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Old May 12, 2013, 02:33 PM   #1
Hawg
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I find it ironic

I didn't want to disrupt another thread so I started a new one that I expect to be shut down shortly.

I just find it ironic that you can call a .45 Colt a Long Colt but you can't call a magazine a clip.
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Old May 12, 2013, 02:48 PM   #2
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I agree. I try to get it correct, but it really depends on who I am talking to. Some people get their kicks by nit picking what others say or write. There are many technically incorrect terms in use and terms that are open to debate as to their correctness. Most of the folks I know use clip instead of magazine. I don't let it bother me. BTW, you can't always call a 45Colt a Long Colt. One of my earlier threads got hijacked into a debate about 45 Colt/ Long Colt. I don't think I ever got an answer to my original question.
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Old May 12, 2013, 02:50 PM   #3
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Usually the addition of "Long" in 45 Colt sparks discussion, for lack of a better word, similar to "clip" and "knock down power".As does the term pistol used to describe any handgun. Some insist that a pistol is only a semi-auto, and a revolver is a revolver, not a pistol.
With that said, I think I'll take my old 45 Long Colt SA pistol out, and see what kind of knock down power it has. Being a wheel gun, I guess I won't need any clips!
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Old May 12, 2013, 02:52 PM   #4
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Here's the difference:

".45 Long Colt" is just a popular term for the .45 Colt cartridge. One may be more technically and historically correct, but they are both always used to refer to the same thing.

However, a "magazine" and a "clip" are two different things. They are not the same. "Clip" is often used incorrectly to mean "magazine", and you can often figure out what it means in context, but not always. For example: If someone says they need a "clip" for an SKS, do they mean a stripper clip for the original version or a magazine for a modified one? If someone asks for clips for an M4 do they mean magazines or do they mean the stripper clips military ammo comes on?

Saying ".45 Long Colt" doesn't result in confusion as to what you're referring to, whereas saying "clip" to mean "magazine" often does because a "clip" is something different.
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Old May 12, 2013, 02:54 PM   #5
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Way to go Cheapshooter. Call it what you want and to heck with what anyone else says. I think it becomes too much of an issue with some people.
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Old May 12, 2013, 02:55 PM   #6
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The 45 Long Colt and clip designations are so prevelant that big name manufacturers sometimes use them.
Language evolves, otherwise we'd still be saying thee and thou.
I long ago quit sweating it, most times anyway.
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Old May 12, 2013, 02:56 PM   #7
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I think a big part has to do with ammunition companies, I have seen both .45 Colt and .45 Long Colt marked on boxes of factory ammo. Where as "clip" I feel originated from the media, such as movies, tv shows, and ignorant news casters.
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Old May 12, 2013, 02:57 PM   #8
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At one time the Army used "Long Colt" to separate this ammo from the shorter 45 Schofield. In my youth I recall factory boxes marked 45 Long Colt. It is not technically incorrect to say Long Colt although it chaffs some people.

I am weary of the whole magazine/clip thing. Yes, a magazine is box and the clip is a spring. So what? Their purpose is the same. Use whatever term you like and I really don't much care.
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Old May 12, 2013, 03:00 PM   #9
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I did have to buy a clip for my Bersa. It was shaped like a "C". I think it was called a retaining clip.
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Old May 12, 2013, 03:21 PM   #10
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Quote:
At one time the Army used "Long Colt" to separate this ammo from the shorter 45 Schofield. In my youth I recall factory boxes marked 45 Long Colt.
The problem I have with this explanation is that it's just as easy to separate the two cartridges by calling one the .45 Schofield and the other the .45 Colt. There's no need to come up with another way to tell them apart.

This apparent conundrum disappears when one learns that there was actually a THIRD cartridge that was distinct from either the .45 Schofield and the .45 Colt but that was, confusingly enough, also sold under the designation of .45 Colt.

Elmer Keith refers to the cartridge in his book, Sixguns.
"Today we often hear the .45 Colt Peacemaker cartridge referred to as the .45 Long Colt. Some newcomers to the game claim there is no such animal, but if they had shot the short variety that Remington turned out in such profusion before, during, and after World War I, they would see there was some basis in referring to the .45 Colt as the .45 Long. These short .45 Remington cartridges for the .45 Colt were never very accurate due to the long bullet jump and the only thing that was standard about them was a 250 grain bullet."
Here's a writeup about the rounds, including some pictures of vintage ammunition.

http://www.leverguns.com/articles/ta...short_colt.htm

The round pictured is NOT a .45 Schofield, the cartridge dimensions do not match those of the .45 Schofield.

There's a picture of one of the rounds in question, and it is clearly headstamped .45 Colt, AND, it is also clearly much shorter than the .45 Colt.

Now the reason for the designation Long Colt makes perfect sense. Knowing that at one time, it was possible to purchase two distinct rounds that were both headstamped .45 Colt, and which differed primarily in length, it is very easy to understand why the long version became known as the .45 Long Colt.

Apparently it made enough sense that even Colt has used officially used the Long Colt designation a time or two.
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Old May 12, 2013, 03:29 PM   #11
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Quote:
SaxonPig posted
Yes, a magazine is box and the clip is a spring. So what?
A clip is not a spring and it's not part of the magazine (except in the unique case of an en-bloc clip). A clip is a strip of metal that holds rounds by the case rim for loading into a magazine or a cylinder.

Quote:
SaxonPig posted
Their purpose is the same. Use whatever term you like and I really don't much care.
Their purpose is different and they aren't the same. Sure, feel free to use the words interchangeably, and most of the time people will figure out what you mean, but it will still be incorrect.
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Old May 12, 2013, 03:38 PM   #12
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Quote:
I did have to buy a clip for my Bersa. It was shaped like a "C". I think it was called a retaining clip.
Nah, that was a C clip.
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Old May 12, 2013, 03:45 PM   #13
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However, a "magazine" and a "clip" are two different things. They are not the same. "Clip" is often used incorrectly to mean "magazine", and you can often figure out what it means in context, but not always. For example: If someone says they need a "clip" for an SKS, do they mean a stripper clip for the original version or a magazine for a modified one? If someone asks for clips for an M4 do they mean magazines or do they mean the stripper clips military ammo comes on?
Nicely said.
If I am not mistaken the word clip was used to describe the way the bullets are faceted for feeding from a stripper originally and a magazine is derived from the french word for storehouse because the bullets were stored inside of the housing.

The description or history of the clip is a little harder to define than the magazine.

Clip being used for magazine was made popular by TV and became more prominently used from WW2 films referring to the stripper clip used in rifles and people thought that a clip described anything that held bullets for loading any semiautomatic gun.

But use what you want, I have even called them clips without thinking because everyone that doesn't know uses it and it sticks in your head.lol
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Old May 12, 2013, 03:53 PM   #14
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Call it what you want and to heck with what anyone else says. I think it becomes too much of an issue with some people.
Because using incorrect terminology makes us all look uneducated to those antis who read these forums, thus perpetuating the myth that gun owners are "ignorant rednecks"?

Because taking a moment to use the proper terminology is the right thing to do?

Because we have so many new folks coming to guns for the first time in their lives and we shouldn't be confusing them?

And let's NOT get into the caliber versus cartridge fiasco..............
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Old May 12, 2013, 03:53 PM   #15
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Cheapshooter
Usually the addition of "Long" in 45 Colt sparks discussion, for lack of a better word, similar to "clip" and "knock down power".As does the term pistol used to describe any handgun. Some insist that a pistol is only a semi-auto, and a revolver is a revolver, not a pistol.
With that said, I think I'll take my old 45 Long Colt SA pistol out, and see what kind of knock down power it has. Being a wheel gun, I guess I won't need any clips!
OK, I will play the "How many nits can I pick" game.

Sam Colt referred to his product as a "revolving pistol".

Some double-action revolving pistols chambered for any number of rimmed and non-rimmed cases use clips, commonly referred to as "moon clip" to hold the cartridges.

Colt's Manufacturing gave in to the popular use of the adjective "long" in their proprietary 45 Colt and actually (I am told) labelled some ammo boxes as .45 Long Colt. Probably, at the time, to differentiate the 45 Colt from the slightly shorter, but same caliber .45 Schofield cartridge. Today, the "Long" serves to specify the 45 Colt as opposed to the 45 ACP (which is often called "Colt 45" cartridge.

Which action type has exclusive claim to the term "pistol"? What about single-shot pistols and the two-shot deringers (or is that "derringer"?) and Howdah pistols?

I don't know of any other activity that has so much argument over terminology as firearms and shooting. I wonder what the oldest controversial term argument is? I recall the insistence of Marine Drill Instructors over differentiating "Rifle" from "Gun".

Precise terminology is important for accurate communication. But sometimes precision does get in the way of accuracy. (get it?)

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Old May 12, 2013, 04:07 PM   #16
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Single Action revolvers (SAA stands for Single Action Army) tend to be made in .45 LONG COLT. The original version being the .45 COLT (the U.S. Army adopted a 230 gr lead slug at 850 fps) and bit later the civilian version, slightly longer, called the .45 LONG COLT which threw a 255 grain lead slug at 900+.

The Army load had a shorter case what would work though the top break Schofield top break revolver.

So in a way, there was a .45 Colt.

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Old May 12, 2013, 04:14 PM   #17
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Quote:
Because using incorrect terminology makes us all look uneducated to those antis who read these forums, thus perpetuating the myth that gun owners are "ignorant rednecks"?

Because taking a moment to use the proper terminology is the right thing to do?

Because we have so many new folks coming to guns for the first time in their lives and we shouldn't be confusing them?
I will agree with you on this, but sometimes you have to consider your audience. If you get too caught up in proper language you are always in a battle with ignorance. Look at modern language in general. Do you want to try to fix that? If you insist on all the proper terminology you may appear to be obsessive-compulsive or whatever the proper diagnosis is.
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Old May 12, 2013, 04:17 PM   #18
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Gee. I remember referring to magazines as clips in the early 1960s .... I'm not even sure there WAS a 'media' back then to have originated the usage. And I kind of think that there were things called 'pistols' before there were semi-autos. If a revolver can only be referred to by its specific design configuration, shouldn't we also have to only refer to self-loaders as 'autos' rather than 'pistols'?

I was brought up in a house full of English teachers, but sometimes I think these arguments are the product of an argument in desperate search of a topic.
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Old May 12, 2013, 05:01 PM   #19
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Quote:
Because using incorrect terminology makes us all look uneducated to those antis who read these forums, thus perpetuating the myth that gun owners are "ignorant rednecks"?
I do use the proper terminology, just thought this comment would point out how common the use of the wrong termanology is. BTW, bet you knew exactly what I was talking about.
As far as the antis looking at us as uneducated , or ignorant, do you actually think they know the difference in a clip, and a magazine?
I pointed out the dfference in a magazine and a clip in what I thought was a polite fashon not too long ago toa brand new member on TFL, only to get a reply ridiculing me for my smart alec attitude. Never again, I'll just let them be thrown to the wolves!
Now, I gotta load some bullets up in the clips for my Hi-Point that I'm taking to the range tomorrow. Maybe some +p+ bullets for my 380 and 32 I got from Supergreat Ammo Boutique company as well.
(Lots of things that aren't technically correct are mentioned in tge firearms world. By both shooters, and manufacturers.)
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Old May 12, 2013, 05:07 PM   #20
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I'm thinking about switching to a Partridge sight.
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Old May 12, 2013, 06:30 PM   #21
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As long as we don't excommunicate other pronounce anathema we can debate what terminology to use.
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Old May 12, 2013, 06:48 PM   #22
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The .45 Colt cartridge was standard issue in the army for many years. The army also adoptred and used the Smith and Wesson Shofield pistol, which was chambered for the .45 S&W, a shorter cartridge. Soldiers, mostly officers and senior NCOs who were purchasing ammunition for their Colt revolvers specified "Long Colt" to assure that they would not receive the shorter S&W round. Quite simple really.

Since the majority of Americans think of the magazine in a pistol as a "clip" I find it distressing that some continuie to make such an issu te of it.

Ignorant redneck? Indeed, I have a bit of formal education, I know the technical terminology quite well, and the uise of clip disturbs me not at all.

In my military days, I was told that my personal weapon was a "sidearm." I would endure a bit of abuse if I called it a gun. Guns have wheels on them!

And what exactly is a shot? Something that comes from a weapon, a drink of spirits, or an injection??

I won't belabor the point further, but why get upset about sometghing so utterly trivial?
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Old May 12, 2013, 07:01 PM   #23
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I've really enjoyed this thread. Such passion and intellect.

What it tells me is we seem to have way too much time on our hands.
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Old May 12, 2013, 07:02 PM   #24
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Quote:
Ben Dover posted
why get upset about something so utterly trivial?
To me, using "clip" to mean "magazine" represents ignorance about firearms, and it's ignorance about firearms that drives so many of the ridiculous gun laws in this country.

My aversion to the term being misused has become worse in recent months, as we constantly hear politicians and the media use terms like "high-capacity clip" and "magazine clip" while they discuss banning things they know absolutely nothing about.

Maybe I'm being a little ridiculous, but that's how I feel on the subject.
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Old May 12, 2013, 07:23 PM   #25
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Theo,

When the entire country understands a term, where is the problem?

After WW2 and the Korean conflict, most veterans referred to the magazines in their pistols as clips.

I knew several senior NCOs that called their M-16 magaxzines clips. I never found it necessary to reprimand them.

There are so many issues of importance facing us today, that I find minor distractions like this distasteful. I know whaty they mean. That's adequate for me.
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