignition during its expected useful life.

As nitrocellulose-based propellants decompose, they release nitrogen oxides. If the nitrogen oxides are left free to react in the propellant, they can react with the nitrate ester, causing further decomposition and additional release of nitrogen oxides. The reaction between the nitrate ester and the nitrogen oxides is exothermic (i.e., the reaction produces heat). Heat increases the rate of propellant decomposition. More importantly, the exothermic nature of the reaction creates a problem if sufficient heat is generated to initiate combustion. Chemical additives, referred to as stabilizers, are added to propellant formulations to react with free nitrogen oxides to prevent their attack on the nitrate esters in the propellant. The stabilizers are scavengers that act rather like sponges, and once they become “saturated” they are no longer able to remove nitrogen oxides from the propellant. Self-heating of the propellant can occur unabated at the “saturation” point without the ameliorating effect of the stabilizer. Once begun, the self-heating may become sufficient to cause auto ignition.


The Armed Forces have stockpile surveillance programs but each Service does theirs a little differently. If you want to see all the different tests the military uses to determine propellant characteristics, look at Mils Std 286 Propellants, Solid: Sampling, Examination and Testing to be found at https://assist.daps.dla.mil/quicksearch/.

If you look, you will find aging tests. One common test is for powder to be kept at 65 C (150 F) until it fumes. It if fumes within 30 days it is checked for stabilizer or scrapped.

The Navy expert told me a few ways the Navy samples its powders and propellants. If the powder is outgassing nitric gas (as determined by change of color of methly violet paper in contact with the powder (Methly Violet test, or Talliani test)), the stuff is tested to see how much stabilizer is left. If the amount is less than or equal to 20%, the lot is scrapped.

Scrapping powders and propellants with this percentage of stabilizer appears to be consistent across all services.

The problem you have with old surplus ammunition is that you don't know how it was stored. If it was stored in hot envirnoments then the stuff is likely to be very bad.

A few years ago Pakistani ammunition got a deserved bad reputation because a number of rifles blew up with the stuff. Most ignorant American's simply applied simplistic thinking, mostly based on stupid assumptions: that Pakistani ammunition blew up because it was made by Pakistani’s. I think it is more reasonable to assume that Pakistani industry made perfectly good ammunition and the stuff sat around long enough, could have been in the hot sun, and Pakistani munitions experts realized this stuff was too dangerous to issue to their troops, but it was perfectly fine to sell to unsuspecting Americans. Who bought it thinking they got a bargin. There is a reason this stuff is cheap.

Pakistani 303 ammunition.







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Old April 5, 2013, 05:22 AM   #18
radom
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Back to the original guestion yes you can with no issue as folks have been doing it for like 100 plus years, they just dont keep the stuff stored in a oven on preheat for a year till they shoot it is all.
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Old April 5, 2013, 06:16 AM   #19
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Slamfire is dead-on. Dealing in a parallel universe testing and recertifying ejection seat cartridges for 1950's era Russian MiGs has been one of my life experiences, and his observations are identical to those made by the lab scientists (propellent engineers) we hired to do our cartridge recertifications.

While old propellant may burn, it's not the same stuff that was loaded decades before. US Military storage is excellent, which likely plays into the very good experience many of us (myself included) have had with 1950's thru present day US (CMP) issue ammo. Having shot 10,000 rounds of it in .30-06 thru Garands, I am confident in the stuff. HOWEVER: Actual mileage varys though, a friend lost his $100K registered MG-42 to a catrastrophic failure of old ammunition. I've myself just now comissioned manufacture of a semi-auto FG-42 in 7.92x57 and I can assure you that no surplus ammunition will go thru it, and that is with about 10,000 rounds of 1960's and 1970's surplus 7.92x57 surplus ammo in my bunker. I can not justify taking a chance destroying a bespoke-manufacture rifle worth $6K trying to save a few dollars. One of these custom rifles has already been destroyed by surplus ammunition.

To the OP: There is nothing inherantly "bad" about shooting quality military ammunition thru a sporting rifle. Define "quality" as you wish. Very little military ammunition was bad when it was manufactured. Age does it no favors.


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Old April 5, 2013, 07:23 AM   #20
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On the Garand catastrophic failure above there is a key piece of evidence missing from the picture. There are seven cases in the pic, where is the 8th case that was in the chamber?

I suspect if it were available this is what would be seen.



This round was loaded for Greek Army by Brit firm in the 1950s. It was the 17th round fired by friend in his M1 Garand about 8 months back and the same thing happened to his rifle.

This is known as a case head failure. Note the primer shows no indication of excessive pressure. It is simply a faulty case head referred to in our ordnance publications as a L or M split.



Same case opposite side showing "L" splits. "M" splits go through case head from the center to through the rim.

A flaw in the brass could cause this or going through the stress relief line upside down where the flames soften the head is guaranteed to do it to you.

At Frankford this was estimated based on the number of rounds loaded and blown rifles received to occur about every 30 million rounds. About once every ten days at 3 million rounds a day.

In the business we lovingly referred to once fired cases as "proof fired" as those we know were correctly fabricated and were safe to shoot again. This is just the chance you take with new unfired cases.

On high pressure cases you will have a case with an enlarged primer pocket and the case will often be almost welded into chamber and takes considerable force to remove. High pressure rounds tend to cause barrel failures about four inches in front of the receiver.

I did a high pressure investigation where there was an estimated 90,000lb pressure on a case. The case was intact inside the chamber but the primer pocket looked like a 50 cal BMG primer would go in just fine.

To remove the case required cutting a rod about 1" longer out the muzzle and placing barreled action in a floor mounted arbor press with 4" square ram with the receiver on the floor supported by piece of plywood and the ram eased down applying vertical force down the rod onto the web area of the case.

I pulled on the five foot long handle and it did not move. I grabbed hold of bar with both hands and as my feet were just leaving the floor it broke loose out of the chamber. At that time I weighed 215 lbs.

This was caused by referring to a Frankford Arsenal publication for the proof load and the published info called for 4198. The drawing was pulled and the drawing called for the same load of 4895 thusly someone wrote in the wrong data when the FA PAM was published. The case was previously fired so in that instance we knew the complete history.

Most military cases US loaded will show a blue tint around the case mouth and to about 1/4" below the shoulder where it has been stress relieved prior to loading. All new military ammo should be examined to make sure the blue is on the pointed end and not the case head or the above will be the result.

On those cases that have been cleaned (commercial) it is impossible to tell which ones go through upside down and if the inspector doesn't catch it you will find it.
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Last edited by Hummer70; April 5, 2013 at 07:39 AM.
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Old April 5, 2013, 07:48 AM   #21
Tim R
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An old friend of mine who worked in the ammo field for the US Navy had a Eifle blow up on him using old surplus ammo. Thank goodnes for strong USGI actions. After the incident he took a cartridge apart to find brown dusty powder inside. Brown dust in your powder is best used in the garden because it's gone bad.

Remember WW2 ammo is going on 70 years old now. That powder won't last forever and as for the ney sayers, chances are getting better for you to get bit.
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Old April 5, 2013, 07:57 AM   #22
madcratebuilder
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The old ammo I have shot has generally been OK. I don't shoot anything with corrosion on the case.

This Caliber .30 for the Model 1898 Rifle was made in 1917. I fired ten rounds last week. It was wonderful.



This short Krag loved it.




I shot some M1 ball that goes back to war1 and tons of M2 from war2
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Old April 5, 2013, 08:58 AM   #23
kraigwy
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That's a nice looking rifle.

What's the chance of more pictures.

I love the Krag's, My 1898 is the smoothest bolt action rifle I have including some my '03A3 which is suppose to be the smoothest American Military Smoothest action. It's smooth but not like my Krag.
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Old April 5, 2013, 09:52 AM   #24
Hummer70
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When I cranked up on the M16A1 test at the Proving Ground we generated about 2/3rds of a 30 gal trash can full of brass during initial function firing of all the rifles we received. On the initial firing we had to visually hand inspect every case for signs of case failure so three of the gun crew and myself sat down and start looking at every fired case and as luck would have it with three cases left in the bottom of the barrel I pulled them out and found a L spit but there was no drama on that one.

Ammo surveilance used to be handled by the Ammo Surveilance folks and they had pros who did nothing in the world wide ammo depots but go in and open cases and inspect for deterriorated ammo.

They tried to recruit me as I wanted nothing to do with ammo I couldn't shoot haha.
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Old April 5, 2013, 04:01 PM   #25
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Quote:
On the Garand catastrophic failure above there is a key piece of evidence missing from the picture. There are seven cases in the pic, where is the 8th case that was in the chamber?
I am limited to posting six pictures per post on this website.

Anyway, it appears that the front end of the case is still in the chamber.
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