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Old April 12, 2013, 12:40 AM   #1
Derius_T
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Still Alive...(and an AK 922r question to boot)

Hey all. I know I have been mia for a few years, but just wanted to pop in and say hello, and wanted to ask a general ak question. (will be interesting to see how many "old timers" are still around)

Just bought a Norinco nhm90. Extremely clean, pristine condition. Here's the question, will removing the "factory" stock, handgrips,ect hurt the collector value of the gun too much? I was told Norinco's are considered by some to be the cream of the crop, and some have suggested I leave it original to retain the most value.

Problem is, I hate the thumbhole stock. Hard for me to shoot. To take it off, I must replace it, (and 4 other parts) made in the USA in order for the weapon to be 922r compliant from what I understand. Is this correct, or does this only apply to assembly as the laws seem to state?

Anyway, thanks in advance.
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Old April 12, 2013, 11:02 AM   #2
Drhc116
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Simply removing the stock and handguards will not hurt the collector value as long as you keep the parts and do not do any modifications that cannot be undone. If you should ever want to sell the rifle just install the factory gear and you should be all good. I have a norinco Mak 90 that I thought about making compliant but the chicom FCG is just so sweet that I could not bring myself to replace it with a tapco replacement. Long story short, I chose to keep my MAK all orginal because it shoots so well. Make it compliant if that is what you want to do and keep all of the orginal take offs and you should be fine.
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Old April 12, 2013, 11:05 AM   #3
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There is not reason you can't have both, remove the thumb-hole and keep it, and get a regular stock. If you ever want to sell it, you have the whole ensemble and can sell it at an even higher price as it has both the inherent value intact and the parts that make it far more usable and what those cost.

Ok, I do not know state to state (CA probably requires a 5 round magazine as mine has one of those with it which I use because it handles better than that long 30 rounder).

My understanding of the 922r rule is that it has to be 5 US parts.

New stock actually would be three parts, stock, grip and the hand-guard (yes there are two but only counts as one part for whatever reasons of bureaucracy)

After that, the easiest (and in my opinion the best) way for use use in public arena, US made magazines (you can have the old magazines around, just not in the gun). Magazine actually count for 3 parts. The magazine, the follower and the floor plate. Spring does not count (or the follower does not). That give you 6.

MAK90 is regarded as the best AK made, normally its a stamped receiver but its the heavier stamping at 50% thicker, has chromed barrel and piston, bolt setup. Trigger is the best of the AKs and dual finger. I have fired the corrosive stuff in mine and no rust has showed up (I clean with Hoppes 9 but am not always religious about it)

There is nothing that you can replace that would make it any better, ergo the advice about using magazine to reach the right count. I would carry my papers with me to shooting range to prove it if challenged (not likely I think but....)
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Old April 12, 2013, 11:27 AM   #4
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I used a red star trigger group to get compliance. It's a very nice adjustable trigger. Very clean break.
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Old April 12, 2013, 11:29 AM   #5
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under normal conditions yes, changing anything from standard configuration requires you to replace a full 6 parts on an AK(5 if the butt stock and pistol grip are 1 part). but this does not function the same way as the SKS where they are imported as a C&R. Norinco is North China Industries Company, a civilian manufacturing firm. their guns are not C&R and were never used in wartime so they really have little collectors value to anyone, aside from being somewhat of a rarity. as they are not a C&R(not more than 50 years old) they can not be imported without already being 922R compliant. usually, like in the case of century arms imports, you will find that they have tapco stock/pistolgrip/handguard/foregrip/ and a tapco trigger group(3 parts) dropping them below the 10 foreign made parts restriction.

if you truly have a 100% factory norinco AK then it is already non compliant and needs to be remedied... at least that's how I understand it.
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Old April 12, 2013, 01:13 PM   #6
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As I understand it what makes them some of the most valuable and sought after variants is the chrome lined parts, thicker barrel and receiver, and having arguably the best trigger group made, as was said above. However, as I am finding out, the real value lies in the fact that while you can buy imports and US made AK's that are compliant, you can not buy any chinese AK's ever anymore, as they are completely banned from importation, compliant or not. That means what's here is all that will ever be here.

It does really have a sweet trigger. But I really despise that stock. The trigger group counts as 3 parts, so I can do stock, hand guards, grip and trigger and be compliant. Some say the mags are easiest as was said above, but not a good idea, because the minute you drop that mag for a reload, the weapon is no longer compliant if you were relying on the mags to make it so, and that can lead to pain.....
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Old April 12, 2013, 02:06 PM   #7
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compliance doesn't have anything to do with the minimum US made parts, it has to do with maximum foreign parts allowed. dropping US parts does not remove compliance, adding foreign parts does.
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Old April 12, 2013, 02:24 PM   #8
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compliance doesn't have anything to do with the minimum US made parts, it has to do with maximum foreign parts allowed. dropping US parts does not remove compliance, adding foreign parts does.
But in a situation where you relied on the 3 US parts in a magazine in order to meet the requirement, if you dropped that mag and slapped in a surplus eastern bloc mag, you just became non compliant again. So relying on the mags for compliance is generally not a good option.
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Old April 12, 2013, 02:52 PM   #9
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that would be true, however the way you worded it it sounded like you meant the simple act of removing the mag would drop it from compliance.

and the magazine counts as 2 parts, not 3.
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Old April 12, 2013, 03:22 PM   #10
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Ah, maybe I did. Not my intention.

And mags can count as 3 parts. Body, follower, and floor plate I believe.
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Old April 12, 2013, 04:21 PM   #11
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sorry, I retract my statement, I've done most of my 922R research in regards to the SKS where the floor plate and magazine body are one piece, in an AK it would be 3 unless you got a magazine with a 1 piece body/floorplate.
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Old April 12, 2013, 08:32 PM   #12
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Heck it's all for educational purposes anyway right? We probably know more than the dunder-heads who wrote it anyway!
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Old April 12, 2013, 09:06 PM   #13
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on that we can agree.
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Old April 12, 2013, 10:31 PM   #14
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if you truly have a 100% factory norinco AK then it is already non compliant and needs to be remedied... at least that's how I understand it.
This actually isn't correct. In 100% factory configuration as in thumbhole stock and no muzzle attachments, a Mak 90 is not subject to 922(r) because it has none of the "evil" features that would make it unimportable under 925(d)(3). This is the whole reason that they used the thumbhole stock to begin with: without any "assault weapon" features it became "sporting" and thus could be imported. The Mak 90's importation was not ended because of the 1989 import ban, but rather because new trade rules in 1993 and because Norinco and Polytech AK models were specifically named in the now-defunct 1994 Federal AWB.

That being said, if any "assault weapon" features, including a separate pistol grip (i.e. one not attached to the stock) is added, the rifle will then become subject to 922(r) as it will have been modified to a configuration that would be banned from importation under 925(d)(3). The easiest "compliance" parts to change/add include the pistol grip, buttstock, handguards, magazine (counts as three parts: body, follower, and floorplate), and fire control group (also counts for three parts: hammer, trigger, and disconnector).

A factory-spec Mak-90 has 14 of the parts specified in 925(d)(3). If you add a pistol grip, you'll need to make sure that it's U.S.-made and also replace at least 4 other parts to get your count down to 10 (the Mak-90 doesn't technically have a pistol grip in factory configuration). Were it me, I'd use a U.S. made pistol grip, buttstock, fire control group, and handguard (you're actually compliant without the handguard, but you probably won't find a U.S. made stock and pistol grip to match the color of the factory handguard). At this point, you can still put the factory parts back in any time you like and you can still use whatever magazines you like. The main thing to remember about 922(r) is that it's not so much the number of U.S.-made parts that important, but the number of non-U.S.-made parts.

One other option if you want to get rid of the thumbhole stock without having to do a full conversion is to replace it with a "Dragunov-style" stock. These have a feel more like a regular pistol grip, but because the pistol grip is still attached to the stock they don't run afoul of 925(d)(3) and thus adding one to a Mak-90 wouldn't invoke 922(r).
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Old April 13, 2013, 05:13 AM   #15
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Has anyone ever been checked for 922r compliance? By whom?
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Old April 13, 2013, 10:44 AM   #16
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I do not know anyone personally that has had that happen. I know of no one else who owns that carbine either.

The question you have to ask yourself is, DYFL? ("Do You Feel Lucky" per the empty chairperson).

In my case, I would be fired if I had a mark on my record as my job requires a clean background (and yes they canned one guy who had not been convicted but charged in a very minor case)

At best you loose the carbine, at worst you are up on charges.

The better question is, for no loss to do it right why risk something stupid?

Webleymkv: Then I do have it right, the parts count includes the magazine and its legal magazine in or out as long as it does not have a non US made magazine?

The MAK has such a good group of parts that there is no gain to replace them (and worse, the replacements are worse functionally than what the carbine has)

Ego, a US made magazine gives you the count you need and the stocks that come from Deadwood come with the front grips. As you have to stain them yourself it would be better to do it as a set for appearance if you want it to look he same.

And yes they do have a low grade collector value (at this point, its going up fast) so you do want to keep all the old parts. 15 years from now it could make a huge difference in what you can get for the carbine and where you can sell it to.
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Old April 13, 2013, 08:51 PM   #17
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This actually isn't correct. In 100% factory configuration as in thumbhole stock and no muzzle attachments, a Mak 90 is not subject to 922(r) because it has none of the "evil" features that would make it unimportable under 925(d)(3). This is the whole reason that they used the thumbhole stock to begin with: without any "assault weapon" features it became "sporting" and thus could be imported. The Mak 90's importation was not ended because of the 1989 import ban, but rather because new trade rules in 1993 and because Norinco and Polytech AK models were specifically named in the now-defunct 1994 Federal AWB.

That being said, if any "assault weapon" features, including a separate pistol grip (i.e. one not attached to the stock) is added, the rifle will then become subject to 922(r) as it will have been modified to a configuration that would be banned from importation under 925(d)(3). The easiest "compliance" parts to change/add include the pistol grip, buttstock, handguards, magazine (counts as three parts: body, follower, and floorplate), and fire control group (also counts for three parts: hammer, trigger, and disconnector).

A factory-spec Mak-90 has 14 of the parts specified in 925(d)(3). If you add a pistol grip, you'll need to make sure that it's U.S.-made and also replace at least 4 other parts to get your count down to 10 (the Mak-90 doesn't technically have a pistol grip in factory configuration). Were it me, I'd use a U.S. made pistol grip, buttstock, fire control group, and handguard (you're actually compliant without the handguard, but you probably won't find a U.S. made stock and pistol grip to match the color of the factory handguard). At this point, you can still put the factory parts back in any time you like and you can still use whatever magazines you like. The main thing to remember about 922(r) is that it's not so much the number of U.S.-made parts that important, but the number of non-U.S.-made parts.

One other option if you want to get rid of the thumbhole stock without having to do a full conversion is to replace it with a "Dragunov-style" stock. These have a feel more like a regular pistol grip, but because the pistol grip is still attached to the stock they don't run afoul of 925(d)(3) and thus adding one to a Mak-90 wouldn't invoke 922(r).
Very clear and concise, thank you. (and 100% accurate)
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Old April 13, 2013, 08:57 PM   #18
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Has anyone ever been checked for 922r compliance? By whom?
I don't know of anyone personally, but it has happened I am sure. The thing is, all it would take is a phone call by a "concerned citizen" that you had a non compliant weapon and you are going to become the recipient of a visit by a 3 letter government agency very quickly, and that is never a good thing.

Best to be compliant and not worry.

RC20, you can use US made magazines or parts to become compliant, true. However, the minute you drop that mag and load in a eastern bloc mag, you are once again non compliant if those are the 3 primary parts you relied on to get around 922, so most feel it's not a good idea.
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Old April 14, 2013, 04:10 PM   #19
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Has anyone ever been checked for 922r compliance? By whom?
I don't know of anyone personally, but it has happened I am sure. The thing is, all it would take is a phone call by a "concerned citizen" that you had a non compliant weapon and you are going to become the recipient of a visit by a 3 letter government agency very quickly, and that is never a good thing.

Best to be compliant and not worry.
What "concerned citizen" is going to know the first thing about 922r compliance? Not trying to stir the pot, but this sounds like a pretty remote possibility. Has anyone ever been randomly checked at the range?
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Old April 14, 2013, 09:04 PM   #20
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spacecoast, are you willing to bet your expensive firearm, your ability to ever be licensed again, enormous fines, and possible jail time if someone does at some point question your compliance?

Better to be safe than sorry. All you need is a gun to malfunction and accidentally fire off two or three rounds at once, and you are done. I have seen that happen myself.
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Old April 15, 2013, 08:00 AM   #21
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Derius_T, not to worry, my AK is well within 922r compliance with at least 9 US-made parts (12 if you count the Tapco magazines I have in addition to one steel magazine of unknown origin) . I'm just trying to learn more about what mechanism(s) might be used to make such a check.

By the way, native Daytonian here...

Last edited by spacecoast; April 15, 2013 at 08:10 AM.
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Old April 15, 2013, 11:05 AM   #22
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DT check out Iron wood designs for an American made excelent quality chinese stock set for youre mac that will be 922 comp. then you can get the tapco g-2 fire control group. that should give you a nice triger to start with as they can be pretty good right out of the package. that will give you 6 parts right their. HTH
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Old April 15, 2013, 12:05 PM   #23
Derius_T
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Derius_T, not to worry, my AK is well within 922r compliance with at least 9 US-made parts (12 if you count the Tapco magazines I have in addition to one steel magazine of unknown origin) . I'm just trying to learn more about what mechanism(s) might be used to make such a check.

By the way, native Daytonian here...
Good to know. I'd hate to see anyone dinged for non compliance, especially with a nice custom AK.

I will be trying to get a group together later this summer to do some for fun competition shooting. I'll give you a holler when things come together!
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Old April 15, 2013, 12:07 PM   #24
Derius_T
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DT check out Iron wood designs for an American made excelent quality chinese stock set for youre mac that will be 922 comp. then you can get the tapco g-2 fire control group. that should give you a nice triger to start with as they can be pretty good right out of the package.
Thanks for the info. I have noticed the tapco triggers. Only problem is, the trigger in this AK factory is soooo sweet I doubt any aftermarket will be able to reproduce it.

The chinese FCG's were the best ever produced for any AK out there IMHO.
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Old April 17, 2013, 10:50 PM   #25
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I work for a large sporting goods chain and asked one of the ATFE guys auditing us about 922r. He basically said they have bigger fish to fry, it's a politician thing, and he couldn't care less how many U.S. or foreign parts are on a firearm.

Oh, and Derius...you a youngster on this forum brother.... ; )
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