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Old April 17, 2013, 04:59 PM   #101
I'vebeenduped
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L_Killkenny "...if anybody defending him and dissin the LEO actually read the article and/or watched the video."

It doesn't matter if he was "dissin" the LEO's. That, in and of itself, is not illegal. All we have to go off of from this point are the videos and the news reports. From the information available, it doesn't look as the LEO's have too much to stand on. The ONLY recorded reason they gave for his arrest was the way he displayed his weapon. This was not illegal as well. Search and seizure needs probable cause. At least it used to. A phone call about a man with a weapon may come close to that, however, casual observation should have rules that out as his weapon was secured to his gear. A conversation should have easily reaffirmed that. His attitude, if he wore it on his sleeves or not, has nothing to do with this.

Maybe Rosa Parks had an attitude on the bus. Would that have changed anything?
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Old April 17, 2013, 05:31 PM   #102
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My comment wasn't about HIM dissin the LEO's, it was about his supporters dissin the LEO's. Nothing I saw on the video was out of line for the LEO. Didn't lose his head, didn't club him (I might of), didn't tase him (again, I might have). Of coarse I'm using the guy's BS statement, his history and his video to fill in the blanks on what happened before the video started rollin. Doesn't take a trianed monkey to figure out he was out of line with attitude well before the tape rolled. Good thing for some (his supporters) it doesn't take a trained monkey to type at a keyboard either.

And comparing having to, either voluntary or by law, TEMPORARILY set aside your gun while in contact with an LEO to having to sit in the back of a bus or use a separate bathroom or any other racist BS is appalling. Frikin genius.
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Old April 17, 2013, 05:54 PM   #103
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In many jurisdictions, he needs probable cause that the guy is doing something illegal in order to seize property, even a gun. He's not making a move for the gun. He's keeping his hands away from it. It's my understanding, in Texas, he would need probable cause in order to seize property (you know, that pesky 4th Amendment...always getting in the way of police work).
Being told to put down the gun is NOT the seizing of property and is not a violation of the pesky 4th amendment. Refusing to follow an officers' lawful commands (as claimed by the officers) does then give probable cause, however, for being detained and as such for the seizure of the firearms, hence not violating the 4th Amendment.
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Old April 17, 2013, 05:57 PM   #104
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Refusing to follow an officers' lawful commands (as claimed by the officers) does then give probable cause, however, for being detained and as such for the seizure of the firearms, hence not violating the 4th Amendment.
I don't presume the commands were lawful anymore than I presume this guy wasn't out of line. A Terry stop requires a reasonable suspicion of criminal activity.
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Old April 17, 2013, 09:12 PM   #105
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The "Terry stop" came after Grisham's refusal to comply.

Quote:
The ONLY recorded reason they gave for his arrest was the way he displayed his weapon.
No, the only KNOWN recorded reason they gave for the arrest was a flippant euphemism. That it was recorded does not mean it is the only statement made and that the statement was made does not make it the official reason for the arrest.
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Old April 17, 2013, 09:37 PM   #106
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The "Terry stop" came after Grisham's refusal to comply.
Doesn't the Terry Stop have to, by definition come before a refusal to comply? They can't stop him without beginning the Terry Stop?
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Old April 17, 2013, 10:29 PM   #107
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Sadly, a number of us don't live in the real world. While open rifle carry is legal (to a degree) here in Texas, it is HIGHLY UNUSUAL for someone to do so. When I say highly unusual, I mean incredibly unusual as in practically never done in any remotely urban or populated area. Even the age of rifle racks in rear truck windows has since long passed decades ago. Plus, Temple ain't "rural" anymore. You also have to know that there isn't much legal shooting you can do in this state from a roadway, if any, in any event.

Given the current state of the times that we live in with a heightened sense of mass shooter fear, I suggest that while it may be totally legal to stroll around with an AR-15 over your shoulder (it is noteworthy that he did not have it slung over his shoulder, which may suggest it was calculated to cause alarm), it is probably foolish to do so and is looking to cause commotion if nothing else. You are basically guaranteed that someone will dial 911 and the police will show up. You are also guaranteed that the police officers who show up will treat you as a dangerous individual looking to do harm until you prove otherwise (right or wrong). Non-cooperation with law enforcement in every instance guarantees that you will be treated as a dangerous, non-law-abiding individual EVEN IF YOU ARE "COMPLETELY LEGAL."

Let's consider a different "completely legal" scenario. It is absolutely positively without question legal for me to "openly" carry a handgun in my home. Let's say that something happens such as an attempted burglary during the night in my home and I call the police. If the police arrive and they come upon me carrying a firearm, they are going to treat me as bad first and good later. They are going to ask or order me to disarm myself, and if I do not comply, they certainly can, and likely will, act accordingly. THEY DO NOT HAVE TO PRESUME THAT I AM COMPLETELY LEGAL AT THAT MOMENT IN MY POSSESSION OF A FIREARM. While I am "completely legal," given the context, it is prudent to comply with law enforcement. It is one thing if the redcoats are at my door demanding that I turn over my weapons, and it is another thing if I am strolling through a mall parking lot with my AK-47 and the police pull up and ask me to put down my rifle before asking questions. To think that law enforcement personnel are going to have a conversation with someone who is holding a semi-auto rifle in the ready position to determine whether or not he/she has bad intentions is completely ignorant.

The bottom line is that, WHILE HE MAY BE TOTALLY LEGAL, this guy was either looking for conflict and found it, is a couple cents short of a dollar, or just stupid. For him to drag his kid into it and make him film the thing is disgusting. This wasn't that boy's political statement to make, it was his. This man knew what he was doing and what might happen when he left the house that day, and he got it, which is what I bet he secretly wished would happen. Well, it happened, but it didn't go the way he wanted to, or maybe it did? In any event, this isn't good press for 2nd amendment supporters - it's just the opposite. Thanks, Sergeant Idiot.
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Old April 18, 2013, 01:27 AM   #108
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My comment wasn't about HIM dissin the LEO's, it was about his supporters dissin the LEO's. Nothing I saw on the video was out of line for the LEO. Didn't lose his head, didn't club him (I might of), didn't tase him (again, I might have). Of coarse I'm using the guy's BS statement, his history and his video to fill in the blanks on what happened before the video started rollin. Doesn't take a trianed monkey to figure out he was out of line with attitude well before the tape rolled. Good thing for some (his supporters) it doesn't take a trained monkey to type at a keyboard either.

And comparing having to, either voluntary or by law, TEMPORARILY set aside your gun while in contact with an LEO to having to sit in the back of a bus or use a separate bathroom or any other racist BS is appalling. Frikin genius.
I'll ask again, since my comment asking this got deleted, because your comment I was responding to got deleted. I'm not bickering, I just want to know what you think. Where in the video, did Grisham do anything at all to warrant the treatment he got? Where would you find probable cause in anything he did in that video? Where was he doing anything illegal?

I know, you'll say something about "his history" which 1) would have no legal bearing on his actions that particular day, and 2) would have been unknown by the cops...and even if they did know, it would have been illegal to use that as probable cause. About all you seem to be able to muster is that he had, "a bad attitude" which isn't enough for probable cause, and is certainly not illegal in and of itself.

I'm asking this because the only actual facts we have about this particular case at this point is the video. You may believe he did something wrong to garner the treatment he got, but there is nothing factual that we know of that he did to cause that.

If the Temple Police release a dash cam video with audio and it shows he did something wrong, I'll be the first in line to condemn the man for what he did. But we don't have that. All we have is one video showing a few police officers arrest a man for, and in their own words, "rudely displaying" a rifle. Huh? Are they making up laws now? My favorite part was when the officer removed the 1911, he swept the muzzle across Grisham's head, neck and back. In most states, that's aggravated assault.

The part that really amazed me about this is the people on this forum (not directed at anyone in particular) who would so willingly give up their rights just to make their life a bit easier. The, "Well, if he had just done what they told him to do, he wouldn't have gone to jail." If he was in the right, he shouldn't have to do what they told him to do.

I'm going to make a prediction. Grisham is going to go to court to fight this. He'll likely get some relatively high profile lawyer to represent him pro bono. The charges will get dropped then. Of course, we won't know why they were dropped exactly, but it wouldn't take a rocket scientist to know that it's like the Temple PD and the DA don't want that dashcam video getting out for everyone to see, and embarrassing them. The chief of police will make a statement, something along the lines of, "Our officers were just doing their duty, and didn't do anything wrong. However, we believe Mr. Grisham has learned his lesson, and we don't want to get into a long court battle at the tax payers expense just to prove that."

Of course, I don't know for sure if that will happen, but it really seems reasonable to me.
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Old April 18, 2013, 07:56 AM   #109
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New article...
http://www.theblaze.com/stories/2013...ney-weighs-in/
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Old April 18, 2013, 09:21 AM   #110
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"After insisting that there could be more to this case than what’s shown on the video, Flint said it doesn’t appear as if Grisham ever resisted or failed to comply with the demands of officers. The police were within their right to investigate the situation after receiving a 911 call, the attorney explained, but an officer still has to have a reasonable suspicion that a crime is being committed or could be committed at a later time before detaining a suspect in the first place."
http://www.theblaze.com/stories/2013...ney-weighs-in/

L_Killkenny "And comparing having to, either voluntary or by law, TEMPORARILY set aside your gun while in contact with an LEO to having to sit in the back of a bus or use a separate bathroom or any other racist BS is appalling. Frikin genius."
"“There are certain things that one might be advised to do when dealing with police officers and you are in possession of a firearm,” Flint told TheBlaze. “I always advise people to make an officer feel as safe and comfortable as possible. But just because that’s good advice doesn’t mean that has to be done.”"
http://www.theblaze.com/stories/2013...ney-weighs-in/

L_Killkenny, some people, like this MSG or Rosa Parks, prefer to fight for thier beliefs. Others voice their eagerness to simply roll over when confronted.
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Old April 18, 2013, 06:19 PM   #111
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Army sergent arrested for legal possession of a firearm

I find it tragic that just over 200 years ago, one of the most intelligent men of his time advised this to his nephew:

"A strong body makes the mind strong. As to the species of exercise, I advise the gun. While this gives a moderate exercise to the body, it gives boldness, enterprize, and independance to the mind. Games played with the ball and others of that nature, are too violent for the body and stamp no character on the mind. Let your gun therefore be the constant companion of your walks."

Read more at http://www.snopes.com/quotes/jeffers...aAJotXA4gMX.99

How far has America slid down the slippery slope of liberty.
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Old April 18, 2013, 06:25 PM   #112
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Can we stay with specifically discussing the incident?

Thanks.
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Old April 18, 2013, 06:48 PM   #113
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Glenn, since the incident involved the man taking a walk with his gun, the historical context actually bears directly on the incident under discussion. IE, this used to be NORMAL.
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Old April 18, 2013, 06:52 PM   #114
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Thank you MLeake. I confess I'm a little bit of a Jefferson fanboy. And I wasn't even born here.
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Old April 19, 2013, 10:18 AM   #115
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It did used to be normal, but not in more than a generation and so no longer is the norm. Thomas Jefferson didn't know a thing about Texas. Grisham and his son were not exercising, but working on a scout patch, just one that involved walking long distance. It wasn't like they did this every weekend to stay fit.
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Old April 19, 2013, 10:23 AM   #116
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DNS, how do you know this isn't part of a semi-regular workout routine? I knew plenty of people who would hike with IBAs and issued boots, as part of home cycle conditioning pre-deployment. I have no trouble thinking somebody, in an area where legal, might do similar with weapon in normal deployment carry position.

Note, also, that one of the arguments regularly used by OC proponents is that one reason the norm has shifted is that we have become afraid of harassment over OC.
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Old April 19, 2013, 10:28 AM   #117
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I have an Eberlestock Gunslinger I that I use for hunting. Every weekend I have a full pack and hike 8-10 miles. My Mauser is in the scabbard there along with everything else I need for hunting. I live at the very edge of Phoenix near a mountain preserve. Still, we are very populated. The city police drove by me this past weekend with no problems or funny looks.
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Old April 19, 2013, 09:54 PM   #118
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This discussion has weaved left and right, as our discussions do.

This one is very typical, our resident "Don't like Cops" people, do their thing.

Our "We should be let do what we want Guys" They are alive and well.

Having been involved with teaching weapons, most of my adult life, I can see both sides. Reference Officer Safety, the position the Rifle was, magazine seated, would make one believe, the Rifle could be deployed very swiftly, for short range body hits. Just drop your hands, safety off, swivel body, and Rifle, fire multiple rounds.

So the verbal would be pleasant, a greeting, direction, "please do not handle your rifle" then the why of what brings me here.

I think it could have been resolved, even given the circumstances,

This ends in Court, the Dash cam video plus the Citizens video would be shown.

My take would be, as a Juror, I would most likely lean with the Soldier.
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Old April 20, 2013, 02:11 AM   #119
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Also I've been told if I ever need to be disarmed for ANY reason. I am to let an LEO approach me and do it for me. I am not to reach for or remove a gun from its slung or holstered position. It could be taken as a threat or used against you. If they want you disarmed they can do it. That way if anything happens it's due to their error and not yours.
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Old April 21, 2013, 09:25 AM   #120
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His actions were very unusual and warranted investigating given the circumstances. If he had been walking on the trail carrying a new flat screen TV box I bet the police would have checked him out too just to make sure it wasn't stolen. Because hey you don't see people walking along that trail carrying guns or flat screen TVs as a normal course of events. Both would be perfectly legal activities though.
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Old April 21, 2013, 09:35 AM   #121
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Thing is, Alabama Shooter, the TFL members from that area have indicated his actions (carring a slung AR on a rural road) were not particularly unusual for that area. IIRC, you are in Huntsville.... do you have some familiarity with the area where this occurred?
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Old April 21, 2013, 10:10 AM   #122
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When I was stationed at Ft. Hood over the years I spent some time in the area. That entire area has grown amazingly in the last twenty years.
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Old April 21, 2013, 10:23 AM   #123
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While at Fort Hood, did you spend much time around the area described in he article (which was described as rural, and near farms)? What would be weird here, in the nearby city, would not be weird at all here, along the oiled or gravel country roads nine miles from town.
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Old April 21, 2013, 12:21 PM   #124
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I live in Temple so I am going to chime in here about a few points. I have dealt with Temple PD, and know more than a few of the officers here. Most are very friendly. They will be nice even if they are writing you a ticket. I have never had any personal dealings with either of the officers in the video, and I am legaly deaf so I can not make out the exchange of words they are having.

First is not much of Temple is rural. The population is over 60K. The town is still mostly blue collar workers. It is a traditional rail road town centraly located to Interstate Highway 35. There are several factories, and a great many warehouses here. There has been a large explosion in the local population over the past 10 years. We are about a 30 minute drive from Ft. Hood, and many soldiers tend to move here once they are out of the service. Near to half the adult population here are veterans. The outskirts of town are semi rural. There are a few farms, and on the other end of town is an area around the lake. Temple PD has 133 sworn full time officers.

Open carry of a long gun while it may be legal is going to lead to a person calling the police. With cell phones as they are in this day, and age a passer by driving is almost sure to call 911 with a "guy walking down the road with a gun" call. Even if it is not "illegal" the police will send someone to check it out.

Now while the officer is checking things out. He can very legaly disarm someone he is questioning for the officer's safety while things are being sorted out. They are also legal in doing a pat down to check for other weapons. Failing to cooperate to do so is a crime, even if you were not breaking any laws to beging with. The charge is "resting search, or detention." I think it is a class B misdemenor. (Up to 6 months in county with a fine if I remeber correctly.)

I have had Temple PD show up while I was hunting in the rural areas, at Corps of Engineers' hunting areas. I was walking from one to another along a highway. One was passing by, and stopped me. He was friendly, and asked me to put the weapon in the back seat of his car while things were checked out. I did so. He did a pat down search, then asked me what I was doing. I was friendly back, and told him I was walking to the other area to hunt. He checked my hunting license, and my ID. He checked my ammo to assure that it complied with the Corps restriction of shot gun with shot only. It did so he sent me on my way reminding me I could not shoot within 500 feet of the roadway, or any building. He wished me luck, gave me my shot gun back, after drooling over it. Then sent me on my way. While this happened another officer came up. Both were nice to me, I was nice to them. (This was 16 years ago, and I was a 19 year old college student, and it was dove season.)
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Old April 21, 2013, 01:38 PM   #125
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Gentlemen can't we all just get along?

Wow where to start with this mess. As A law enforcement officer I can see both sides of this. I feel that the responding Officer could have handled this much better than he did but since I don't know the full story I will withhold judgment until I hear the whole thing from both sides. Where I think the Officer with be handed his backside is with the minor child. It is very common for us to separate people to get different sides to the story but to hold a minor child without the permission of the parent until he talks is not permissible ever. Civil rights violation all day long.
Now if I received this call I would roll up and politely ask the gentleman if he was out hunting? I would inform him we had a 911 call of a man with a gun and that I have to investigate this call. Where we went from there would be up to him but I would instruct him to point the gun at the ground while we talked. If he refused to do so then and only then would we have a problem. At this point he is now breaking a law in my state. He would be impeding an investigation which is a misdemeanor and then he could be placed under arrest. As I said all of how this went is up to him.
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