The Firing Line Forums

Go Back   The Firing Line Forums > Hogan's Alley > Tactics and Training

Closed Thread
 
Thread Tools
Old April 17, 2013, 12:22 PM   #1
number 9
Member
 
Join Date: February 6, 2013
Posts: 40
Pass throughs and the 9mm

I am in search of information concerning pass throughs with 9mm loads. I shoot regularly with persons that work or travel in congested urban areas. The subject of pass throughs is always discussed however as every shot is a science unto itself we have not discovered a training process to approach this situation.

When looked at from the prospective of the cal/ muzzle velocity/ projectile type as reloaders these can be easily modified, however all must preform its function as designed or will be for naught.

Law enforcement have the potential to be confronted with this situation on a daily basis although I am not privy to their info or have not turned over the right rock yet.

I am aware of Col. Coopers laws and abide by them although a close environment makes it difficult at best to see beyond the target.

I understand there is no one size fits all clear cut answer to this issue, just looking for suggestions as to how to approach this.

Thanks, Leonard
number 9 is offline  
Old April 17, 2013, 01:21 PM   #2
sfmedic
Senior Member
 
Join Date: December 2, 2012
Location: Currently Erbil, Iraq
Posts: 106
i think i may be having a stroke

what are you talking about?
sfmedic is offline  
Old April 17, 2013, 02:47 PM   #3
sigcurious
Senior Member
 
Join Date: May 25, 2011
Posts: 1,755
I think he is inquiring about how to minimize risks associated with over penetration, or misses, during a self defense situation in an urban/crowded environment, where there is a higher likelihood of having people behind the intended target and beyond.
sigcurious is offline  
Old April 17, 2013, 05:02 PM   #4
Newton24b
Junior member
 
Join Date: February 10, 2009
Posts: 974
if your worried about this,,,,,,,, dont be. if its useful for self defense it will go through at normal self defense range. if it doesnt, well its not useful for self defense.
Newton24b is offline  
Old April 17, 2013, 05:06 PM   #5
g.willikers
Senior Member
 
Join Date: September 28, 2008
Posts: 5,406
Got it.
That does seem what the discussion is about.
It is, indeed, a serious subject.
And probably why there's strong support of gun control in crowded cities.
But a fired bullet is just what it is intended to be, dangerous.
About the best that can be done about that is don't miss the intended target, and use expanding bullets that stay in the target.
And maybe trying to stay aware of what is in the distance, that might stop a bullet without harm.
But above all, be danged sure of things before launching bullets into the world.
__________________
Lock the doors, they're coming in the windows.
g.willikers is offline  
Old April 17, 2013, 06:32 PM   #6
Mello2u
Senior Member
 
Join Date: February 21, 2009
Location: Georgia
Posts: 1,424
Quote:
number 9

Pass throughs and the 9mm
If you are concerned about over-penetration of 9mm bullets, consider that if the bullet is a hollow point design, and that bullet deforms and dumps most of its energy in the intended target, yet still penetrates that target and continues on its path; it will have a fraction of its initial energy left. It is unlikely that it is going to inflict an incapacitating wound in its next encountered person.

To put it another way:

Urey W. Patrick, Firearms Training Unit, stated in his "FBI 10mm Notes" 1991, Page 6; In response to the question, "Aren't you afraid of over-penetration?"

"The fear of over penetration is a misconception, which was created back when law enforcement was trying to overcome misinformed public resistance to the use of hollow point ammunition. In the process, we began to believe it ourselves. First, our lawyers are unaware of any successful legal action resulting from the injury of a bystander due to a round over-penetrating the subject. We are aware of numerous instances of Agents/officers being killed because their round did not penetrate enough (Grogan and Dove, for example). Further, if you examine shooting statistics you will see that officers shot the subject somewhere around 20 - 30% of the time. Thus 70 - 80% of the shots fired never hit their intended target, and nobody ever worries about them - only the ones that might "over penetrate" the bad guy. Third, as our testing shows, even the most frangible bullets designed specifically for shallow penetration will plug up when striking wood or wallboard and then penetrate like full metal jacketed ammunition. We are aware of successful legal actions where an innocent party has been struck by a shot passing through a wall, but as we have proven, ALL of them will do that."
__________________
NRA Life Member - Orange Gunsite Member - NRA Certified Pistol Instructor
"When plunder becomes a way of life for a group of men living together in society,
they create for themselves in the course of time a legal system that authorizes it and a moral code that justifies it.
" Frederic Bastiat
Mello2u is offline  
Old April 17, 2013, 07:54 PM   #7
ClydeFrog
Junior member
 
Join Date: May 1, 2010
Posts: 5,798
Pass-throughs; RII/NIJ, Strasburg Tests, over-penetration...

I didn't yet read all the topic posts so keep that in mind with my reply, .

I think the correct shooting sports/armed citizen term you mean is: over-pentration.
If a bullet or projectile punches completely though a subject(a living human being who is actively trying to kill you) then it is NOT good.
Over-penetration is a big problem but many US gunners & armed professionals(sworn LE, security officers, PIs, military forces, corrections, bail agents, etc) think in 2013, that the topic is highly over-rated.
I feel there is some merit to this but I also say that if you carry a loaded firearm in a crowded area or work in a court house, medical center, theme park, school or campus, jail/prison, or a ship-yacht-vessel(shipyard), then a frangible or "exotic" round may be a smart choice.
By frangible I mean a load like Glaser Safety Slug(Silver), MagSafe, DRT, TAP, etc.
R&D by the US dept of Justice(National Institute of Justice or NIJ), the FBI, the DoD/DARPA/military and other sources like the Strasburg goat tests of the early 1990s showed that some frangibles do very well & do not cause problems with over-penetration or ricochets.
The FBI's "Protocol" tests also helped show how a round or bullet performs with certain media(auto glass, wood, fiber, etc).

Frangibles are NOT perfect. Many firms & designs have major flaws(ExtremeShock USA, LeMas/RCBD, etc). My state does not allow the use of rounds like Glaser Safety Slugs, TAP, DRT, MagSafe, etc by law for armed security(G license holders).

I would well armed with a frangible but only for limited use & for times when I'd more than likely be at a CQB(close quarters range) and shoot directly into the subject's center torso or head.

ClydeFrog
www.shopcorbon.com www.drtammo.com www.hornady.com www.magsafeonline.com www.rcbd.net
ClydeFrog is offline  
Old April 17, 2013, 08:18 PM   #8
Brit
Senior Member
 
Join Date: January 29, 2005
Location: Orlando FL
Posts: 867
At one time, my go to magazine, was Mil Spec hardball. Going to that magazine is when penetration is wanted! Vehicles, dry wall, something you want to through!.

Now 147g Ranger T, not plus P. Both magazines.
Brit is offline  
Old April 17, 2013, 08:41 PM   #9
number 9
Member
 
Join Date: February 6, 2013
Posts: 40
Thanks for the replies. This is a work in process for me. I have read much on the subject and there is no definitive answer.

I am always looking for new answers to the age old problem of cause and effect. To get one you must accept the other.

Thanks, Leonard
number 9 is offline  
Old April 17, 2013, 09:04 PM   #10
Venom1956
Senior Member
 
Join Date: October 4, 2008
Location: WI
Posts: 3,107
If bullets dont punch thru things they arent much good in my book.
__________________
E-Shock rounds are engineered to expend maximum energy into soft targets, turning the density mass into an expanding rotational cone of NyTrilium matrix particles, causing neurological collapse to the central nervous system.- Yeah I can do that.
I guarantee you will know it if a bicyclist hits your house going 1000 mph.
Venom1956 is offline  
Old April 17, 2013, 09:28 PM   #11
ClydeFrog
Junior member
 
Join Date: May 1, 2010
Posts: 5,798
Thick-burgers...

Keep in mind too, that the US population has grown larger thicker & wider too in 2013.

In 1989, I entered the US Army & the ht/wt standards said 185lbs was the max limit for a soldier my size(72" or 6ft). Now in 2013, 185 is normal & considered the avg wt for 6'00".

New handgun rounds or LE calibers in general(5.56x45mm, 7.62x51mm, 6.8x40mm, .300 AAC Blackout, .338 Lapula, .458SOCOM, .40S&W, .357sig, 10mm, .45acp, .45GAP, etc) need to factor in the subject's frame weight width height etc.
I'd also advise using a frangible or special purpose load for a large caliber sidearm; .44magnum, .44spl, .41magnum, .45LC or Long Colt, .50AE, .440 Corbon, etc.
ClydeFrog is offline  
Old April 17, 2013, 10:14 PM   #12
Frank Ettin
Staff
 
Join Date: November 23, 2005
Location: California - San Francisco
Posts: 6,920
A few years ago I took a class taught by Louis Awerbuck. He set up targets we were to engage with "no-shoots" in various positions, including some arranged so that if one engaged a target from certain angles the bullet would also hit the "no-shoot." The drill was that we had to draw and engage a designated target while moving as necessary to avoid putting holes in the "no-shoot."

In another class I took taught by Louis, he had a device on which four "no-shoots" were mounted surrounding a target to be engaged. The device allowed him to, by pulling some ropes from behind the firing line, move the "no-shoots" and the target around and up and down in relation to each other. Again the drill was to draw and move as necessary to engage the target without putting holes in the "no-shoots."

Very interesting exercises.
__________________
"It is long been a principle of ours that one is no more armed because he has possession of a firearm than he is a musician because he owns a piano. There is no point in having a gun if you are not capable of using it skillfully." -- Jeff Cooper
Frank Ettin is offline  
Old April 18, 2013, 12:30 AM   #13
Ben Dover
Senior Member
 
Join Date: April 11, 2013
Location: High up in the Rocky Moun
Posts: 195
To avoid over penetration one needs do no more than use 115 grain JHP +P ammunition.
__________________
The soldier's pack is not so heavy a burden as the prisoner's chains. Dwight Eisenhower
Ben Dover is offline  
Old April 18, 2013, 11:12 AM   #14
Constantine
Senior Member
 
Join Date: December 5, 2010
Location: Miami, Florida
Posts: 5,235
What about Corbon DPX 95gr? lol
__________________
Sáncte Míchael Archángele, defénde nos in proélio, cóntra nequítiam et insídias diáboli ésto præsídium. Ímperet ílli Déus, súpplices deprecámur: tuque, prínceps milítiæ cæléstis, Sátanam aliósque spíritus malígnos, qui ad perditiónem animárum pervagántur in múndo, divína virtúte, in inférnum detrúde. Ámen
Constantine is offline  
Old April 18, 2013, 12:24 PM   #15
sfmedic
Senior Member
 
Join Date: December 2, 2012
Location: Currently Erbil, Iraq
Posts: 106
Ah i get it - I was just confused on your terminology

I carry with mag-safe frang

In the home environment it essential - and common sense that you know who is were in your house also

I do a lot of CQB training and this is the subject of constant what iffin. On the one hand you have some units that train as if all walls were ballistic walls and the other the tactics are as if the walls were paper. (im the latter)

walk through your house on a regular basis and not who sleeps were and were would the "no shoot" walls or wall sections be from different positions you may find yourself in during a home invasion. (at the very least your bed and your "hard room") and rearrange sleeping locations accordingly.

This subject is always germain to your home weapon selection. I would never use a AR or AK in the home. Hence mag-safes
sfmedic is offline  
Old April 18, 2013, 07:56 PM   #16
DoubleDeuce 1
Member
 
Join Date: February 21, 2013
Posts: 79
The "mm" in 9mm, means "might make it." I remember reading some information a very long time ago regarding the penetration of the 9mm, .40 cal and the .45 ACP. If I recall correctly, the 9mm penetrated the test medium to the minimum depth... only 68% of the time. The .40 cal was in the 80-90% range. The 45 ACP was a constant high 90's%.

Other things to consider would be wound channel generation. If you happen to find yourself in a critical incident and you had a choice of the two calibers, 9mm or 45 ACP... why choose the one caliber that performs minimally 68% of the time? 9mm just does not create the tissue damage a .45 ACP does. I have seen a lot of folks shot numerous times with 9mm rounds. Sure they bled some, but it was no sure thing they would cash in their chips or even stop the fight. The .40 cal was and is much better. The .45 ACP is tops. I have seen more one shot stops than the 9mm could have ever hoped for even in a controlled setting.

I know shot placement is critical for all calibers. If you are talking about handgun rounds, I'll take a .45 ACP for an auto pistol. If you are shooting something like an MP-5, and can just buzz saw through your adversary, that is a different story.

The concerns for over penetration can be over blown at times. Being aware of how your house is laid out is certainly critical, as is knowing what is potentially down range. Inside my own house, all that gets tossed out when it hits the fan. Outside and on the street those things are considered.

You cannot predict what the environment will be if and when something bad happens. Ball ammo has worked fine for me.

My two cents.
DoubleDeuce 1 is offline  
Old April 18, 2013, 08:19 PM   #17
Constantine
Senior Member
 
Join Date: December 5, 2010
Location: Miami, Florida
Posts: 5,235
Pass throughs and the 9mm

Ok.

Who only depends on one shot to do the job?

Also, I apologize. But I don't believe the bottom fraction of what you've said. All other tests I've ever seen, show the opposite of what you've stated.

Then shootability comes into play. Which is the easiest round to shoot and continue quick follow up shots?

Which round is capable of more firepower with just one magazine?



Gun fighting? Or shooting at an object one time vs another to justify why one picks a certain load?

Next thing I'm going to probably hear is the "Miami shoot out". Water under the bridge there too, it's been covered. I recommend the search option.
Constantine is offline  
Old April 18, 2013, 09:03 PM   #18
Frank Ettin
Staff
 
Join Date: November 23, 2005
Location: California - San Francisco
Posts: 6,920
Quote:
Originally Posted by DoubleDeuce 1
...Ball ammo has worked fine for me...
Really? So you've been in actual violent encounters in which ball ammunition performed satisfactorily and promptly neutralized a threat? Or do you really mean that you carry a defensive gun loaded with ball ammunition and you're satisfied with it even though you've never actually had to use it in self defense?

In any case, since it's pretty much the universal choice among U. S. police agencies, the "gold standard" in defensive handgun ammunition seems to be quality JHP ammunition.

Quote:
Originally Posted by DoubleDeuce 1
...The "mm" in 9mm, means "might make it." I remember reading some information a very long time ago regarding the penetration of the 9mm, .40 cal and the .45 ACP. If I recall correctly, the 9mm penetrated the test medium to the minimum depth... only 68% of the time. The .40 cal was in the 80-90% range. The 45 ACP was a constant high 90's%...
Please provide the source.

Quote:
Originally Posted by DoubleDeuce 1
...The .45 ACP is tops. I have seen more one shot stops than the 9mm could have ever hoped for even in a controlled setting....
Where? Under what circumstances?
__________________
"It is long been a principle of ours that one is no more armed because he has possession of a firearm than he is a musician because he owns a piano. There is no point in having a gun if you are not capable of using it skillfully." -- Jeff Cooper
Frank Ettin is offline  
Old April 18, 2013, 09:38 PM   #19
ClydeFrog
Junior member
 
Join Date: May 1, 2010
Posts: 5,798
"Buzz thru"?....

There are few times on a military spec op or covert op where a operator could just; "buzz thru" someone with a MP5 or a Uzi.
They need to use all the available rounds to fight off any threats or bad guys.
If I were a SEAL or in SAD or ISA or ACE and saw a operator burning through SMG magazines, I highly doubt the dude would go "down range" any time soon.
I'd suggest reading Rogue Warrior, Red Cell, First SEAL, or maybe One Perfect Op. They explain how real spec ops & weapons work.
John Plaster(US Army Reserve-retired) wrote a few non fiction books about the MAC-V-SOG or Special Operations Group(also called Studies & Observations Group, ). They offer a in-depth look at how real special ops work in places like SE Asia.
You can't go "Winchester" with small arms on every target.

CF
ClydeFrog is offline  
Old April 19, 2013, 12:22 AM   #20
DoubleDeuce 1
Member
 
Join Date: February 21, 2013
Posts: 79
Frank,
In answer to your questions... Yes I have and yes I do.

As for the source reference for the performance, I stated "if I recalled correctly." I don't think I am that far off if at all.

I speak from thirty-two years experience.
DoubleDeuce 1 is offline  
Old April 19, 2013, 12:35 AM   #21
Frank Ettin
Staff
 
Join Date: November 23, 2005
Location: California - San Francisco
Posts: 6,920
Quote:
Originally Posted by DoubleDeuce 1
In answer to your questions... Yes I have and yes I do.
Okay, we'll leave it at that.

Quote:
Originally Posted by DoubleDeuce 1
...As for the source reference for the performance, I stated "if I recalled correctly." I don't think I am that far off if at all....
But I don't recall seeing those numbers and suspect that your recollection might be flawed in some particulars.

I recall Marshall's "one shot stops" data for .45 ACP showing roughly 90% for JHP, but around 60% for FMJ. But those were not penetration figures. I haven't seen any penetration studies such as you've described.

In any even, absent some citation to a source I wouldn't be prepared to accept those figures.
__________________
"It is long been a principle of ours that one is no more armed because he has possession of a firearm than he is a musician because he owns a piano. There is no point in having a gun if you are not capable of using it skillfully." -- Jeff Cooper
Frank Ettin is offline  
Old April 19, 2013, 04:44 AM   #22
johnelmore
Senior Member
 
Join Date: April 6, 2013
Posts: 290
When I saw the title I thought this thread might be going down the "wrong trail" so let me make a few important points:

- There are quite a few calibers which will "pass through" besides the 9mm. The .45 is going to penetrate through walls and car doors just like the 9mm. It may not penetrate exactly the same, but it will penetrate with an entrance and exit. Its probably not a good idea to be behind the door when it makes its entrance and exit.

- All of the calibers should be considered lethal whether it be a .22 or a .45.

I believe this topic of 9mm vs other calibers has been debated into the ground and I have no additional information to add to that subject...
johnelmore is offline  
Old April 19, 2013, 11:45 AM   #23
number 9
Member
 
Join Date: February 6, 2013
Posts: 40
The reason I used 9mm in the title is because this is what is carried on a daily basis. The comparison of cals is not an issue for me as I have made my choice.


My intent with this post was to gather information and tips from others on the subject of pass throughs.

In rifle calibers the varmint projectiles seem to excel at dumping energy and material. There is much difference between 3000 fps and 1100 fps and I am certainly not an engineer although this seems possible.

Also in rifle cals there is the option of limited, expanding, and the super penetrating dangerous game rounds.

I personally would like to see components available for shallow penetration for personal use in congested environments . My reasoning behind this is that with proper training a threat could be neutralized with minimized collateral damage.
number 9 is offline  
Old April 19, 2013, 11:56 AM   #24
number 9
Member
 
Join Date: February 6, 2013
Posts: 40
Constatine I have loaded some of the dpx projectiles. They are manufactured by Barnes. I have not preformed any penetration tests with these but they do seem to be a viable source.
number 9 is offline  
Old April 19, 2013, 12:39 PM   #25
Constantine
Senior Member
 
Join Date: December 5, 2010
Location: Miami, Florida
Posts: 5,235
I wasn't really asking. lol I trust my life to Corbon DPX and Speer Gold Dots.

They're my favorites.
__________________
Sáncte Míchael Archángele, defénde nos in proélio, cóntra nequítiam et insídias diáboli ésto præsídium. Ímperet ílli Déus, súpplices deprecámur: tuque, prínceps milítiæ cæléstis, Sátanam aliósque spíritus malígnos, qui ad perditiónem animárum pervagántur in múndo, divína virtúte, in inférnum detrúde. Ámen
Constantine is offline  
Closed Thread

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 09:00 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
This site and contents, including all posts, Copyright © 1998-2014 S.W.A.T. Magazine
Copyright Complaints: Please direct DMCA Takedown Notices to the registered agent: thefiringline.com
Contact Us
Page generated in 0.13079 seconds with 9 queries