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Old April 8, 2013, 09:06 PM   #1
alizeefan
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AR safety manipulation

Just finished watching Act of valour ( great movie ) starring active military personnel so had a very real feel to it.

I had a question about operating of the ar safety. I understand that whilst patrolling etc if threat emerges the safety is flicked off as rifle is brought to firing position but there was a scene early on where they are rescueing someone in a building where known threats exist. Would the safety be off as rooms are cleared one by one or would safety remain on until actual threat is engaged ?. Honestly i can see pro's and cons to both and was just curious what the professionals do.

Thanks for any help you can give and if you haven't seen the film i recommend it
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Old April 8, 2013, 09:11 PM   #2
Venom1956
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Im quite positive if your going IN to a gun fight the safety would and should be off and the weapon ready to fire.

Proper Trigger discipline is all that is required to keep a rifle safe when it is at the ready. If the weapon is slung or replaced for some reason the safety is returned to the on position so the trigger does not get caught on foreign objects while moving.
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Old April 8, 2013, 09:27 PM   #3
boxing21
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its trained into muscle memory to switch the safety selector to "fire" while brining the weapon up and onto target. Safety on, until firing upon a target. The amount of time to switch it off is really zero, as this action is being conducted the same time the muzzle is brought up to target. Maybe other units / proffessions do it different, that's just my personal experience.
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Old April 8, 2013, 09:37 PM   #4
James K
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Just curious, Boxing21, but is that military or police?

Jim
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Old April 8, 2013, 09:58 PM   #5
kraigwy
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I don't know how the army does it now, what with different rules of engagement but when I was in Vietnam everyone in the squad carried their rifles with a round in the chamber and safety on except for the point man, he had his safety off and selector switch on full auto.

Fast foreword a few years. I did the rifle training for our (Anchorage Police Dept) SWAT, (we called them CRT). I taught leave the rifle on safe until you're ready to fire.

It only takes an instant to flip off the safety. I can't think of a situation where the time it takes to flip the safety would make a difference. Especially on a M16/AR style rifle.
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Old April 8, 2013, 10:55 PM   #6
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I shoot with a marine who served in Iraq. The training that they received was for the marine on point to have his rifle on "fire" and the others behind him to have it on "safe". Once they moved into a building, if a soldier's rifle moved to his shoulder, he flicked the safety off in the process. Also, if they were stacked up to clear a room inside, again only the first soldier would have his rifle on fire before entering. The first three soldiers stacked up would clear the room, but only the point man would already have his rifle on fire upon entering.


My friend said that training helped immensely with how to clear a house safely and effectively. But, as always, some improvisations were necessary.
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Old April 9, 2013, 12:50 AM   #7
alizeefan
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Quote:
I shoot with a marine who served in Iraq. The training that they received was for the marine on point to have his rifle on "fire" and the others behind him to have it on "safe". Once they moved into a building, if a soldier's rifle moved to his shoulder, he flicked the safety off in the process. Also, if they were stacked up to clear a room inside, again only the first soldier would have his rifle on fire before entering. The first three soldiers stacked up would clear the room, but only the point man would already have his rifle on fire upon entering.
I agree that coming off safe as rifle comes to the shoulder seems very intuative. In the movie ( yes i get it's a movie ) the seals are " shouldered " as they search so you don't have that tactile que of mounting the rifle to sweep the safety. Not something that will affect me at all but always interesting to discover how tactics evolve and what works as a viable balance of safety/speed. Thanks to everyone for their thoughts, much appreciated
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Old April 9, 2013, 04:50 AM   #8
sfmedic
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weapons on safe and finger off the trigger unless actively engaging a target.

-book answer-

if the trigger finger isnt on the trigger - the trigger isnt going to pull itself

-just saying- :-)

i remember when the army transitioned from the 1911 to the M9.

I had one of committees teaching one of the courses at Special Warfare Center and Schools (SWC) that required A LOT of handgun training.

this rule was a pain for all the 1911 gunslingers when they were put on the protimers because muscle memory had them sweeping safeties in reverse until they trained out of it.

Im not admitn to nothn but.......

I imagine if you filmed me all day on the ranges - A good photo analyst might maybe possibly be able to distinguish a red dot on the rear of my Beretta slide while its in my holster if he looked real close .
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Old April 10, 2013, 10:15 AM   #9
iraiam
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When my rifle is shouldered the safety comes off, when it comes off my shoulder the safety goes back on. I'm not sure if that's absolutely correct but that's how I was taught, and thats how I practice.
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Old April 10, 2013, 10:27 PM   #10
raimius
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From what I've been trained, CSAT and various mil. unit's SOPs, you leave the safety ON until you go from the ready to on target. I've trained from the low ready, so as I bring the rifle up, I sweep the selector to FIRE. A few instructors I've learned from are VERY big on not moving with the safety off. There have been cases where someone tripped and launched rounds by accident (instinctively grabbing for something as they fell, but already had a firearm in one hand!)
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Old April 12, 2013, 10:33 AM   #11
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I fully support using a safety but in the last couple of years I have noticed guys at the range clicking safeties off and on and flipping rifles around doing constant chamber checks about as much as I blink. By the time I remove a mag and insert another.... they guy next to me has chamber checked his rifle 6 times and clicked his safety off and on 19 times.
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Old April 12, 2013, 05:32 PM   #12
Ben Dover
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If a circumstance were to present itself where the AR-15 was to be used in a defensive role, my finger would be off of the trigger, and the manual satety would be disengaged.

My military experience was with an M-1 carbine. A round was chambered only when the necessity to fire was imminent. The safety was engaged until the carbine was shouldered.

The 1911 pistol I was required to carry with the chamber unloaded.
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Old April 29, 2013, 10:45 PM   #13
SVTCobra306
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I'm a little late to the punch here, but boxing21 is absolutely correct. It is part of the action of bringing the rifle to firing position in CQB. That's not a book answer, anybody who has trained and conducted entering and clearing a room in a regular Army unit does it that way. There may be exceptions, but that's the standard. It becomes muscle memory, to the point that I still flip the safety off my Armalite when I bring it into firing position, and I've been a civilian since 2009. Entering where there is a known or even a probable threat, your adrenaline is high enough that you are relying as much on that muscle memory as you are on thinking through your every action. That is why all the training, and training, and training. As was mentioned before, any time at the low ready you are back on safe, even if it's long enough to stack on the next door.

Muzzle awareness is of utmost importance in a stack.. I always taught my section to "buttonhook" the first man into a room, it takes a split second longer, but the 2 man doesn't flag the 1 man that way.
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Old April 30, 2013, 08:04 AM   #14
Alabama Shooter
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After a number of tours in the box with different units I can say that every unit is a little different. I imagine most police departments are a little different too.

Quote:
It is part of the action of bringing the rifle to firing position in CQB. That's not a book answer, anybody who has trained and conducted entering and clearing a room in a regular Army unit does it that way.
Not always. I have seen it done that way but most training for CQB that I have done involves the weapon remaining in firing position during most room clearing.

During dismounted patrol the standard is safety on with it coming off when raised to the firing position.
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Old April 30, 2013, 10:16 PM   #15
SVTCobra306
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I don't doubt that every unit is different, all kinds of SOP's vary. However, the units I trained for CQB in, once the room was clear you were back at the low ready, on red with your IR off unless using the flood to look at something. However whenever going through a door (on a raid) we were weapons in firing position, and at least the 1 and 2 man went in black.. We used our IR a lot in training to develop awareness of flagging your buddy..

Lots of ways to skin a cat though, some of us went in to the corners, some units "strong wall" a room I'm sure others do other things. All of them work, as well as everyone is on the same sheet of music.
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Old May 12, 2013, 10:38 PM   #16
cmr287
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Re: AR safety manipulation

Being able to manipulate the safety in the low ready or the high ready position and to be able to acquire and engage a target almost in the exact same time takes a lot of skill and practice. Anytime running drills, you should take time and practice this. This drill needs to be done with gloves and without gloves and whatever kid you're going to fight with. In the military we say train as you fight, this should be handled the same way all the way around for civilians as well.
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Old May 13, 2013, 10:09 AM   #17
Constantine
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Safety off in the scenarios you mentioned. Even patrolling. Cause you're on alert anyways. Goes on "Safe" when it's not directly in my hands.
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