The Firing Line Forums

Go Back   The Firing Line Forums > Hogan's Alley > Tactics and Training

Closed Thread
 
Thread Tools
Old May 17, 2013, 03:32 PM   #76
Buzzcook
Senior Member
 
Join Date: November 29, 2007
Location: Everett, WA
Posts: 5,604
Ethics in education is result driven. What is the best outcome for the student.

Most women's only classes are introductory classes. Those that seek further instruction usually go on to coed intermediary classes.

There are enough instructors here to make an empirical study. Compare women who have gone through segregated classes to those who have gone through mixed sex classes.

What measurable standards would you use? What subjective observations?

If women, who attend segregated classes, do better in subsequent classes than their peers who took coed classes, then woman's only classes are ethical.
Buzzcook is offline  
Old May 18, 2013, 08:15 PM   #77
ThatBeardedGuy
Member
 
Join Date: May 16, 2013
Posts: 84
I'm probably a little late to this discussion, and certainly less qualified than many of the shooters in here, but my two cents on teaching a women's only course is as follows:

I've taught the last three or four girls I've dated how to shoot, including my wife who, being from Canada and not really a gun person, had no bad habits to break and took the training in stride.

Now, what always seems to happen is that men gravitate towards women on the range. For the most part, it's subconscious, but I've had men literally try to hijack a one-on-one session with a female I was training, not because of anything they thought I was teaching was wrong, but simply because every guy with a pulse feels at least a tiny desire to impress the women in his immediate vicinity with his knowledge and experience. It's probably one of those urges that goes back to when we invented fire.

Women aren't dumb when it comes to this, and they see through it. When you're learning to shoot, you don't need the sort of distractions that come with anyone but the trainer observing you shoot.

Nothing would irritate me more if I was a woman learning to shoot than some random guy approaching me with unwanted advice simply because of my gender.

Now, military does it integrated, but there's a lot more formality in a military course of fire and the lane safeties are NCOs who are responsible for correcting the deficiencies of multiple shooters within their section of the course.

I'm not judging all guys who shoot in mixed company, but there seems to be a tendency for unsolicited (and sometimes incorrect) advice on the range where women are concerned.

Having an all-women's course where you don't have to deal with that is a wonderful idea. If you're running an integrated course, make sure all your students are there to learn, and make sure they know you're the instructor and that they are not responsible for making on-the-spot corrections for your female students.

Otherwise they'd be teaching the course, not taking it.
ThatBeardedGuy is offline  
Old May 18, 2013, 08:27 PM   #78
Vanya
Staff
 
Join Date: July 7, 2008
Location: Upper midwest
Posts: 3,809
Welcome to TFL, Bearded One!

Those are very good points, and it's nice to have them come from a "regular guy."

Several of our women members have complained about this behavior at one time or another, and you're right -- it's not OK, whether a woman is taking a class, learning from a friend, or just getting in some practice on her own.
__________________
"Once the writer in every individual comes to life (and that time is not far off), we are in for an age of universal deafness and lack of understanding."
(Milan Kundera, Book of Laughter and Forgetting, 1980)
Vanya is offline  
Old May 18, 2013, 08:43 PM   #79
ThatBeardedGuy
Member
 
Join Date: May 16, 2013
Posts: 84
Thanks for the welcome! I'm definitely not a shooting instructor, nor would I call myself one, but I can make guns go bang, and usually they hit the target. Or someone else's target. Doesn't matter. They hit a target.

I kid, but I appreciate that willingness to hear a regular guy's perspective on it.
__________________
TXARNG: 2007 - Present

"We're gonna turn left!!" - NASCAR, in a nutshell.
ThatBeardedGuy is offline  
Old May 19, 2013, 10:27 AM   #80
Glenn E. Meyer
Staff
 
Join Date: November 17, 2000
Posts: 15,550
McCaughey - Real Knockouts: The Physical Feminism of Women's Self-Defense.

1998 book, and the author made the point about the creeps coming over at the range.
__________________
NRA, TSRA, IDPA, NTI, Polite Soc.
http://www.teddytactical.com/archive...05_Feature.htm
Being an Academic Shooter
http://www.teddytactical.com/archive...11_Feature.htm
Being an Active Shooter
Glenn E. Meyer is offline  
Old May 19, 2013, 10:36 AM   #81
Nittespanker
Junior member
 
Join Date: May 9, 2013
Posts: 70
Men bothering women is not unique to the gun range or a shooting instruction class, it goes on everywhere there is mixed company.

Women do see through it and most women find it annoying.
Nittespanker is offline  
Old May 19, 2013, 05:53 PM   #82
SgtLumpy
Senior Member
 
Join Date: January 2, 2013
Posts: 779
I"m a little confused, check - a lot confused, about the suggestion that teaching women separate from men is "unethical". I don't see an ethics conflict in the least.

Guns, guitars, auto mechanics, needle point, I would not teach any subject the same if I had all men, all women, all teenagers, all Japanese speaking people, all gang bangers.

The primary job of any teacher in any subject is NOT to present a bunch of required material that students can regurgitate later. It's to figure out what makes each student "tick" and tailor the pedagogy to that set of parameters.

Teaching a group of 11 year olds how to change a flat tire would be totally different than teaching a group of 30 year olds. Likewise, teaching gun safety or marksmanship to a group of 25 year old women would be totally different than teaching a group of 25 year old men. There's no "ethics" question there, in any of the examples, including guns.

I suggest that the only time "unethical" comes to the surface is when you DO NOT account for the differences, backgounds, learning styles of women vs men, kids vs adults, teens vs people from mars etc.


Sgt Lumpy
SgtLumpy is offline  
Old May 19, 2013, 08:33 PM   #83
Jammer Six
Senior Member
 
Join Date: April 3, 2005
Location: Seattle
Posts: 827
How do you account for the differences?
__________________
"Huh?" --Jammer Six, 1998
Jammer Six is offline  
Old May 19, 2013, 08:38 PM   #84
Nittespanker
Junior member
 
Join Date: May 9, 2013
Posts: 70
In college the material is presented for you to learn and the age and sex of the students vary greatly. It's all taught the same way and its up to the student to learn it. Shooting a gun in self defense is not that complicated. I've seen women out shoot plenty of men. Your not trying to qualify them for seal team 6 for Christs sake.
Nittespanker is offline  
Old May 19, 2013, 08:51 PM   #85
ThatBeardedGuy
Member
 
Join Date: May 16, 2013
Posts: 84
Quote:
Men bothering women is not unique to the gun range or a shooting instruction class, it goes on everywhere there is mixed company.
That's certainly true, but I'm limited the scope of this discussion to firearms training, particularly beginner's firearms training, where a lot of women are taking somewhat furtive steps into a world that's dominated by men more than most.

Once you start hitting intermediate and advanced levels of training with firearms, going coed is less of a problem because the women attending the course have a solid, professionally-taught grasp of fundamentals.

The point really is to limit the introduction of half-baked advice to women shooters by (usually) well-meaning men, but really, this cuts the same way with a lot of new male shooters as well.

I think some women might find this viewpoint sexist, but I echo the belief above that you select the most effective training methodology for the group you're training. I wouldn't use the same methodology in a beginner's class (assuming I ever choose to become a firearms instructor) as I would in an Army Primary Marksmanship Instruction module, because I can assume soldiers at least know which end the bullets come out of.

Well, usually, anyway.
__________________
TXARNG: 2007 - Present

"We're gonna turn left!!" - NASCAR, in a nutshell.
ThatBeardedGuy is offline  
Old May 19, 2013, 11:33 PM   #86
Sleuth
Senior Member
 
Join Date: September 27, 2002
Location: Arizona
Posts: 445
And, all the soldiers will be using the same firearms. I had the same situation at our academy, where everyone learned on the issue pistol. The down side is one size does NOT fit all.
__________________
Sleuth
Sleuth is offline  
Old May 20, 2013, 07:36 PM   #87
ThatBeardedGuy
Member
 
Join Date: May 16, 2013
Posts: 84
Quote:
And, all the soldiers will be using the same firearms. I had the same situation at our academy, where everyone learned on the issue pistol. The down side is one size does NOT fit all.
Very true. Standardized firearms help in some ways and hurt in others. The M16A2 is a lot of rifle with a long stock, and some of my female shooters have had problems getting a good stock-weld, especially with the weird interplay between the Kevlar helmet and the hair.

Which is why I insist that soldiers kit up at home or in their barrack's rooms and make sure their equipment is set well.

Next to that, teaching civilian classes where you can really milk "shooter's preference" for all it's worth is helpful. Females can use rifles and kit more suited to them ergonomically.

But getting back to methodology, women beginning in the science of shooting may need a slightly different approach. It's not that they make inferior shooters. Indeed, my wife can run my 1911 as well as I can and can even out-group me on a good day. I chalk this up to her ability not only to listen but APPLY the fundamentals she's learned.

I leave the exact nuts and bolts of that methodology to more qualified instructors, because I'm a good example of the Army letting just ANYONE with stripes run a PMI class.
__________________
TXARNG: 2007 - Present

"We're gonna turn left!!" - NASCAR, in a nutshell.
ThatBeardedGuy is offline  
Old May 20, 2013, 08:14 PM   #88
Sleuth
Senior Member
 
Join Date: September 27, 2002
Location: Arizona
Posts: 445
Part of the "women learn differently" is that when they come to the first class, they don't think they already know how to shoot. Thus they accept instruction readily, not trying to unlearn what dad, or their next door neighbor, or a police officer(who can barely qualify him/herself), or all three, has told them.

The downside to civilian classes is that many of the women have been 'gifted' completely unsuitable guns. To wit:
12 Gauge 36" barreled shotgun
.25 Raven pistol
.22 micro revolver
1920's Spanish made .32/380 semi autos
and the winner is:
a 5'0", 90 pound, 65 year old woman who had never fired any gun, with a Taurus Judge.

This leads to my usual comment:
"His heart was in the right place, but ....... and gun stores take trade-ins."
__________________
Sleuth
Sleuth is offline  
Old May 20, 2013, 08:23 PM   #89
ThatBeardedGuy
Member
 
Join Date: May 16, 2013
Posts: 84
Quote:
Part of the "women learn differently" is that when they come to the first class, they don't think they already know how to shoot. Thus they accept instruction readily, not trying to unlearn what dad, or their next door neighbor, or a police officer(who can barely qualify him/herself), or all three, has told them.
Oh God yeah. In Basic Training, the best shooters tend to be the ones who've never seen a weapon before in their lives. They just shut up and absorb the training.

When I taught my wife, I spent all the time teaching, instead of asking, "Where the heck did you learn that?"

As to your list of firearms... that's just... I don't even know. There's certainly something to be said for teaching equipment selection. With today's technology in bullet design, most people would be well-served with a regular 9mm Para.
__________________
TXARNG: 2007 - Present

"We're gonna turn left!!" - NASCAR, in a nutshell.
ThatBeardedGuy is offline  
Old May 20, 2013, 10:15 PM   #90
Frank Ettin
Staff
 
Join Date: November 23, 2005
Location: California - San Francisco
Posts: 6,538
Folks the focus is teaching private citizens. The way things are done in the military might not necessarily be the best model.
__________________
"It is long been a principle of ours that one is no more armed because he has possession of a firearm than he is a musician because he owns a piano. There is no point in having a gun if you are not capable of using it skillfully." -- Jeff Cooper
Frank Ettin is offline  
Old May 21, 2013, 05:06 AM   #91
ThatBeardedGuy
Member
 
Join Date: May 16, 2013
Posts: 84
Quote:
Folks the focus is teaching private citizens. The way things are done in the military might not necessarily be the best model.
That's more or less the point I'm trying to make when I said this:

Quote:
Now, military does it integrated, but there's a lot more formality in a military course of fire and the lane safeties are NCOs who are responsible for correcting the deficiencies of multiple shooters within their section of the course.
It's a formalized session where shooters don't really lean over and try to correct each other on-the-spot.

I'm not trying to push the military model. I don't even think it would be possible to make such a model work with regular people.
__________________
TXARNG: 2007 - Present

"We're gonna turn left!!" - NASCAR, in a nutshell.
ThatBeardedGuy is offline  
Old May 21, 2013, 05:12 AM   #92
ThatBeardedGuy
Member
 
Join Date: May 16, 2013
Posts: 84
I went on to say that the military model assumes a more or less common level of proficiency with one specific weapon and for one specific type of range.

You can't make that assumption with private citizens.

Indeed, I'm for different training methodologies for different groups of people.
__________________
TXARNG: 2007 - Present

"We're gonna turn left!!" - NASCAR, in a nutshell.
ThatBeardedGuy is offline  
Old May 24, 2013, 11:36 PM   #93
Rumpelhardt
Member
 
Join Date: April 29, 2010
Location: Maine
Posts: 31
I'm a bit confused here. Is the original poster teaching a class on the mechanics of shooting a firearm or is he teaching a class on the use of firearms for self defense? If the former I can see his point. The basics of firing a weapon are the same regardless of gender. If it is the later I could see the benefit gender specific classes.
Rumpelhardt is offline  
Old May 25, 2013, 12:46 AM   #94
Jammer Six
Senior Member
 
Join Date: April 3, 2005
Location: Seattle
Posts: 827
I teach most levels of handgun, from intro (or basic, the terms depend on who's paying me) through self defense. Both NRA or Cooper-style, although there are things I won't tolerate anymore in both curriculums.

There are things on the high end that I don't teach. No long guns, no transition, no infantry squad techniques, no law enforcement.

This thread has convinced me that the stereotypes against women are far more widespread and ingrained far deeper than I ever imagined.

In my naiveté, I thought it was a surface problem, more a problem of appearance than actual belief.
__________________
"Huh?" --Jammer Six, 1998
Jammer Six is offline  
Old May 25, 2013, 07:44 AM   #95
Glenn E. Meyer
Staff
 
Join Date: November 17, 2000
Posts: 15,550
So you have realized through self-examination that you are suffering from benevolent sexism at the least? That is progress, Jammer.
__________________
NRA, TSRA, IDPA, NTI, Polite Soc.
http://www.teddytactical.com/archive...05_Feature.htm
Being an Academic Shooter
http://www.teddytactical.com/archive...11_Feature.htm
Being an Active Shooter
Glenn E. Meyer is offline  
Old May 25, 2013, 09:46 AM   #96
Vanya
Staff
 
Join Date: July 7, 2008
Location: Upper midwest
Posts: 3,809
Quote:
Originally Posted by SgtLumpy View Post
I suggest that the only time "unethical" comes to the surface is when you DO NOT account for the differences, backgounds, learning styles of women vs men, kids vs adults, teens vs people from mars etc.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jammer Six View Post
How do you account for the differences?
One accounts for the differences by
  • Acknowledging that they exist.
  • Determining what they are.
  • Learning how they affect students' needs with respect to learning the material at hand.
  • Tailoring the instruction to address the needs of each student.
This process, by itself, doesn't dictate separate classes, but it suggests that where the differences are great enough, it's worth doing the experiment and finding out if they are worthwhile. The criteria for "worthwhile" differ depending on the population, but should always be empirical: what works to produce the best outcomes for as many students as possible. If you think what you're teaching is important, the latter -- making the material accessible to the maximum number of people -- weighs very heavily in ethical terms.

If the subject is a matter of survival, and a particular group of people is discouraged from learning it because of arbitrary limits on the ways it's taught, those limits are severely unethical.

Adults have the right to chose what works best for them. The fact that many women prefer women-only classes means one of two things:
  1. Either they find them more suited to their needs.
  2. Or they don't know what's best for them and are unqualified to decide.
The latter view is offensively patronizing.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jammer Six
This thread has convinced me that the stereotypes against women are far more widespread and ingrained far deeper than I ever imagined.
As far as I can see, you're pretty much the only person in this thread who is perpetuating stereotypes against women, the chief of which is #2, above.
__________________
"Once the writer in every individual comes to life (and that time is not far off), we are in for an age of universal deafness and lack of understanding."
(Milan Kundera, Book of Laughter and Forgetting, 1980)

Last edited by Vanya; May 25, 2013 at 09:59 AM.
Vanya is offline  
Old May 25, 2013, 11:46 AM   #97
Glenn E. Meyer
Staff
 
Join Date: November 17, 2000
Posts: 15,550
Knowing professional scholars of sexism in the psychological community and professional trainers concerned with women's issues in the firearms world - I say - Here, Here to Vanya's analyses.
__________________
NRA, TSRA, IDPA, NTI, Polite Soc.
http://www.teddytactical.com/archive...05_Feature.htm
Being an Academic Shooter
http://www.teddytactical.com/archive...11_Feature.htm
Being an Active Shooter
Glenn E. Meyer is offline  
Old May 25, 2013, 11:51 AM   #98
Frank Ettin
Staff
 
Join Date: November 23, 2005
Location: California - San Francisco
Posts: 6,538
I agree with Glenn.

Vanya, that was an excellent analysis and overview.
__________________
"It is long been a principle of ours that one is no more armed because he has possession of a firearm than he is a musician because he owns a piano. There is no point in having a gun if you are not capable of using it skillfully." -- Jeff Cooper
Frank Ettin is offline  
Old May 25, 2013, 12:19 PM   #99
Lost Sheep
Senior Member
 
Join Date: January 24, 2009
Location: Anchorage Alaska
Posts: 2,965
Quote:
Originally Posted by Vanya
One accounts for the differences by

Acknowledging that they exist.
Determining what they are.
Learning how they affect students' needs with respect to learning the material at hand.
Tailoring the instruction to address the needs of each student.

This process, by itself, doesn't dictate separate classes, but it suggests that where the differences are great enough, it's worth doing the experiment and finding out if they are worthwhile.
Very perceptive and very true.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Vanya
Adults have the right to chose what works best for them. The fact that many women prefer women-only classes means one of two things:

1. Either they find them more suited to their needs.
2. Or they don't know what's best for them and are unqualified to decide.
I wonder if there is a third?

Studies of elementary-school age through high school girls in mixed-gender classes show that class participation drops during those years. No such dropoff occurs in girls-only classes. This suggests that the presence of boys suppresses girls' participation.

Feel free to speculate if the reason is that boys tend to be more assertive/spontaneous/competitive during those developmental years or girls tend to be more retiring/cooperative during that time in their lives. I think we have ample evidence that those developmental differences are real, whether they are fueled by hormones or imposed by society, the trajectory of the gender-based personality development endures for many women over the rest of their lives.

I speculate that many women may prefer female-only classes because male presence/participation still has a suppressive effect on them and their female classmates.

Clearly, students who produce questions and lines of thought do lead instructors into areas of the curriculum (while still not away from the syllabus) that may not match the needs or interests of students who do not speak up in class as much. And that is not gender-based. Older students might prefer elders-only classes as much as female students might prefer female-only classes.

I wonder if there is a fourth?

Some women simply don't want to associate with men. Prejudices cut both ways.

Just wondering.

Lost Sheep
Lost Sheep is offline  
Old May 25, 2013, 12:54 PM   #100
Vanya
Staff
 
Join Date: July 7, 2008
Location: Upper midwest
Posts: 3,809
Lost Sheep, I think you're right on all counts. In the interest of keeping things simple, I didn't, in my last post, want to get into details of why women-only classes meet the needs of so many, but the reasons you mention would be right up there on my list.

It's well worth reminding everyone of those things. Thanks.
__________________
"Once the writer in every individual comes to life (and that time is not far off), we are in for an age of universal deafness and lack of understanding."
(Milan Kundera, Book of Laughter and Forgetting, 1980)
Vanya is offline  
Closed Thread

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 04:36 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
This site and contents, including all posts, Copyright © 1998-2014 S.W.A.T. Magazine
Copyright Complaints: Please direct DMCA Takedown Notices to the registered agent: thefiringline.com
Contact Us
Page generated in 0.13466 seconds with 7 queries