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Old April 17, 2013, 10:11 AM   #26
Ruger480
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Don't overlook the .480 Ruger either, it's a beast and only slightly slower than a 475 Linebaugh. Bigger and heavier bullets too, which is always a good thing. Biggest downside is that of the three, ammo is the most scarce for the 480 Ruger, meaning you'd better be okay with ordering ammo online.
What this guy said.
However, you mentioned that you'd like to start reloading. Which is another reason to look at the .480.
If your dead set on picking one of the calibers you named, my vote goes to the 454 by way of the old adage "it's better to have it and not need it than need it and not have it".
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Old April 17, 2013, 10:33 AM   #27
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Odds of a bear attack...? Small of course. The lightning comparison isn't real good since I have been struck by lightning once and almost (within 50 feet impacts) on a couple occasions. A really bad lightning storms scares me to death if I am out in the woods or in fields and exposed.

Fake bear charges also scare me to death. It has happened. Never been attacked.
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Old April 17, 2013, 10:34 AM   #28
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Heavier bullets = better penetration. It is well proven that exceeding 1200-1300fps with hardcast bullets does NOT yield greater penetration. Only greater recoil and muzzle blast. So if the .44Mag can drive 330's and 355's to over 1200fps safely, all the .454 is going to gain you is range.....and recoil.....and muzzle blast.
I would beg to differ based on this excerpt from Rathcoombes study:

Let's make a practical comparison of extremes. Consider a .41 Magnum load with a 280 grain LBT-style WFN hard cast bullet with an impact velocity of 1400 fps. Now, comprare this load with a .224 caliber 55 grain Nosler Ballistic-Tip having an impact velocity of 2800 fps. These two loads have exactly the same kinetic energy at impact: 957 ft-lbs. However, their respective terminal behaviors are very different. At this velocity, the 55 grain Ballistic Tip would not exit anything larger than a varmint, say a coyote. The .41 Magnum load will easily break both shoulders on an elk and exit. Between these two loads, the .224 Ballistic Tip would be the better performer on smaller game (or human targets), but I am confident that the advocacy for its use on game such as elk and bear would be very much in the minority, and rightly so. It would definitely deliver more energy to the target, but its effectiveness would suffer from inadequate penetration. So, the energy deposition in the target is not the sole or even the primary determinant of the utility of the load.

If you are so inclined and have a LOT of free time you can read it all here
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Old April 17, 2013, 10:48 AM   #29
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You're comparing apples to Volkswagens and I'm not sure how your statement conflicts with mine anyway. My statement was within the narrow context of big bore handguns, hard cast bullets and handgun velocities.
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Old April 17, 2013, 11:07 AM   #30
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I love big bore revolvers. My friends think I'm nuts when I shoot them. Most of them shoot my big boomers once and call me crazy. And these are very seasoned shooters.

I have a 44 Mag Redhawk, 454 Casull SRH, and a 8 inch X-frame in 460 S&W Mag. The 454 Casull is by far the most brutal of them all. I hand load all my rounds. The starting load of H110 for 454 with a 240 grain XTP Mag is more brutal than a higher end 300 grain XTP Mag in the 460.!

Shot placement is everything. .44 Mag has taken Polar bears and elephants. So the .44 Mag is no slouch. If I could only have one magnum revolver, it would be a .44 Mag. It is so versatile.

You can not go wrong with any of them. But, .44 Mag at 300+ grains at 1200-1300 is more than adequate.

I hunt with my 454 SRH but I use downloaded charges. My .44 mag is a 4.20 inch barrel. I like the 7.5 inch site radius better of the SRH. I jus got such a screaming deal on the Casull it was hard to pass up.
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Old April 17, 2013, 11:43 AM   #31
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You're comparing apples to Volkswagens and I'm not sure how your statement conflicts with mine anyway. My statement was within the narrow context of big bore handguns, hard cast bullets and handgun velocities
Sorry. I didn't pay close enough attention to your statement. You are correct about the recoil and muzzle blast. I had understood your post to compare differing weights as well as calibers.
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Old April 17, 2013, 11:45 AM   #32
Ought6
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Clicking the action??????????

I've covered this it seems 100 times.

The only times the encounters make the headlines is when blood is drawn on either party. I've had at least 5 confrontations stopped with either firing in the air or drawing my handgun and clicking the action. I know of at least 20 more that have done the same in my area. I agree on pepper spray being used as a secondary measure. Have I tested that crap in a slight breeze???? Yes !!! I think the name "udap!" is really a foreign cuss word that comes out when that stuff comes back in your face . Relying on mother nature for the perfect conditions and your threat to cooperate and please stand downwind, is not in my repertoire. No, my first reaction is... "hand on trusty Redhawk".
___

I can understand how a shot over the head of, in front of, between the legs of a bear MIGHT scare it away but just can't see how drawing the gun and "clicking the action" is going to act as any kind of deterrent for bear, wolf, coyote, goldfish, hamster, stuffed animal or predator of any kind that simply has no idea what a gun is. I can see how this may deter a human predator, but a wild animal, get SERIOUS______________
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Old April 17, 2013, 12:03 PM   #33
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Hunting with a handgun is one thing....and that is where you probably want a 6" - 7.5" - or even an 8 3/8" barrel.

Reacting to a close encounter from a Grizzly / is when you need something quick and effective....and follow up shots are going to be critical. While charges are rare...they happen most when you're in dense brush / and the Grizzly being near sighted didn't see or hear you coming - and is startled when you come upon them, can't figure out what you are so they charge !

I've only had to kill one Grizzly in all my years in Northwestern Montana...and he was an old lame bear...but he charged from about 30 yards...and 2 of us, put him down with a .30-06 and a .30-40 Krag. We were prepared when he charged, rifles were up, but he didn't go down hard until at least 4 rounds hit him - and we put 4 or 5 more in him, just in case - and then turned the carcass over to fish and game the next day.

An encounter like that - is what you might have to face in Grizzly country ...so in my opinion, you're going to want a 4" barrel...and be able to make at least 4 or 5 follow up shots, on target, inside of 5 seconds at the most. The more recoil your gun has - the harder it will be to bring that gun down for a 3rd or 4th shot....and its not just strength, its practice. You will not have a lot of time.

Backpacking or hiking...a shoulder holster can get in the way ...but so can a belt scabbard type holster. Weather ( rain, snow) affect what outer coats you wear....size of pack affects whether you can use a shoulder holster..on horseback, you can carry the gun in a scabbard on your saddle...or anything in between. I don't think you'll find one rig is going to work for every scenario. Most of the time, I carried a 4" model 29 S&W ...and I had both an outside waist band scabbard style holster..that I wore on day hikes, around my camp, etc....I wore a shoulder holster when I was fly fishing and wading in creeks or lakes...when I had a heavy pack on - I tried a lot of rigs on my pack straps, accross my chest, etc...and nothing was very comfortable.

These days, I have a 3" model 629 S&W that is ported - so it helps reduce the muzzle flip. Its an RSR gun / their Trail Boss model ...and I carry it if I know I'm in Grizzly country. If I'm not in Grizzly country - I carry a model 686 S&W 4" in .357 Mag.

I've used Kramer Leather holsters for a long time...and I like them a lot.
----------
If I wanted to hunt with a handgun ...then my whole awareness is different / a longer barrel is not a problem - but I'd probably have a rifle as well. But big game hunting season - weather is more consistent - at least in Montana ...so its easier to establish your rig and how you'll carry it. Its not like hiking in shorts and a T shirt.
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Old April 17, 2013, 12:20 PM   #34
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With all due respect, ought 6, you must not fully understand the capacity of some animal brains. Why do humans know what the clicking of an action entails? Because through cognitive process and intuition, they have LEARNED what that sound means. An animal, especially one with the capacity of a grizz, has the ability to learn as well. Google "dinner bell theory". On the other hand, if they haven't learned, an unfamiliar gesture accompanied by the strange click, coupled with dominant body language, is going to make them think twice. What do you do when you are confronted with something potentially dangerous and unfamiliar to you? I'm sure you aren't going to be over zealous about it. It's really a mental game. Many of the attacks you read about that ended in injury or fatality involved panicking, submissive body language, being alone, fleeing. Body language and mentality are just as important as a gun.
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Old April 17, 2013, 12:36 PM   #35
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I think the 5.5" .44 RH is going to be my choice, if I even get to those rounds. I'm hoping ill have the shotgun available first. My main concerns initially involved the differences in effectiveness, and i wanted opinions on issues carrying in rough terrain. i am seeing that good placement and plenty of practice is most important, and the .454, especially at 7.5" is unnecessary for now. ill keep it in mind for the future, as it seems like an enjoyable luxury, or something to show off at least. Looks like there are quite a few holsters I'm going to be sorting through.
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Old April 17, 2013, 01:26 PM   #36
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Carrying in rough terrain - say with a lot of windfalls or accross melting snow fields, or loose shale rock...or steep ...or brushy...or really wet like in alders....or some of all of the above - all make everything more difficult.

Weight and position of the gun ...are even more critical ...whenever you have adverse conditions or terrain...but I think your critical issue is whether you're on horseback, or on foot....and if on foot..what are you carrying. If you just have a knapsack ...for a day trip with survival gear...every carry option is pretty easy - and most anything will work fine. If you have a heavy backpack ...it gets way more difficult in tough terrain.

In real wet conditions - or heavy wet snow / you may even want some kind of a flap holster / or a strap securing the gun in the holster - especially if you may be falling a little.

Modern outerwear ....makes things a little easier than it was 40 yrs ago / when we wore a lot of wool in winter hunting / rain slickers when it rained ....and you can get your outer garmets oversized to make carrying easier - and they breathe better and wick moisture away from your body better. If you're working real hard...and sweating hard...I still don't want a shoulder holster in my armpit...
------------
Do some day hikes in your local area....some in rough terrain / some on wet days...and wear a shoulder holster with a 4" or a 6" gun...or whatever you have / it'll teach you a lot very quickly. Carry an extra belt holster...and wear it for a few hours.../ sometimes a holster on your belt is just in the way of everything...especially if your pack has a waist belt / or maybe you can fit the holster on the packs waist belt...

A 4" . 44 mag ....probably weighs, loaded, at least 4 lbs.../ in a 6" add at least another 8 oz.../ 4 lbs plus, after 6 or 8 hours in the woods ...is a lot...
( and if you're dragging along a heavy shotgun or a rifle....) ....man you're dragging around a lot of weight....
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Old April 17, 2013, 02:06 PM   #37
Ought6
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More "Clicking"

With all due respect, ought 6, you must not fully understand the capacity of some animal brains. Why do humans know what the clicking of an action entails? Because through cognitive process and intuition, they have LEARNED what that sound means. An animal, especially one with the capacity of a grizz, has the ability to learn as well. Google "dinner bell theory". On the other hand, if they haven't learned, an unfamiliar gesture accompanied by the strange click, coupled with dominant body language, is going to make them think twice. What do you do when you are confronted with something potentially dangerous and unfamiliar to you? I'm sure you aren't going to be over zealous about it. It's really a mental game. Many of the attacks you read about that ended in injury or fatality involved panicking, submissive body language, being alone, fleeing. Body language and mentality are just as important as a gun.

Nelson77270, with due respect back to you I still don't, and never will see how "clicking the action" will deter a ****** off bear, or whatever. You must assume that the predator/attacker in question has put 2 and 2 together regarding the "clicking" sound and being shot/shot at. This is a chance with a bear, or whatever it may be that I am not willing to take. If this theory works just carry an empty gun and "click the action" for protection.
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Old April 17, 2013, 02:20 PM   #38
newfrontier45
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I surely wouldn't depend on "clicking the action" to deter anything, man or beast. By the time the action clicks, the decision to fire a shot should've already been made.
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Old April 17, 2013, 02:21 PM   #39
nelson77270
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I am merely explaining that to you, how that is possible. I am certainly not saying it is going to deter every bear or that you should carry empty. Regardless, this is pointless.

BigJimP:

I won't be carrying any heavy packs myself, probably nothing at all. All major gear will be in pack saddles and saddlebags. The shotgun will be in a saddle scabbard. I'm not counting on accessing that and getting off several shots in a surprise situation if mounted though, which is why I'll have a revolver. Both hip and shoulder areas will be open, and most of the sweating will be done by the horse. Ideally, I would find a rig that would allow me to switch between shoulder and hip, even if it is two different belts.
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Old April 17, 2013, 02:35 PM   #40
Ought6
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nelson77270, I agree

nelson77270, I agree, it is pointless. Just 2 guys expressing their opinions on a topic. Best to move on and we'll meet again along the road on another post.

Take care!
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Old April 17, 2013, 08:05 PM   #41
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I can understand how a shot over the head of, in front of, between the legs of a bear MIGHT scare it away but just can't see how drawing the gun and "clicking the action" is going to act as any kind of deterrent for bear, wolf, coyote, goldfish, hamster, stuffed animal or predator of any kind that simply has no idea what a gun is. I can see how this may deter a human predator, but a wild animal, get
Well, I had a 2 minute standoff with a big black bear on the top of Keystone Mt near Yaak Montana while hunting. He was in the middle of the trail 30 ft away staring right at me. I yelled at him for a while to move but he would not budge. As soon as I raised my gun and cocked the action he took off.

Animals that have been hunted do know the sound a firearm makes before ignition. Maybe not the "stuffed animals" that you deal with, but the ones in the real world do. Maybe you should get out more and quit practicing on play toys.
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Old April 17, 2013, 08:37 PM   #42
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Whatever works for you is what I say. I would prefer not to shoot a bear just because I'm nervous.
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Old April 18, 2013, 12:18 AM   #43
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Heavier bullets = better penetration. It is well proven that exceeding 1200-1300fps with hardcast bullets does NOT yield greater penetration. Only greater recoil and muzzle blast. So if the .44Mag can drive 330's and 355's to over 1200fps safely, all the .454 is going to gain you is range.....andrecoil.....and muzzle blast.
Maybe I'm wrong but here is my take.

A 44 mag with 300ish grain bullets at 1200 fps compared to a 454 with 300ish grain bullets at 1500 fps. My thinking is that the 1500fps bullet will get more penetration than the 1200 fps bullet. It is a full 25% faster. I realize that will not equate to 25% more penetration, but it should be significantly more.

If this is not true then I should be able to load my 44 mag to 44 special velocities and get similar penetration.

How old is your testing, and did it test to 1500 fps? Or was this a study on cast bullets in 45 colt and 44 mag at 1200 fps?

I am curious to hear the answers to my questions, but I think it will help the OP decide. ( he should be fully informed before deciding).
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Old April 18, 2013, 09:09 AM   #44
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I don't think so..............

Well, I had a 2 minute standoff with a big black bear on the top of Keystone Mt near Yaak Montana while hunting. He was in the middle of the trail 30 ft away staring right at me. I yelled at him for a while to move but he would not budge. As soon as I raised my gun and cocked the action he took off.

Animals that have been hunted do know the sound a firearm makes before ignition. Maybe not the "stuffed animals" that you deal with, but the ones in the real world do. Maybe you should get out more and quit practicing on play toys.

That is a BIG maybe, provided they are even close enough to hear the sound before ignition and it would take repeated times for them to even realize a gun was about to go off. Only my opinion but it's not going to happen and if you think it will and are willing to take the chance that they know what the sound of a "clicking action" is leading up to being shot you are seriously misguided.
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Old April 18, 2013, 09:53 AM   #45
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I don't think so..............
Well it did happened to me, and... I've had a bear run just by removing my gun from its holster.

I don't think you were there? Maybe hiding behind a tree?
You can call me a liar all you want, that is your prerogative, but I'm not wasting another keystroke on someone who presents themselves in a fashion such as yours.
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Old April 18, 2013, 09:58 AM   #46
Ought6
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He ran because.........

He ran because he knew you were going to "click the action" and he was scared. Go back to your fantasy life, hopefully it will not get you mauled.
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Old April 18, 2013, 11:03 AM   #47
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A 44 mag with 300ish grain bullets at 1200 fps compared to a 454 with 300ish grain bullets at 1500 fps. My thinking is that the 1500fps bullet will get more penetration than the 1200 fps bullet. It is a full 25% faster. I realize that will not equate to 25% more penetration, but it should be significantly more.
That is what most would assume but testing has not indicated a measurable difference. If you don't need the flatter trajectory you're beating yourself up for nothing.

http://www.handloads.com/misc/Lineba...ts.asp?Order=5


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Or was this a study on cast bullets in 45 colt and 44 mag at 1200 fps?
How could one conclude that exceeding 1200-1300fps does not yield an appreciable difference if you don't exceed 1200fps???
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Old April 18, 2013, 11:07 AM   #48
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Not trying to derail the thread, but even a powerful handgun has relatively low energy when compared to a shotgun or a rifle. If you are trying to kill a bear, big bore handguns will do the job nicely. If you are trying to stop a charge, you need to kill the bear NOW and not in 30 seconds, because a sprinting bear will cover the 50 yds between you in a little over 2 seconds, and those 28 seconds when the bear is gnawing on your skull will be the longest 10 seconds of your life. So, while I understand the attraction of a large bore handgun, if I were in big bear country and they posed a credible threat, I would carry a rifle or shotgun for backup.
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Old April 18, 2013, 11:10 AM   #49
Ought6
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What gun???????????

Well it did happened to me, and... I've had a bear run just by removing my gun from its holster.


What gun, your squirt gun?
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Old April 18, 2013, 12:02 PM   #50
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I'm not recoil shy, but... I have a Freedom Arms in 454, and that thing hurts me using factory ammo. Basically, I can't keep my wrist from bending up so I end up with a sore wrist.

Having said that, a sore wrist beats a faceful of bear.

I have an Alaskan in 454 on order, just for S&G, but I doubt I'll shoot much factory ammo in it. I shoot effectively +P Colt 45 loads in the Freedom Arms (250 - 300 grains at 1000/1100-ish fps).
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