The Firing Line Forums

Go Back   The Firing Line Forums > The North Corral > Black Powder and Cowboy Action Shooting

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old February 22, 2009, 01:15 PM   #1
bprevolver
Senior Member
 
Join Date: November 23, 2006
Location: Oklahoma
Posts: 133
Replica Percussion Revolver Manufacturers

For several years I have been trying to find out if anyone knows any of the following manufacturer's logo or markings.

PR Usually on the butt of FIE brass frame revolvers.

COM Found on several revolvers. Only other markings are the proofs and "Made in Italy".

DOM Same marking as found on COM revolvers.

MOFRA This has been found on Patersons sold by Replica Arms.

Two elongated Diamonds with side points touching. Also found on Replica Arms.
bprevolver is offline  
Old February 22, 2009, 07:00 PM   #2
arcticap
Senior Member
 
Join Date: March 15, 2005
Location: Central Connecticut
Posts: 2,973
I try to gleen hints of information from several reference pages in order to try to speculate which outfit any initials or markings might represent.
These pages include:

Gunsmiths in Italy 1945-1980:

http://www.earmi.it/armi/database/armieri.htm

Tradenames and Brands of Guns and Gunsmakers:

http://www.earmi.it/armi/database/brand_m.htm

Marchi commerciali USA - Trade names of pistols and guns:

http://www.earmi.it/armi/database/marchiusa.htm

Codes from the National Crime and Information Center (NCIC) 2000 standard:

http://www.ncsconline.org/D_Tech/way...ype.asp?id=365

Assuming that the marks are Italian, my guess is that PR may represent either "PATRO di Palama Roberto - Verdello 1976" or "Pierino Ruschetta"

DOM shows up as "Dorman" on the NCIC list, but the information for Dorman's country of origin on the brands page is completely blank [ "Dorman - "].
So COM and DOM is still wide open for speculation. Just because NCIC assigns initials to a company doesn't mean that another individual or company couldn't have used the same initials.
For instance, one gunsmith's name ending with "M" that may correspond to COM is:

Cosimo Mezzolla - Sava (Taranto) 1969

However the origin of MOFRA seems to be very definitive on the Italian gunsmith page:

MOFRA di Mainardi A. - Brescia 1971

If there's a need to translate something on these pages from Italian to English, I use the free translation website at www.freetranslation.com
arcticap is offline  
Old March 2, 2009, 11:09 PM   #3
arcticap
Senior Member
 
Join Date: March 15, 2005
Location: Central Connecticut
Posts: 2,973
Another listing for MOFRA is in small case letters and states:

Mofra (Mononi Gino)

http://www.earmi.it/armi/database/armieri.htm
arcticap is offline  
Old September 15, 2010, 11:38 AM   #4
sebou
Senior Member
 
Join Date: March 2, 2010
Location: France
Posts: 108
hi all
BPrevovler this is what i found :

EIE :
hotgun was distrubuted by Excam Importers located in Hialeah, Florida. They have been out of buisness since around 1990. The owner was Tom Excam who built up the buisness importing and distributing mostly low quality inexpensive firearms. The only thing that I can tell you about your gun is that it is made in Italy by Faush Stefano but nothing else, I checked all my references and nothing on it came up

Read more: http://shotgunworld.com/bbs/viewtopi...#ixzz0yvhhgLU7


EXCAM
Previous importer and distributor located in Hialeah, FL, which went out of business late 1990. Excam distributed Dart, Erma, Tanarmi, Targa, and Warrior exclusively in the U.S. These trademarks will appear under Excam only in this book. All importation of Excam firearms ceased in 1990.
All Targa and Tanarmi pistols were manufactured in Gardone V.T., Italy. All Erma and Warrior pistols and rifles were manufactured in W. Germany. Senator O/U shotguns were manufactured by A. Zoli located in Brescia, Italy.


EIG :
Eig Cutlery US EIG Importer of weapons mfd. in
Italy, Japan, Spain, and
Germany
EIG Importers of small pistols and revolvers in Miami, Florida, c. 1967

TITAN MANUFACTURING CO (TMC),
FIREARMS IMPORT & EXPORT (FIP)
AND
EIG CUTLERY (EIG)
All three companies make the Titan. An F for “fire” for the safety switch appears near the end of the serial number. The F is not a part of the serial number, much like S for “safety” on various pistols (including BROWNING [BRO] and BAUER [BAU]) is not a part of the serial number.

voir pages 19 et 20 :
Pistolet TITAN CA. 22 short avec le logo EIG en coeur de cible
Pistolet TITAN-MOD .380 CAL FIE - MIAMI, FL
Derringer EIG


FIREARMS IMPORT & EXPORT (FIP)
Firearms Import & Export manufactures a 2-shot, .38-caliber derringer model D38 that typically has a serial number on the side of the frame and another on the bottom of the barrel. They are often miscoded as DER or DEH because the FIE is not easily read. 19

page 21 :
EIG CUTLERY (EIG)
EIG makes a four-shot, 22-caliber derringer. It is frequently miscoded as STD because “Use std (standard) vel. ctg.” appears on the barrel. The proper type code on this gun is PX.
20

COM : Contrini Officine Meccaniche di Contrini Giovanni, Gardone VT, via XXIV aprile
Contrini Giovanni Gardone VT 1973

or

May be that's Cominazzo ( not the gunsmithing of XVIIème ) but, two of his little, little,little ..... sons : O. & M. Cominazzo. I have no idea of the son's nick name O & M.

DOM : I have nothing, but if someone have a pic, please, post it.
But my search found this : DOM = DORMAN
or Domino Italia.

2 elongaced diamonds:
Mofra (Mononi Gino)-----------None
MOFRA di Mainardi A.----------Brescia 1971
MOFRA This has been found on Patersons sold by Replica Arms. Two longcated Diamonds with side points touching. Also found on Replica Arms.
MOFRA was bought by Euromanufacture around 1980.

Hubertus : Manufacturer of barrel as Neumann, Orion or Hege.
HUBERTUS Tradename of Inman, Meffert Gewehrfabrik, Suhl, ms, Germany on sporting arms.
Hubertus EM HUB

Now, i need help to find this manufacturer :
IAF
I saw it on 1851 (1971) with Neumann logo and german proof marks, with "made in Italy" stamp on the barel :




The proof house is the city called ULM
Eagle with L means the standard test able to fire with non solid bullet
But, over the gripps, the logo with IAF and a view of two barel's shotgun.
Is any one saw this logo or manufacturer ?
Thanks a lot
Seb
sebou is offline  
Old September 16, 2010, 07:50 AM   #5
Rusty.it
Member
 
Join Date: May 29, 2007
Posts: 50
Quote:
The proof house is the city called ULM
Eagle with L means the standard test able to fire with non solid bullet
I have seen many junk navy replica from the '70 with cilinder drilled for caliber like 9mm flobert, back in that years the arms in small rimfire caliber was of free selling without any licence, they meet good market, anybody can buy one and play plinking figuring to be in a spagetti western
http://www.ruag.co.uk/?p=8_4&t=Ammun...n%20Gun&menu=9
Ball 9 mm


Now this pistol are licensed arms here, exactly like a desert eagle in .50AE
Many old arm shop have safe full of this junk pieces and they are impossible to sell even a few euro, are "common arms" for Italian law, and you can have a maximum of 3 "common arms" so you understend that anyone buy 3 more modern arms instead of old junks, this close completely the market
Rusty
Rusty.it is offline  
Old September 16, 2010, 08:57 AM   #6
madcratebuilder
Senior Member
 
Join Date: November 2, 2007
Location: Northern Orygun
Posts: 4,868
Excellent research sebou, thanks.

DOM=Dorman. This comes up on on-line searches because Dorman makes tens of thousands of automotive parts and DOM is a common part number prefix.
madcratebuilder is offline  
Old September 16, 2010, 12:03 PM   #7
sebou
Senior Member
 
Join Date: March 2, 2010
Location: France
Posts: 108
Hello all

Rusty.it
Yes, you are true, in France the law put down 12 at 6 handguns under license. There is a class system, first class at the third includes weapons of war (Colt M1911, P08 luger ...) and accessories (bayonets, grenades, gas masks ...), the 4th is weapon Poingt defense (Colt 357, S & W Cal 44), the fifth hunting weapon, the 6th & 7th are the weapons of leisure and knives, the 8th are the ancient arms (anterior to the system 1875, as black powder). The SAA 1883 is in 4th class. The 6th, 7th and 8th are freely available.
Then it's a serious problem because many weapons are not declared from the time it is forbidden to keep more than 6. But Black Powder are in free sell without authorization. in this condition, the market isn't closed is and you could have 50 BP.

madcratebuilder

Thx a lot, and i just found the manufacturer of the revolver, with the logo as double barel shot gun; That is :
Mavi di Salvinelli IT MVI maybe bought by ASM at the start of 1970.

DOM, yes, on the web i found DORMAN as automtiv parts, but i found it also on earm.it. But i will continue to search to be sure that or not.

Seb
sebou is offline  
Old September 17, 2010, 08:26 AM   #8
Rusty.it
Member
 
Join Date: May 29, 2007
Posts: 50
Sebou, at this moment (because laws can change like the wind in a spring morning) every arms licence in italy, self defence, sport, hunt, allow you to buy 3 "common arms" 6 "sports arms" 8 "antique, illimitated hunting arms"
There is a mixed techincal-political commission that examine every new firearms imported or produced and list it in a one of this group.
For us "common arms" are all the pistol with standard sight used for self defence, the sport are fron .22 to all, is enought the importer or producer ask to commission to set like sport arms, so you can have a uberti colt '73 common and a uberti '73 sport changing only a screw!
The lucky thing is that all military rifle bolt action and many semiauto like ar15 zastava m76, ak 47, dragunov ecc are hunting rifle, is request only the shell longer 40mm and/or the caliber bigger than 5,56mm
Only caliber forbidden to civilian is .50BMG and 9mm luger parabellum
Rusty
Rusty.it is offline  
Old September 19, 2010, 11:56 AM   #9
bullet bob
Junior Member
 
Join Date: June 19, 2010
Location: AL
Posts: 1
Manufacturer of this New Army 1858?

Attached are some photos of my Navy Arms, 44cal, Remington New Army 1858 replica with factory target sights I purchased this pistol in 1979. I would very much like to know which Italian arms company manufactured the gun for Navy Arms.

The gun’s serial number is 032251 and is stamped on the back strap at the bottom of the grip. The top of the barrel is stamped with “Navy Arms Co. Ridgefield N.J.”. The gun is stamped with Italian proof marks which seem to indicate the gun was made(?) in 1978 [AD]. There is also a maker’s mark(?) that I don’t recognize (enclosed in a circle).

A local “expert’s” opinion was that the gun was made in the USA (assembled?) for the Navy Arms Company in the 1970s by Replica Arms Company in Palmer, Massachusetts ( at that time, a division of Navy Arms).

Could the gun have been fitted and assembled in the USA using Italian made parts? If so which Italian manufacturer made the parts?

Thank you very much for your help in identifying the gun’s manufacturer!
Attached Images
File Type: jpg IMG_1316.jpg (237.5 KB, 197 views)
File Type: jpg IMG_1311.jpg (240.1 KB, 138 views)
File Type: jpg IMG_1323.jpg (254.5 KB, 121 views)
bullet bob is offline  
Old September 19, 2010, 12:21 PM   #10
Doc Hoy
Senior Member
 
Join Date: October 24, 2008
Location: Chesapeake, VA
Posts: 4,562
Guys....

....Do I remember correctly from some previous conversations that Navy Arms got some of their replica revolvers from Armi San Paolo?
__________________
Doc

My reading of history convinces me that most bad government results from too much government. Thomas Jefferson
Doc Hoy is offline  
Old September 19, 2010, 12:22 PM   #11
Hawg
Senior Member
 
Join Date: September 8, 2007
Location: Mississippi
Posts: 11,686
Makers mark is Navy Arms logo. Or maybe not NA logo but is on box.


Last edited by Hawg; September 19, 2010 at 12:30 PM.
Hawg is offline  
Old September 20, 2010, 09:30 AM   #12
madcratebuilder
Senior Member
 
Join Date: November 2, 2007
Location: Northern Orygun
Posts: 4,868
Quote:
Originally Posted by boss haggen
Makers mark is Navy Arms logo. Or maybe not NA logo but is on box.
I think you got it! Cool old box, that logo is a new one on me. Thought it was Palmetto when I first looked.


Quote:
Originally Posted by bob
A local “expert’s” opinion was that the gun was made in the USA (assembled?) for the Navy Arms Company in the 1970s by Replica Arms Company in Palmer, Massachusetts ( at that time, a division of Navy Arms).
Navy Arms did buy out Replica Arms. The revolver was "made in Italy". If it was assembled in the USA it was as a "kit gun".
madcratebuilder is offline  
Old September 20, 2010, 02:09 PM   #13
mykeal
Senior Member
 
Join Date: October 8, 2006
Location: Northern Michigan
Posts: 2,757
My 1851 Navy came in the same box:


It was made in Italy by Pietta; it has an FAP stamp on the bottom of the barrel assembly just forward of the trigger guard; this is an old Pietta logo. The gun was made in 1977. Sorry about the quality of the picture.
mykeal is offline  
Old September 21, 2010, 10:11 AM   #14
sebou
Senior Member
 
Join Date: March 2, 2010
Location: France
Posts: 108
Hello all
Navy arms is the importer n1 in USA. The Italian producers are Pietta , Uberti , Pedersoli , Armi Sport et Euroarms ( i have saw their models from collectors and friends).

I just need some precision about Navy Arms and maybe you should help me :
I saw on several BP the mark " Navy Arms co Ridgefield N.J" and some other with the mark : "Navy Arms Co inc Bogota N.A USA".
Should that is the same firme ?
Thx
Seb
sebou is offline  
Old September 21, 2010, 10:42 AM   #15
bprevolver
Senior Member
 
Join Date: November 23, 2006
Location: Oklahoma
Posts: 133
Navy Arms/Replica Arms Transition

The logo, RA in circle over a gun sight is the Replica Arms Logo. When Navy Arms bought out Replica Arms they did not simply eliminate Replica Arms from existence, but changed it to Navy Arms over a period of time. This was to establish Replica Arms and Navy Arms as one and the same. Replica Arms was the chief competitor of Navy Arms at this time.

The first marking change was “REPLICA ARMS RIDGEFIELD NJ” on the barrel. After a short period this was changed to “NAVY ARMS RIDGEFIELD NJ” on the barrel but retaining the Replica Arms Logo somewhere on the gun, the frame, under the loading lever, etc. Replica Arms first used Armi San Marco as its manufacturer, and new info also indicates that Palmetto was also very active in the early 1960’s as well. Navy Arms used Uberti in the beginning for the 1851 Navy, Leech & Rigdon, Remington New Model Army, and the Griswold & Gunnison. Replica Arms was the first company to sell the 1847 Walker, the Dragoons, the Baby Dragoons, and the Pocket Models. These were made by Armi San Marco and possibly by Palmetto.

The 1860 Army revolvers were only produced and manufactured by Centaure of Belgium, at this time, and imported by Mars Equipment Co. and distributed by Centennial. (visit http://www.1960nma.org ). It was not until the later part of the 1960’s that Navy Arms added the 1860 Army made by Pietta to their offerings. It was not until the early 1970’s that Navy Arms offered the large frame revolvers after Uberti started producing the parts for these revolvers to Colt. It was as this time that Uberti decided to enter the market with a complete live of replica percussion revolvers. Exact time that each of these events took place is impossible to know because there are no surviving records found at this time.

The SA Logo found on the Navy Arms boxes before the merging of Navy Arms and Replica Arms is the old Service Armament originally started by Val Forgett in the late 1950’s-early 1960’s.
bprevolver is offline  
Old September 21, 2010, 07:19 PM   #16
arcticap
Senior Member
 
Join Date: March 15, 2005
Location: Central Connecticut
Posts: 2,973
Quote:
Originally Posted by sebou
I saw on several BP the mark " Navy Arms co Ridgefield N.J" and some other with the mark : "Navy Arms Co inc Bogota N.A USA".
Should that is the same firme ?
I had never heard of the Bogota marking before but after looking up Bogota, New Jersey I found that it's only about 4 miles or 10 minutes away from Ridgefield, New Jersey. They must have moved from Bogota to Ridgefield.
arcticap is offline  
Old September 22, 2010, 04:41 AM   #17
sebou
Senior Member
 
Join Date: March 2, 2010
Location: France
Posts: 108
HI
Thanks a lot BP revolver for your notification about Replica arms & Navy arms link story.
Here a pic from a 1858 remington made by Uberti with the marker from Navy Arms Bogota...


However, should i guess right that's the Navy arms co & the arms arms ridgefield are the same firm ?

Seb
sebou is offline  
Old September 23, 2010, 04:12 AM   #18
arcticap
Senior Member
 
Join Date: March 15, 2005
Location: Central Connecticut
Posts: 2,973
"You bet your sweet bippy!"

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rowan_%...#39;s_Laugh-In
arcticap is offline  
Old September 23, 2010, 07:53 AM   #19
sebou
Senior Member
 
Join Date: March 2, 2010
Location: France
Posts: 108
"Here Comes The Judge" redirects here. For the 1968 song

What the link with our thread ?
I don't understand why...
But it's an interesting time of tv show.
sebou is offline  
Old September 24, 2010, 12:52 AM   #20
arcticap
Senior Member
 
Join Date: March 15, 2005
Location: Central Connecticut
Posts: 2,973
Quote:
Originally Posted by sebou
What the link with our thread ?
The link is there because the TV show invented the phrase "You bet your bippy" and it was a funny show at the time.

It's also funny to think that there could have been 2 completely different Navy Arms companies in the world only 4 miles apart from each other. Agree?

Maybe Navy Arms just moved down the road because they needed a larger building so they bought some property instead of leasing it and paying rent.
I visited their Ridgefield store once. It consisted of a gun shop and a warehouse operation downstairs and in the back. Even though it wasn't a huge place, it served them well for many years.

Last edited by arcticap; September 24, 2010 at 01:00 AM.
arcticap is offline  
Old September 24, 2010, 03:44 AM   #21
sebou
Senior Member
 
Join Date: March 2, 2010
Location: France
Posts: 108
ok arcticap...
I understood,
well, i didn't really know if they are 2 firms, and i think that's certainly only one. Then, their marks has may changed time after time as "Navy Arms Co", to "Navy Arms Co bogota" and finaly "Navy Arms Co Ridgefield N.J"
When i'm seeking on NCIC, i only see one firm.
According to BP revovler's notification (
Quote:
The first marking change was “REPLICA ARMS RIDGEFIELD NJ” on the barrel. After a short period this was changed to “NAVY ARMS RIDGEFIELD NJ” on the barrel but retaining the Replica Arms Logo somewhere on the gun
) there is no mention about "Navy Arms Co" (alone only) or "Navy Arms Co Bogota". That's the reason for the question about those firms (or only one) is still open.

Friendly,
Seb
sebou is offline  
Old October 2, 2010, 10:18 AM   #22
sebou
Senior Member
 
Join Date: March 2, 2010
Location: France
Posts: 108
Hello Gents,
Many of us are thinking "PR" means Pierino Ruschetta.
I have seen on other Italian forum, Ruschetta made some Shotguns and it's stamped "PR" nearly the "break barrel" (i hope you understand me...).
Then, it's appears evidence that's the Ruschetta Pierino marks.
But, i didn't found any informations about the start date of this firm.
I had search on "earmit", "NCIC" ect...
I just can tell that's the more oldest revolvers i have seen are :
PR 1973
EIE PR 1972
FIE PR 1971

Then, it would be great that someone could find the date of start of this firm to be able to affirm that "PR" mean Pierino Ruschetta.
Thanks.
seb
sebou is offline  
Old October 7, 2010, 02:07 PM   #23
sebou
Senior Member
 
Join Date: March 2, 2010
Location: France
Posts: 108
Hi
I'm coming back soon here, just to tell you, i just bought a 1851 (.44 !!!) made by D.O.M and when it comes at home, i will take and put some pics here.
Other thing, who Know "KONIG", have only one pic from Rogers & Spencer with this marks :


One more thing Who know what does mean "GU" stamped over the Uberti replica sells by Navy Arms ?
this pic from Remington model

This pic from Colt looks like 1851 model

Umberto Gitti ?
Uberti Gregorelli ?
Guillio Uberti ?
Or someone else ?!?
Thanks for help,

Friendly,
Seb
sebou is offline  
Old October 7, 2010, 03:25 PM   #24
Fingers McGee
Senior Member
 
Join Date: March 19, 2008
Location: Missouri
Posts: 1,849
Sebu,

Here's Dr Davis' (bprevolver) reply on GU marked guns from the Replica Percussion Revolver Collectors forum: http://blackpowdersmoke.com/revolver...php?topic=40.0

Quote:
Originally Posted by author=drjldavis link=topic=40.msg116#msg116 date=1280252180
The Navy Arms with the “GU” initials are Very, Very, Very collectable. The “GU” stands for Gregorelli and Uberti. Gregorelli made the steel parts and Uberti assembled the revolvers. On the 1851 Navy, the first revolver to be marketed, the “GU” will be found into the 5000 serial number range. The highest number in the RPRCA collection is 5080. The “GU” can also be found on the first Griswold & Gunnison, Leech & Rigdon, Remington New Model Army and New Model Navy.

On the Griswold & Gunnison and Leech & Rigdon the “GU” appears on the right side of the barrel flat the same as on the 1851 Navy. NAVY ARMS is on top of the barrel and on left side of frame. Our Leech & Rigdon #6546 does not have the NAVY ARMS on the left side of the frame but only on the top of the barrel.

On the Remington New Model revolvers the “GU” is located on the bottom of the barrel under the loading lever. These revolvers will also have the Navy Arms Bogota, NJ address.

The Navy Arms replica revolvers have been collectable almost from the beginning. Since Navy Arms is no longer in the revolver import business these guns will definitely become harder to find and much more expensive. Also, keep an eye out for the Navy Arms Powder Flask. These are Very rare. I “stole” one of these in a cased set with a Leech & Rigdon “GU” initialed revolver on Gun Broker. I was the only bidder at $350 starting, No Reserve auction.
FM
__________________
Fingers (Show Me MO smoke) McGee - AKA Man of Many Colts - Alter ego of Diabolical Ken; SASS Regulator 28564-L-TG; Rangemaster and stage writer extraordinaire; Frontiersman, Pistoleer, NRA Endowment Life, NMLRA, SAF, CCRKBA, STORM 327, SV115; Charter member, Central Ozarks Western Shooters
Cynic: A blackguard whose faulty vision see things as they are, not as they should be. Ambrose Bierce

Last edited by Fingers McGee; October 7, 2010 at 03:37 PM.
Fingers McGee is offline  
Old October 8, 2010, 02:04 AM   #25
Bootsie
Member
 
Join Date: April 30, 2007
Location: Hofheim/Germany
Posts: 88
Sebou: regarding the "KONIG" mark on the R&S barrel that should actually be KÖNIG.
König was (might still be around) a barrel maker in Germany. They offered exchange barrels made of famous Krupp steel for the demanding bulls eye shooters. This included barrels for Italian R&S and Remingtons C&B revolvers. If memory serves it was ASP/Euroarms who launched the first Rogers & Spencer during the early 1980s and I had to have one. But was not happy with the factory barrel. So, I had König install one of their accuracy barrels into my R&S. She came back proof tested with a load recommendation, target and new front sight adjusted for that load.
In line with German proof testing regulations the new barrel was marked KÖNIG.
Very accurate pistol.
Bootsie
Bootsie is offline  
Reply

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 05:43 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
This site and contents, including all posts, Copyright © 1998-2014 S.W.A.T. Magazine
Copyright Complaints: Please direct DMCA Takedown Notices to the registered agent: thefiringline.com
Contact Us
Page generated in 0.15177 seconds with 10 queries