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Old April 19, 2013, 10:35 AM   #51
Bartholomew Roberts
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Just to clarify the sound levels involved:

An unsuppressed 16" .223 would be around 160 decibels.
Suppressed with a high quality suppressor that same .223 is about 130 decibels.

According to OSHA, that is about the same sound level as being 100m from a jet during takeoff.

At a sound level of 101 decibels (suppressor and earplugs), you are still 16 decibels above the threshold OSHA considers safe for exposure to intermittent sounds 8 hours a day.
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Old April 19, 2013, 10:38 AM   #52
zukiphile
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kochman
Quote:
You have described no legitimate use for a nuclear briefcase, yet the legitimate use for a suppressor has been described to you repetitively.
I don't find it legit in the least... given the existence of earplugs.

I do not believe you understand the statements to which you respond.

That earplugs exist categorically cannot bear on the legitimacy of the use to which a suppressor is put. This is not a subjective observation. This is not something you may find legitimate or not.

A use, legitimate on its face, has been described.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kochman
Suppressors are used to make your position less clear, keep people from hearing your shot, etc.
Here you refer to the motivation of a person for using a suppressor, not what a suppressor itself does. That you may describe malevolent applications for a suppressor does not make your descriptions comprehensive.

You have not addressed the facially legitimate uses for suppressors.

You indicated that you would respond to Spats' inquiry once you received an answer regarding the nuclear briefcase. You have received that answer

You are now free to respond to the pending question:

Why do suppressors "need" to stay on the NFA list?
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Old April 19, 2013, 10:38 AM   #53
Culhnd
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I'd venture that almost all hunters would use suppressors if they were legal.

Hunters go to great lengths to reduce the ability of wildlife to detect them (see, smell, or hear) - we buy camo so we can't be seen and scent protection to prevent being smelled. You stay as quiet as you can while walking through the woods. There is a huge difference is how long it takes the woods to return to "normal" if I shoot my bow, .22, or 25-06.

Doesn't matter that suppressors aren't really silent - I'm sure I still stink some when wearing scent protection. Hunters will buy anything that gives them even the perception of an "edge".
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Old April 19, 2013, 10:41 AM   #54
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I would add one more use for suppressors: training. While I am not a certified trainer (by any stretch of the imagination), I could easily see that suppressed rifles would be useful in training young shooters. The reduced noise would allow them to develop trigger control without developing the flinch that comes from the much louder (unsurpressed) bang.
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Old April 19, 2013, 10:44 AM   #55
Kochman
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Quote:
I'd venture that almost all hunters would use suppressors if they were legal.
Doubtful... negative effects on accuracy/range that really provide zero benefit.
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Old April 19, 2013, 10:45 AM   #56
Bartholomew Roberts
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Spats McGee
I would add one more use for suppressors: training. While I am not a certified trainer (by any stretch of the imagination), I could easily see that suppressed rifles would be useful in training young shooters. The reduced noise would allow them to develop trigger control without developing the flinch that comes from the much louder (unsurpressed) bang.
Which is a great point. I start out novice shooters on my suppressed .223 because many of them are concerned about recoil and a suppressor acts as a super-effective muzzle brake while reducing blast. However, when we move to unsuppressed .223, almost all of them start to flinch until they get readjusted, even if the unsuppressed gun also has a brake.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kochman
Doubtful... negative effects on accuracy/range that really provide zero benefit.
There are no negative effects to range caused by a modern suppressor. Nobody uses wipes anymore. The only downside to accuracy is the issue of maintaining a steady position with an extra 20oz of weight at the far end of a long lever - so basically, only standing unsupported shots.
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Old April 19, 2013, 10:46 AM   #57
Kochman
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Quote:
An unsuppressed 16" .223 would be around 160 decibels.
Suppressed with a high quality suppressor that same .223 is about 130 decibels.
Ever heard a .22LR suppressed?
It's just like the "pffft" in the "movies".

Mix a .223 with subsonic ammo?
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Old April 19, 2013, 10:46 AM   #58
MLeake
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Kochman, suppressors may not be necessary for the shooter, due to plugs and muffs, but they certainly might be appreciated by the neighbors of the shooter.

Meanwhile, you still ignore my question about why you continually place the onus on citizens, rather than on the government. Why is that?
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Old April 19, 2013, 10:47 AM   #59
Kochman
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The government has established why it is not worth the risk/benefit equation to allow things that really have very few legit uses.
Therefore, to be an exception...
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Old April 19, 2013, 10:48 AM   #60
zukiphile
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kochman
Ever heard a .22LR suppressed?
It's just like the "pffft" in the "movies".
Why is that important?

Should air rifles be NFA items?
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Old April 19, 2013, 10:49 AM   #61
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How many air rifles have been successfully used to kill people?

Mossad, for example, used .22 as it's assassination round for some time... suppressed even sometimes!
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Old April 19, 2013, 10:50 AM   #62
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So what are the legit uses for pet rocks? Weird Al CDs? Skateboards?

You routinely side with government making decisions for us citizens as to which of our wants are legitimate, Kochman. You should see if Bloomberg is hiring; he would love you.
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Old April 19, 2013, 10:51 AM   #63
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Using suppressors to kill people is a non-argument.

They are commonplace in places like New Zealand and are not used to "kill people" in any appreciable numbers.

Come on, Man!
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Old April 19, 2013, 10:51 AM   #64
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Kochman, air rifles used to be available in .455 caliber, and were a preferred weapon of poachers.

Ask a silly question...
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Old April 19, 2013, 10:52 AM   #65
Kochman
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What are the illegit uses of those items?
Assassination? Poaching?

At MLeake...
How many people generally are killed by air rifles in a year? Answer the question.
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Old April 19, 2013, 10:52 AM   #66
zukiphile
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kochman
How many air rifles have been successfully used to kill people?
Some but not many I would think.

Lethality cannot be the standard, since unsuppressed weapons account for many more deaths than suppressed ones.
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Old April 19, 2013, 10:53 AM   #67
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You guys... you're dissembling and splitting unnecessary hairs here... if this can't be a rational discussion...
Ciao
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Old April 19, 2013, 10:54 AM   #68
MLeake
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Kochman, how many people (outside war zones where SOF operate) are killed by suppressed weapons? Answer the question.
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Old April 19, 2013, 10:55 AM   #69
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We are dissembling... Now that is rich.
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Old April 19, 2013, 10:56 AM   #70
Bartholomew Roberts
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Quote:
Ever heard a .22LR suppressed?
It's just like the "pffft" in the "movies".

Mix a .223 with subsonic ammo?
I've got a bit of trigger time with suppressors - ARs, MP5SD2, .22's. A suppressor works just like a muffler by delaying the exit of hot supersonic gases until they have had time to cool and slow. Naturally, if you choose a round with less powder, there are less combustible gases to cool and less noise.

132db - unsuppressed .22LR (as quiet as a suppressed .223)
91db - suppressed .22LR with top notch suppressor (41db reduction - still 6db over OSHA threshold of 85db)
68db - unsuppressed subsonic .22lr (CCI Quiet 2 - about as quiet as a loud conversation/car road noise)

Subsonic does nothing to make the suppressor quieter, it just reduces bullet flight noise (the tiny supersonic wave that accompanies the bullet). If you shoot subsonic out of a normal rifle, it will be quieter.

.223 subsonic ammo is just a bad idea. You've basically reduced yourself to a .22 Long and you are eventually going to have a baffle strike that trashes your suppressor.

Last edited by Bartholomew Roberts; April 19, 2013 at 11:07 AM.
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Old April 19, 2013, 10:57 AM   #71
Kochman
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Quote:
Kochman, how many people (outside war zones where SOF operate) are killed by suppressed weapons? Answer the question.
Absolutely irrelevant, since they're pretty rare...
That's like asking how many people are killed by Walther PPKs made in 1934.
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Old April 19, 2013, 10:58 AM   #72
zukiphile
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kochman
You guys... splitting unnecessary hairs here
I assure you that those hairs needed splitting.
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Old April 19, 2013, 10:59 AM   #73
overhead
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From 1995 to 2005 136 people were convicted of possession of a suppressor. During that same period of time, two murders were committed that involved suppressed weapons.

http://wcr.sonoma.edu/v08n2/44.clark/clark.pdf
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Old April 19, 2013, 10:59 AM   #74
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Instead of getting into the nuclear briefcase apples and oranges, lets do Golden Noble vs Gingergold apples

Golden Noble apples are cooking apples.

Gingergold are both cooking and out of hand apples.

Earplugs are decibel reducers.

Electronic muffs are high decibel reducers, and low decibel magnifiers.

Why does one need one over the other? If no one needs to only reduce decibels, we should ban the ear plugs and force everyone to use electronic muffs.
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Old April 19, 2013, 11:00 AM   #75
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Quote:
Absolutely irrelevant, since they're pretty rare...
But, but, but .... aren't you the one who brought it up that suppressors are used for killing people?
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