The Firing Line Forums

Go Back   The Firing Line Forums > Hogan's Alley > Handguns: General Handgun Forum

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old April 11, 2013, 08:03 PM   #26
shouldazagged
Senior Member
 
Join Date: February 17, 2013
Location: Louisville, KY, USA
Posts: 273
Mouse gun? I've pocket-carried a 21 ounce steel J-frame .38 Special daily for over twelve years, with no problems. I feel adequately protected with the 640 and the old FBI load, plus one or two Bianchi Speed Strip reloads.

But then, as a friend of mine once put it, "I stopped running when they quit chasing me."
__________________
"Don't let macho be your epitaph."
---Ed Lovette
shouldazagged is offline  
Old April 11, 2013, 09:34 PM   #27
arizona98tj
Senior Member
 
Join Date: December 10, 2007
Location: Arizona
Posts: 907
Quote:
.....and a larger grip change is often recommended because the magnum mini tends to jump out of the hand using the small birds-eye grips.
I can't agree with that statement....I have a NAA Pug (.22 mag) as well as the aforementioned Sidewinder (.22Mag & .22LR). With the factory grips I experience no hand jumping behavior. I've seen people (new shooters especially) have more issues hanging on to a full sized handgun.

Deaf Smith....the Sidewinder is fun. It is not as forgiving on the brand of .22Mag ammo as is the Pug. It prefers a lighter weight bullet and not so much the more seemingly popular heavier grain loads. I guess in the long run, it makes little difference as it will be pushed into use just before I make a grab for my knife. If I get down to the .22Mag and my knife, things have gone way wrong.
__________________
stu-offroad.com
Largest Jeep TJ project site on the web!
(now with guns)
arizona98tj is offline  
Old April 12, 2013, 10:05 AM   #28
Buckdown
Member
 
Join Date: April 8, 2013
Posts: 26
Keltec pf9 is plenty accurate at self defense ranges.Its obvious the shooter complaining about 9mm cartridge accuracy needs to be taught how to shoot correctly and put in more time on the practice range.
Buckdown is offline  
Old April 12, 2013, 11:01 AM   #29
kcub
Senior Member
 
Join Date: October 24, 2010
Location: Austin, Texas
Posts: 1,795
I know the pocket 9s are"combat accurate".

I come from a time when rifles that didn't shoot into an inch at 100 and handguns that wouldn't do the same at 25 were routinely sold down the river.
kcub is online now  
Old April 12, 2013, 11:08 AM   #30
Microgunner
Senior Member
 
Join Date: March 6, 2006
Location: Central Florida
Posts: 2,827
Some years back we were testing Winchester .45ACP Black Talon into water.
We fired rounds from a 5" Colt Government and the rounds opened fully.
We fired rounds from a 4.25" Colt Commander and the rounds only opened about half as much.
We fired rounds froms a 3.5" Colt Officer's ACP and the rounds were barely deformed.

The short barrels had a great effect on Black Talon .45ACP.
__________________
Proud NRA Patron Member
Microgunner is online now  
Old April 12, 2013, 11:40 AM   #31
Ben Dover
Senior Member
 
Join Date: April 11, 2013
Location: High up in the Rocky Moun
Posts: 195
On those occasions when I find it impractical to to be armed with a large sidearm, I often carry a Beretta 950 in .25 calibre.

Since I have expended sufficient time and effort to consistently hit the head at seven yards, I feel comfortable with this little gun. The Hornady XTP ammunition that I load it with registers 950 FPS on a chronograph. Speer's Gold Dot ammunition is only slightly less powerful at 875 FPS.

In my opinion, it fits in well with the three basic rules of self defense.

1. Avoid trouble if possible
2. Have a weapon and be prepared to use it if necessary.
3. Possess the necessary skill to use it effectively.

Obviously, should it become necessary to actually engage another human being, I would much prefer to be armed with a very powerful sidearm like my 9MM SIG-Sauer. Unfortunately, that is often not practical.
__________________
The soldier's pack is not so heavy a burden as the prisoner's chains. Dwight Eisenhower
Ben Dover is offline  
Old April 12, 2013, 09:13 PM   #32
horselips
Senior Member
 
Join Date: February 26, 2013
Posts: 125
My EDC gun is a NAA Mini Revolver in .22WMR with the really long way-out- there 1 5/8" barrel. I have no trouble controlling it even when rapid firing, and 5 shot accuracy at 7 yards is well within a 3 inch circle with Federal 50 Grain HPs.

This ain't your father's .22Mag. Nowadays, Winchester, Hornady, Federal and others have developed loads specifically tailored for mini revolvers, producing thousand feet-per-second velocities out of one-two inch barrels with bullets delivering good penetration and reliable expansion. You do NOT want to get hit with one.

Because this weapon is so easilly controllable, I can put 5 aimed shots out there about as fast as anyone trying to control an over-powered mini-auto chambered for a cartridge all out of proportion to its weight and grip size. I do not feel undergunned.

But, most important,because the Mini Revolver doesn't require any special wardrobe accomodation like a belt or holster, my NAA will tell you it never, ever, gets left at home. That's something very few carry guns can say.

Last edited by horselips; April 12, 2013 at 09:21 PM.
horselips is offline  
Old April 14, 2013, 08:38 PM   #33
WESHOOT2
Senior Member
 
Join Date: February 20, 1999
Location: home on the range; Vermont (Caspian country)
Posts: 13,928
wee little guns

My always is a 22LR NAA mini.
Its back-up is a 22LR Taurus PT22.
I think wee guns are best served by the 22LR cartridge.

Anything bigger might as well be a J-frame in 38 Special (NOT 357 Magnum), or bigger.
__________________
.
"all my ammo is mostly retired factory ammo"
WESHOOT2 is offline  
Old April 15, 2013, 01:04 PM   #34
simonrichter
Senior Member
 
Join Date: December 3, 2011
Location: Austria
Posts: 326
Quote:
I think wee guns are best served by the 22LR cartridge
That's exactly what I suspected, however the markets are talking a diferent language, where its just a matter of time until the first .45 under 5inches overall lenght is presented...
__________________
"Get off of my lawn!" Walt Kowalski
. Savage Axis XP (.223 Rem)
. G17 3rd gen. (9mm)
. Taurus PT22 PLY (.22lr)
simonrichter is offline  
Old April 15, 2013, 07:01 PM   #35
kcub
Senior Member
 
Join Date: October 24, 2010
Location: Austin, Texas
Posts: 1,795
Wee guns. Sounds like what you might use on a leprechaun who's a wee bit stingy with his lucky charms.
kcub is online now  
Old April 15, 2013, 07:11 PM   #36
Obambulate
Senior Member
 
Join Date: February 22, 2011
Posts: 315
.22 Magnum is a good defensive round, especially in warm climates where clothing is thinner and lighter. The NAA minis are a good choice for an "everywhere" gun that won't drag you down. Good quality and reasonable prices.
Obambulate is offline  
Old April 16, 2013, 05:30 AM   #37
simonrichter
Senior Member
 
Join Date: December 3, 2011
Location: Austria
Posts: 326
Quote:
Sounds like what you might use on a leprechaun who's a wee bit stingy with his lucky charms.
Well, to begin with I'm from Europe, saying that the common intruder and burglar is usually not heavily armed around here. However, when the BG comes after me with a crow bar or a knife, I prefer the tiny .22 I might also carry when I'm relaxing at home over the full-sized 9mm that is in the other room for sure...
__________________
"Get off of my lawn!" Walt Kowalski
. Savage Axis XP (.223 Rem)
. G17 3rd gen. (9mm)
. Taurus PT22 PLY (.22lr)
simonrichter is offline  
Old April 16, 2013, 08:22 AM   #38
BoomieMCT
Senior Member
 
Join Date: August 5, 2010
Posts: 211
Quote:
The question is: How significant is the drop of ME with a barrel, say, half the lenght?
http://ballisticsbytheinch.com/calibers.html
BoomieMCT is offline  
Old April 16, 2013, 10:47 AM   #39
simonrichter
Senior Member
 
Join Date: December 3, 2011
Location: Austria
Posts: 326
Great, thanks!

A lot of calculation to convert all these figures to metrics. The real interesting item is the ENERGY, after all, not the velocity. Since I don't go along well with the imperial system, I have to convert grains to gram and feet to meters before I can get to the energy.

Great site, anyway!
__________________
"Get off of my lawn!" Walt Kowalski
. Savage Axis XP (.223 Rem)
. G17 3rd gen. (9mm)
. Taurus PT22 PLY (.22lr)
simonrichter is offline  
Old April 16, 2013, 12:25 PM   #40
stormin1155
Member
 
Join Date: October 22, 2012
Location: Iowa
Posts: 20
There are definately pros and cons to having a more potent round for a pocket pistol. In general I think people put too much weight on the caliber of a gun. I say this for two reasons.

First of all, in about 92% of self-defense situations where a gun is drawn, no shots are fired. Just showing the gun stops the threat. In that case the caliber of the gun plays a very small, if any, role. How does the bad guy know if that is a .380, a 9mm, or a .40, or does he even really care? Bottom line is he doesn't want to get shot, so stops what he is doing and runs. So, in the overwhelming majority of cases, having a gun.... ANY gun, is the important part.

The second reason is something that I think we all agree on, and that is, if shots are fired, the ability to shoot the gun well, trumps the caliber almost every time. A couple of well placed shots from a .22 are much more effective that a miss from a .45.
stormin1155 is offline  
Old April 16, 2013, 06:23 PM   #41
Samopal
Junior Member
 
Join Date: November 24, 2008
Location: Michigan
Posts: 8
I'm probably one of the last supporters of the .32 Auto. FMJ loads out of pocket pistols get 13"+ of penetration consistently, and aren't shot placement and penetration the most important things in a defensive shooting? Given the FBI recommends 12" of penetration for handguns, a .32 Auto slug will kill someone just as dead as a 9mm, .40 S&W or .45 Auto if you learn to shoot it.

Another unpopular opinion I hold is that .45 Auto sucks somethin' awful out of short barrels. Velocity, energy and penetration plummet and reliability (in most subcompact .45 Auto platforms) suffers. You lose capacity and gain absolutely ****-all sticking .45 Auto in a tiny gun where a higher pressure, faster-burning cartridge like 9x19mm, .40 S&W or .357 SIG works just fine.

That brings me to my last point. .357 SIG is an absolute godsend to the subcompact auto market. A standard defensive 125gr .357 load performs identically to .357 Magnum out of those 2" snub revolvers that are so popular. Due to the faster-burning powder in the .357 SIG it also wastes less power and results in less recoil and report while getting the same results.

Let's use a Glock 33 are our auto example, eh? A G33 is about the same size as a snub-nosed .357 Mag J-frame or SP101, but lighter, and packs double the capacity (9+1 vs 5). So you have a lighter weapon of practically the same size with double the capacity, the same ballistic performance, and less recoil, noise and flash.

Here are some links regarding ballistic data for the .357 SIG and .357 Mag:
http://www.ballisticsbytheinch.com/357sig.html
http://www.ballisticsbytheinch.com/357mag.html
__________________
You can never be too rich, too good-looking, or too-well armed.
Samopal is offline  
Old April 16, 2013, 06:47 PM   #42
darkgael
Senior Member
 
Join Date: February 9, 2006
Location: Homes in Brooklyn, NY and in Pennsylvania.
Posts: 4,222
Mice



About the little .25
Quote:
The Hornady XTP ammunition that I load it with registers 950 FPS on a chronograph. Speer's Gold Dot ammunition is only slightly less powerful at 875 FPS.
I kno that it goes bang but my feeling is that the little gun is best served by the standard 50 grain FMJ at 770+ fps. The newer rounds go faster but shoot a lighter bulletin at 35 grains. The 50 gr bullet has slightly more power even going slower.
Pete
__________________
"Only hunting and mountain climbing are sports. The rest are just games." - R.Ruark
NRA Life Member

Last edited by darkgael; April 16, 2013 at 06:53 PM.
darkgael is offline  
Old April 16, 2013, 08:31 PM   #43
bonefamily
Senior Member
 
Join Date: October 28, 2012
Location: central Ohio
Posts: 304
Quote:
I'm probably one of the last supporters of the .32 Auto.
You're not alone. I like the .32 acp as well.
__________________
Bryan
bonefamily is offline  
Old April 16, 2013, 08:53 PM   #44
CurlyQ.Howard
Senior Member
 
Join Date: May 1, 2012
Posts: 280
Check this; it may be of some assistance: http://www.ballisticsbytheinch.com/9luger.html
CurlyQ.Howard is offline  
Old April 17, 2013, 11:30 AM   #45
Ben Dover
Senior Member
 
Join Date: April 11, 2013
Location: High up in the Rocky Moun
Posts: 195
Darkgael.

I chose the higher velocity rounds for the ,25 on advice of several law enforcement agents. According to their experiences, the heavier FMJ rounds only register 750 FPS and are notorious of failing to penetrate skull bone.
__________________
The soldier's pack is not so heavy a burden as the prisoner's chains. Dwight Eisenhower
Ben Dover is offline  
Old April 19, 2013, 04:29 AM   #46
kcub
Senior Member
 
Join Date: October 24, 2010
Location: Austin, Texas
Posts: 1,795
I carry a Seecamp .32 in my back pocket. It is my backup/offhand gun. I've tried other options Micro Desert Eagle, Walther TPH, Sig 380, Keltec 380. I always wind up coming back to the Seecamp for that role.
kcub is online now  
Old April 19, 2013, 10:41 PM   #47
arizona98tj
Senior Member
 
Join Date: December 10, 2007
Location: Arizona
Posts: 907
Quote:
Another unpopular opinion I hold is that .45 Auto sucks somethin' awful out of short barrels. Velocity, energy and penetration plummet and reliability (in most subcompact .45 Auto platforms) suffers.
Plummet? Maybe plummet is a relative term and is interpreted differently by different people.

I question the use of the term "plummet" since this past week I got around to running my .45ACP Hornady carry rounds over my chronograph. Out of the 3.3" barrel of my Springfield XD-S....(they don't make too many other .45's any smaller or lighter), the Hornady loads clocked 851 FPS @ 10' from the muzzle. According to the specs on the ammo box (with no barrel length stated), Hornady claims 900 FPS at the muzzle.

I'm sorry, but I don't see a 49 FPS drop in velocity as plummeting....and certainly not in the "sucks" category. I doubt you could tell the difference if getting hit with two bullets, one at 900 and the other at 851 FPS. You stated your opinion is construed as unpopular.....maybe because the real numbers don't back it up?

I know you said "most subcompacts".....but the same round goes faster out of my other XD45 subcompact. (I picked the slowest velocity I've measured to date out of the four .45ACP pistols I own.)
__________________
stu-offroad.com
Largest Jeep TJ project site on the web!
(now with guns)
arizona98tj is offline  
Old April 20, 2013, 11:32 PM   #48
Samopal
Junior Member
 
Join Date: November 24, 2008
Location: Michigan
Posts: 8
BBTI backs up my claim fairly well: http://www.ballisticsbytheinch.com/megraphs/45auto.html Note the steep downwards trend once you hit 4".

Likewise compare individual tested loads: http://www.ballisticsbytheinch.com/45auto.html

I certainly see a 20% drop in muzzle energy from 5" to 3" as "plummeting", especially compared to other cartridges that hold their velocity better in short barrels, like the .357 SIG.
__________________
You can never be too rich, too good-looking, or too-well armed.
Samopal is offline  
Reply

Tags
barrel lenght , mouse gun , pocket gun

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 01:27 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
This site and contents, including all posts, Copyright © 1998-2013 S.W.A.T. Magazine
Copyright Complaints: Please direct DMCA Takedown Notices to the registered agent: thefiringline.com
Contact Us
Page generated in 0.12036 seconds with 7 queries