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Old May 1, 2013, 09:40 AM   #101
gaseousclay
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The NRA t-shirt is only divisive because of the media portrayal of the NRA. I fail to see how an organization that promotes responsible firearms ownership and practices is more politically disruptive than some punk kid wearing a Che t-shirt.
guess we'll have to agree to disagree. I think the NRA does a pretty good job on its own portraying itself as out of touch with non-gun owners in America. Wayne LaPierre and Ted Nugent have both done more harm than good just by opening their mouths. the NRA at one point in time, say 50 yrs ago, promoted responsible firearm ownership and training. today not so much
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Old May 1, 2013, 10:18 AM   #102
Brian Pfleuger
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The organization on the shirt is completely and utterly irrelevant. Freedom of speech and expression does not end at the school house doors. I don't know how the plain old logic or jurisprudence, if the logic's not good enough for folks, on that matter could be any more clear. Controversial subject matter is not a violation of dress code. Dress code that prohibits controversial subject matter ON THE SUPPOSED MERITS OF THE SUBJECT is unconstitutional.

Quote:
Originally Posted by MTGreen
If we are trying to teach our kids how to support and defend the right to keep and bear arms, we should also teach them how to properly address the inevitable conflicts that will arise. An essential element in this effort is the recognition of and respect for authority, even when it is improperly exercised. Respecting authority is a first step to understanding how to effectively address the misuse or abuse of authority through appeal to a higher authority.
Respectful, polite behavior is one thing. Quiet acquiescence, quite another. We do not keep our rights by quietly giving them up. The history books are not filled folks who sat down and quietly capitulated rather than standing up for what was right.
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Old May 1, 2013, 10:29 AM   #103
Al Norris
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If the teacher truly thought the t-shirt was disruptive, or even merely objectionable, the adult thing to do was to take the kid out of the very public area (the lunchroom), to disrobe and/or turn it inside-out.

None of this needed to happen in the manner it did.

The teacher acted in a disruptive manner, as befits a supposed 14 yr. old, not as befits an adult.
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Old May 1, 2013, 11:12 AM   #104
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I actually applaud when schools treat students in an arbitrary and capricious manner. I think it is an important life lesson for 8th, 9th, 10th graders to experience the condescending attitude of the occasional bad teacher, and the abuse of power by narrow minded administrators. Every student who experiences this will gain an appreciation for the Bill of Rights… They will learn to distinguish between good leadership and bad, and to question authority when appropriate.

All those students who showed up on Monday wearing NRA T-shirts learned a very important civics lesson. It might be the most significant lesson they learned all semester.
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Old May 1, 2013, 12:10 PM   #105
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gaseousclay, we disagree on disingenuousness.

Amnesty has been consistently anti death penalty. Believe it or not, that is a controversial position, and was truly so in Florida during the time of Ted Bundy (when I was in high school and college).

Apartheid was not viewed as a bad thing by the South African government, even if we were generally opposed to it in the US by the 1980s and 1990s. But go back two decades, and wear a shirt opposing segregation in Mississippi or Alabama, and what happens?

What you consider disingenuous, I consider study under broader context.

However, if you want to take a narrow, today-only view, what if Laudieri had worn a Planned Parenthood t-shirt? (Abortion planning and the handing out of contraceptives to minors without parental permission are at least somewhat controversial, no?)
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Old May 1, 2013, 12:20 PM   #106
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gaseousclay
Wayne LaPierre and Ted Nugent have both done more harm than good just by opening their mouths. the NRA at one point in time, say 50 yrs ago, promoted responsible firearm ownership and training. today not so much
You know what makes responsible firearm ownership and training very difficult? Laws that do not let one own firearms and train with them.

The only time I have seen Ted Nugent speak as a defender of the Second Amendment was in a clip from the Pierce Morgan program. I think he did well in that format.

I do sometimes find Wayne LaPierre frustratingly inarticulate, but as an advocate he is generally superior to Charlton Heston. Charlton Heston was better as an advocate than his predecessor, the stocky bald fellow whose name escapes me at the moment.

It would be neat if William F Buckley Jr were still around and serving as the primary advocate for the NRA, but there is no improvement in making the perfect the enemy of the good.
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Old May 1, 2013, 01:44 PM   #107
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the NRA at one point in time, say 50 yrs ago, promoted responsible firearm ownership and training. today not so much
I do not believe this is true. The NRA today promotes exactly the same responsible ownership and training as they did then. The difference is that isn't what you hear or see on the news. Virtually ALL you see in the news is the NRA's opposition to policies and politics that restrict (or even prohibit) gun owners constutional rights. It is not the same thing.

I will agree that NRA spokesmen have not been the most charismatic or most effective possible, particularly in media edited sound bites. But their basic message of safety and responsibility has not changed.

What the media is not telling us is that NO ONE, not any govt agency or program, or any private group has the track record for pushing safety and resposibility that the NRA does.

All the media can seem to do these days is paint us with the same broad brush as murdering nut cases, simply because the NRA says "we aren't them, and shouldn't be punished for what they do..." And twisting anything else the NRA says to put it in the worst possible light.
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Old May 1, 2013, 06:36 PM   #108
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I agree most 14 year olds do not know how to handle conflicts with adults, that is why students should obey directions from people in authority that are not harmful to themselves or others, and let their parents know so adults can handle the conflict. People without the ability to properly confront authority should not be encouraged to confront it.
Not when it involves something as invasive as being told to remove/change your clothes.
Not when your in the right and know the rules.
Not when backing down strips you of your rights then-and-there and latter complaints will fall on deaf school board ears.
If he would have caved there would be no justice for the kid and no lessen learned by the school.
And he didnt confront authority, he was pounced by it and he stood his ground, there is a difference and a distinction.

MT, I appreciate that your a teacher, tough job for sure... but your in a gun forum, our protection of 2a as well as the others is pretty staunch. Your in the wrong place if your hoping to find much support for bowing down and doing what some stupid Right-violating politically motivated teacher says to do.
Your position reeks of wishing for utter compliance with instruction - right or wrong - and simply put...an easy day at work.
Fact is, the teacher was ignorant in several ways... and the kid was right, period.
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Old May 1, 2013, 08:22 PM   #109
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Dashunde,

I understand that you feel my position reeks, but it has nothing to do with wanting an easy day at work. Telling a kid how to dress is something most teachers are not willing to do. That is the easy route, and I am sure something we agree the teacher should have done in this situation.

I certainly understand the forum I am in, and I fully support 2A rights along with most who post on this forum.

This issue I spoke to on this tread is not whether to stand or bow, but when, where, who and how to stand in a difficult environment. Getting arrested and hiring lawyers might sound right to you, but it is something I will avoid if there are viable alternatives.

Last edited by MTGreen; May 1, 2013 at 08:23 PM. Reason: typo
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Old May 1, 2013, 08:53 PM   #110
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I understand that you feel my position reeks, but it has nothing to do with wanting an easy day at work. Telling a kid how to dress is something most teachers are not willing to do. That is the easy route, and I am sure something we agree the teacher should have done in this situation.
IMHO the teacher should have minded his own business. The teacher created a disturbance by not knowing the rules he was enforcing, and blamed the kid for it. Then the principal escalated the problem instead of dealing with it. And you expect the kid to be the adult in this situation?
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Old May 1, 2013, 11:42 PM   #111
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I'm looking to pursue an education degree myself, and if I was in the teachers position, I would have requested the child come with me, away from the crowd and then politely state that I do not believe the shirt is appropriate at this time and tell him why.

To play the devils advocate here, I would simply say, in light of recent events with Sandy hook among others, I think it would be prudent that he change his shirt so not to unintentionally make others feel uncomfortable and if he would please change into something else.

There, that's easy, no harm done. If the child refused, I will ask once again, and if he still refuses, I will say I will need to speak with his parents on the matter and then let him go on his way.

I would then inform the principle and request a teacher parent conference so that we may discuss this situation in private.

Clean, professional and no big fuss created (in public at least). Of course I don't have an issue with the shirt, what I take issue with is that according to the written school dress code, as stated on their website, the 14 year old was completely within the boundaries of the schools dress code regulations.

The teacher was wrong to make a fuss out in the open, the teacher was even further in the wrong for demanding that the student disrobe and change, despite him not breaking any rules, and the police were wrong to arrest the child IMHO. This is what I believe based on what limited information we have.

My opinion may or may not change if/when we get more information on what exactly went on. However, which ever way you look at it, the teacher could have handled this much much better, so to avoid all this headache.
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Old May 1, 2013, 11:50 PM   #112
fragtagninja
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This exact same thing has already happened once and been decided in the supreme court.

http://www.oyez.org/cases/1960-1969/1968/1968_21

Great website btw. I visit it at least once a month.
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Old May 2, 2013, 05:23 AM   #113
Aguila Blanca
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MTGreen
If we are trying to teach our kids how to support and defend the right to keep and bear arms, we should also teach them how to properly address the inevitable conflicts that will arise. An essential element in this effort is the recognition of and respect for authority, even when it is improperly exercised. Respecting authority is a first step to understanding how to effectively address the misuse or abuse of authority through appeal to a higher authority.
I'm sorry, but you lost me when you suggested that authority should be respected even when improperly exercised. So you're saying I should respect a cop if he breaks down my front door and searches my house with no warrant? I should respect a cop if he pulls my car over because he thinks I'm the wrong color to be driving in that neighborhood? Sorry, but in "a nation of laws" that's not how it works. Authority that is exercised improperly deserves no respect whatsoever.
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Old May 2, 2013, 07:52 AM   #114
Dashunde
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Authority that is exercised improperly deserves no respect whatsoever.
Its should also be challenged right there on the spot... but you better be right and polite... then let authority dig themselves a deeper hole.
Challenging it later will rarely have the same effect or impact - this kid hit the news because he stood his ground and the adults continued to make mistakes.

Quote:
To play the devils advocate here, I would simply say, in light of recent events with Sandy hook among others, I think it would be prudent that he change his shirt so not to unintentionally make others feel uncomfortable and if he would please change into something else.

There, that's easy, no harm done.
Sandy Hook has nothing to do with this and none of us should be hanging our heads low or feeling like we need to be overly considerate to the softbrained folks who think we and the firearms industry are to blame for Lanza's actions.

The harm done is the violation of the kids personal space and his right to free speech and expression.
You cant undo that.

Furthermore, I suspect that many kids do just go ahead and change their clothes whether they are breaking a rule or not, thus setting a pattern of de facto stripping of rights that bolsters the authority figures assumption that they can get away with it because few complain later, and if they do...so what, no harm done, right?
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Old May 2, 2013, 08:26 AM   #115
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Dashunde, not to sound rude, but please re-read my post.

I was putting myself in the teachers shoes, trying to picture myself in their position and having their personal/politcal opinions and seeing how I would have handled the situation, wrong or not.

When I say "No harm done" I'm talking about the immediate damage of publicly humiliating the student, and possibly inciting the crowd. There was a professional means to accomplish the request without causing a massive fuss. I know the teacher was in the wrong, I'm not arguing against that, I'm not even siding with them. I'm trying to make a point that the teacher could have handled this in a much better fashion.

Pulling the child aside, politely requesting they change clothes, inputting some personal reasons among others (From my own experience, people who would be uncomfortable with something as benign as a shirt, especially one such as this, are reacting from an emotional experience) and then insisting where necessary but not going beyond that. Stating they will need to speak with the parent if they decline, and holding a PRIVATE discussion with them along with the school principle would have been the best course of action if the teacher felt that the shirt was truly inappropriate and had reacted responsibly.

Understand, I do NOT agree that the teacher was right, in what he/she did. I am simply stating what I would have done if I shared his/her beliefs and were the one employed at that particular school.
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Old May 2, 2013, 11:16 AM   #116
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Kimio, I think Dashunde is saying that if you are going to put yourself into the teacher's shoes and come up with the proper way to have handled this issue, then the correct way to handle it is ...... drum roll please ........ Leave the kid alone there is nothing wrong with his shirt.

No one should be missing the timing here, Sandy Hook is an excuse at this point, the action in Congress, the failure of the new gun control Bill and it's bipartisan amendments is what is key.

This is my read on the whole thing, it's certainly speculative but I don't think it's too far out there.

1st thing, set the venue. A small school in a small town, every one knows ever one else.

The student's step-father is Laudieri of BlackRifle and I would think it's not a long stretch to say that other kids in the school talk about gun stuff frequently. I don't think it's a stretch to say the teacher is more then aware of who the student's father is and what he does.

This happens Thursday, a day when the news is full of coverage on the new Gun Control Bill, the Bi-Partisan Amendment, and news that it's running into trouble, losing steam, and yea, it's going to fail.

Here comes lunch time and all the kids are in the cafeteria. Our favorite teacher, who is anti-gun is there. He is not happy that this 'reasonable" effort to enact "common sense" laws is being defeated by the NRA, a mouth piece for the evil and morally corrupt gun industry.

And in walks Laudieri's son wearing an NRA t-shirt that has an AR-15 pictured on the front.......

The stage is set.
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Old May 2, 2013, 11:16 AM   #117
Dashunde
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kimio
if I was in the teachers position, I would have requested the child come with me, away from the crowd and then politely state that I do not believe the shirt is appropriate
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kimio
trying to picture myself in their position and having their personal/politcal opinions and seeing how I would have handled the situation
I understand you dont agree with them or share their views, but...

The teachers beliefs or personal/political opinions are not relevant in the first place - the only thing relevant is the schools established dress code policy and the civil rights of the kid. The teachers situation & position is one of their own making because they erroneously thought their beliefs/views had any bearing.
It’s the schools dress code - not the teacher's. The teacher is responsible for knowing and clearly understanding the policy and applying it without contortion by personal beliefs.

The kid should never have been approached, let alone pulled aside or otherwise confronted unless the shirt clearly violates policy based on fact.
If shirt is borderline or questionable the teacher should have simply brought it to the attention of the administrators and let them decide what to do, or not to do.
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Old May 2, 2013, 11:35 AM   #118
Kimio
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Fair enough, regardless, the damage is done, and I sure hope a very loud and clear message is delivered to this teacher, the school as well as anyone on their school board that this kind of stuff will not be tolerated by the people.
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Old May 2, 2013, 12:37 PM   #119
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I have to disagree with some some of the postings here that say (to paraphrase) that AN 8th GRADE STUDENT should be exercising judgment over whether to obey or disobey an order by a teacher or other school authority.

I am sorry, but when I was in school (circa 1978) my Dada made it very clear that I was to obey all directions from teachers, even if they seemed stupid, lame, wrong, arbitrary, or unjust. I was forbidden from arguing with teachers, even if I knew I was right. If I felt I had been mistreated (on several occasions I felt this way), I was to discuss it with my Mom and Dad that evening. If they judged that there was a problem, they would call the school the next day.

If I had been this student with the NRA shirt, I absolutely would have turned the shirt inside out, right there in the cafeteria. I would have steamed about it all afternoon, and I would have given my Dad and earful that evening. I have no doubt he would have blown a gasket and taken a day off of work to chew on the teacher and principle.... BUT if I had refused the teachers order, he would have kicked my butt.

Much of the discipline problems in schools today is caused by children who feel free to disregard the instructions of teachers because they know their parents will take their side.

An important life lesson that all young people must learn is the ability to endure stupid rules and policies. Not to accept them, but to endure them until they can be changed. Without this ability, the young person will never function well in any large organization (corporation, military, etc).

As I said in an earlier post... being on the receiving end of bad leadership and bullying authority is also a good life lesson. It makes one appreciate our consitution and the idea of liberty and limited government. It makes for adults who hear about new proposals to restrict our rights and they think "Oh God, that sounds like High School all over again!"...
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Old May 2, 2013, 12:56 PM   #120
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btnj, Your dad taught you right for back then. but these kids and ourselves aren't living back then, maybe we can get back there a little, but for now we aren't back there.

In those days teachers were trusted, responsible, and schools mostly didn't need lawyers.

Today, schools send notes home about school trips along with a letter that says the kid can only go if you waive your right to hold them legally responsible for the child's safety. No matter how negligent a bus driver might be, they want you to agree you won't sue them if your kid get's hurt.

So today, in an age where schools and by association teachers, don't want to be held accountable, you have to have your kid take some personal responsibility for his own self. I now, 14 is too young for that, but that's what you have to do.
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Old May 2, 2013, 02:31 PM   #121
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West Virginia teen arrested for wearing NRA shirt to school Reply to Thread

Most likely, we are not hearing the entire story. As you know, there are 3 sides to every story. The plaintiffs, the defendants and the truth! So, its not always so easy to pass judgement on decisions that were made when the facts come out to what actually happened. I have 32 years of experience in crazy things that happen in schools today! Its also important to note that when our founding fathers wrote the amendments to our constitution, it seems evident that they were meant to guard against the type of politicians that seem to be in greater and greater numbers today!
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Old May 2, 2013, 08:23 PM   #122
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Quote:
this issue involved defiance that resulted in a disruption.
I am interested in how you drew this conclusion ? I have read nothing that states that the young man was "defiant" Merely that he would not remove a shirt that was, by all accounts, within dress code.
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Old May 2, 2013, 11:53 PM   #123
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Btmj, I was taught the same thing about teachers. It got me assaulted by one teacher for no other reason than he was having a bad day. I hadn't even raised my voice. The bruises on my chest took weeks to fade. It got me emotionally tortured by another ( just so you don't think that this is an exaggeration, she admitted to another teacher she was attempting to "break" me so she could "remold" me.). Keep in mind, I wasn't any sort of discipline problem, and was an A-B student in mostly advanced classes.

My own experience taught me that sort of attitude is dangerous, I certainly wasn't going to put my children in the same vulnerable place. What I found when I started looking hard at my children's teachers that they were simply not in the same class as the great majority of the ones who taught me. They would have eaten this generation of teachers alive and whole.

The abusive and incompetent teachers I dealt with were isolated from their peers and held in great contempt by them. The people who rescued me from these jerks were the other teachers who voluntarily turned them in, then stood by me.

I found good teachers like this in my children's lives as well, but to my disappointment they were the hounded minority.

As for the teachers who now want the unquestioned authority that teachers used to have, I have one word for you, NO!

This authority they had allowed abuse to occur in the dark where no one would listen to the victim.

If you're concerned about the lack of respect in your classroom I have similarly harsh words for you, if you want respect, it's still readily available to you, the difference being now you have to earn it. Those good teachers I talked about that my kids had? They were all treated very respectfully by their students. I volunteered in those classrooms and saw first hand.

There was a complete lack of respect displayed here, by the teacher. To ask a student to change how he was dressed, when he was not out of compliance with the school dress code, and was in fact endorsing the Bill of Rights included in our Constitution (the phrase on the shirt was"protect your rights" with a symbol that clearly pointed to the second amendment.) was very clearly and completely disrespectful of the students rights. The gathered students then followed the teachers lead and learned the lesson he was teaching by his actions.
Treating others disrespectfully is okay as long as you feel strongly about what you're doing and you have the authority (or in the students case numbers) to get away with it was the lesson that teacher was teaching. The students then demonstrated they had learned this lesson to the teacher involved immediately.
A bad lesson taught, the same bad lesson learned, and in fact convincingly demonstrated. A black eye for our school system.
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Old May 3, 2013, 12:47 AM   #124
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1st amendment rights have become increasingly restricted. They are arbitrary and capricious.
The same is true of discipline for students. Kids are being suspended or even arrested for things which would have just sent them to the principles office a couple decades ago.

This goes hand in hand with the general weakening of the 1st, 4th, and 5th amendments since the eighties.
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Old May 3, 2013, 05:23 PM   #125
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The whole thing is silly and never should of went as far as it did but some school workers seem to think they can do whatever they want.

Last edited by Vanya; May 3, 2013 at 05:42 PM. Reason: bit of a tasteless joke.
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