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Old April 11, 2013, 10:56 AM   #26
Gaerek
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Glock is behind the times, pure and simple. They were innovators in the beginning, but they have been resting on their laurels and making fistfuls of cash on their reputation for reliability, and their huge following as a result of having such a large part of the police market. No one buys Glock for their recent innovation, and if they do, they are misinformed.
Yeah, I agree. I didn't buy the Gen 4 G19 because of any features it has over the Gen 3. I bought it because that was the only one the store had when I had cash in hand. Glock isn't going anywhere anytime soon. I'm sure they'll see the light soon enough, but by then, Shields and XDS in 9mm and .40 will have been out for a while, and Glock will play catch up. No one can deny the impact Glock had when they first introduced the G17 back in the 80's. Unfortunately, that's when all of their innovation really ended. Well, until they capitalized on the '94 AWB and introduced the G26/27.

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...a normal grip angle...
This is something that annoys me a bit whenever I see it. So, by normal, you mean the grip angle that JM Browning decided (arbitrarily) was the best for everyone back in 1911? Technically speaking, the "Luger" (or in this case, Glock) grip angle is actually more ergonomic for most people. If you hold your hand in a fist straight out with your thumb forward and level....that's the Glock grip angle.

Having said that, most people grew up shooting their father's, and grandfather's 1911's and BHP's, and major manufacturers tended to copy that because it's what people were used to. I'm not knocking 1911's or people who prefer that particular grip angle. I know for me, my natural point of aim has Glocks perfectly level, whereas on a gun with a "normal" grip angle, the front sight disappears, and I have to physically raise the gun. I still shoot 1911's just fine.

In the end, it's all about preference. I just think that "normal" needs to be defined. There are certainly a lot of Glocks out there for the grip angle to not be considered "normal." Different? Certainly. But it isn't abnormal. An abnormal grip angle would be like the grip angle on my old paintball gun...an Angel IR3 (that's actually the same one I had, incidentally). They called it a 90 degree grip. Granted, the purpose was it made it easier to hold the gun close to you, but if it were on a modern firearm, it would be abnormal.
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Old April 11, 2013, 11:01 AM   #27
TunnelRat
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If you hold your hand in a fist straight out with your thumb forward and level....that's the Glock grip angle.
Umm, not for me. Glocks for me tend to point high. HKs tend to point low. And there are lots in between. I can make the angle work though after practice. Like you said a lot of it depends on past experience. (BTW I actually had a Glock before a 1911).

I would agree with you that defining a "normal" angle is arbitrary. Obviously a lot of folks really like Glocks so the angle must work for them. For those that it doesn't there are a lot of options out there too.
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Old April 11, 2013, 11:13 AM   #28
btmj
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This is something that annoys me a bit whenever I see it. So, by normal, you mean the grip angle that JM Browning decided (arbitrarily) was the best for everyone back in 1911? Technically speaking, the "Luger" (or in this case, Glock) grip angle is actually more ergonomic for most people. If you hold your hand in a fist straight out with your thumb forward and level....that's the Glock grip angle.
If the shooting arm is straight (as in weaver or chapman stance), the glock/luger grip angle feels more natural to me.

If the elbows are slightly bent, the grip needs to be a bit more vertical. At least for me.
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Old April 11, 2013, 11:37 AM   #29
Gaerek
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Umm, not for me. Glocks for me tend to point high. HKs tend to point low. And there are lots in between. I can make the angle work though after practice. Like you said a lot of it depends on past experience. (BTW I actually had a Glock before a 1911).
I did say this, prior to the "grip angle test" I outlined.

Quote:
Technically speaking, the "Luger" (or in this case, Glock) grip angle is actually more ergonomic for most people.
Everyone is different, of course. I just have a problem with the terms "normal" or "standard" grip angle. They're arbitrary terms that have no real basis. It insinuates that the "Luger/Glock" grip angle is abnormal, or wrong in someway. Personally, I just refer to them as the Glock grip angle, and the Browning grip angle. Neither is wrong or right, they're just different.
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Old April 11, 2013, 01:03 PM   #30
ScotchMan
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This is something that annoys me a bit whenever I see it. So, by normal, you mean the grip angle that JM Browning decided (arbitrarily) was the best for everyone back in 1911? Technically speaking, the "Luger" (or in this case, Glock) grip angle is actually more ergonomic for most people. If you hold your hand in a fist straight out with your thumb forward and level....that's the Glock grip angle.
So, I chose the word "normal" carefully. Normal means that which is the most common. No one is shooting Lugers these days, and every other major manufacturer has the 1911 grip angle. For me, Glocks point high until I get used to them. Then everything else shoots low. It sort of reminds me of Apple computers vs. Windows. Macs are great if thats all you use, but if you get used to it and have to use Windows, it can be difficult if Apple is all you know.

It is completely possible Glocks are more ergonomic on a theoretical basis, but since I am never going to shoot Glocks exclusively, it is a downside for me. I do believe Apple's OSX is superior to Windows, or at least it was for all of the Windows XP days. But I never standardized on it, because I needed to use Windows sometimes, too.

I think an innovative approach would be to offer both angles. They've toyed with offering normal and "slim" grip profiles in the past, why not have a G19 and a G19A where the angle is the standard 1911 angle? Even more innovative (but challenging) would be a design that let the user adjust the angle.

(Ironically, this is exactly what Apple did, by letting users install Windows on their computers and boot up whichever operating system they wanted. Great analogy? Or best analogy ever?)
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Old April 12, 2013, 08:26 AM   #31
Brit
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When Mr. Glock started to manufacture his first pistol, the Glock 17, all of his parts were not made in house.

As he became bigger, sold more, he started to make parts, like springs, and cold hammer formed barrels, that he used to farm out.

The plant in a small town in Austria, Deutch Wagram, became too small, he bought land built an other plant (Barrel plant?) the electricity supply Authority were going to charge him a fortune to pipe in power!

He bought his own power plant from Japan, I was told he even sells his surplus!

They can not catch up on their orders. Why change? Ten round magazines, they made those.
My philosophy on magazine capacity, if any person, ever needed a bunch of rounds to fight with a pistol, I want a bunch of 9mm rounds ready to go, no reload, in my pistol, hence a Glock 19, with a spare mag, a Glock 17 one.
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