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Old April 1, 2013, 01:14 AM   #1
KnightofCydonia
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1911 Double Feed

Hello,

So I shot my Norinco 1911A1 Commander today for the first time. It has been tuned and tightened with a skeletonized hammer and Videcki trigger.

First 4 mags of 230 gr FMJ were flawless and I was hitting the targets at the 7 meter mark. However, the 5th magazine I got a feeding problem on the 5th/6th round. It looked like the round being fed missed the chamber and was lodged above it keeping the action open, so I would remove the mag and lock the action back to drop the round out. I'm wondering if this is a magazine problem (factory Norinco magazine not angled properly) or the gun is dirty? All subsequent magazines had the same problem around the 4th-6th round. I only have the one Chinese magazine. Also I noticed from then on after, I was having a hard time hitting anything I aimed at. I am really confused as to what is happening.

I hope it's an easy fix of just getting higher quality magazines.
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Old April 1, 2013, 03:58 AM   #2
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About 95% of all failure to feed issues can be traced to the magazine.

Is this it?

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Old April 1, 2013, 06:13 AM   #3
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A new mag is the place to start. Try a Chip McCormick. They are well made, reliable and won't break the bank.
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Old April 1, 2013, 06:23 AM   #4
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If other magazines don't create the same failure, try a new +10% magazine spring from Wolff Gunsprings.
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Old April 1, 2013, 07:04 AM   #5
polyphemus
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Excessive extractor tension could be the cause,if different magazines do the
same thing then it is probably something else.For some reason over tensioned
extractors can cause three pointers at any stage in the feeding sequence.
Of course ammunition/magazine mismatch is a possibility.
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Old April 1, 2013, 07:23 AM   #6
1911Tuner
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re:

Re-reading, I noticed this:

Quote:
It looked like the round being fed missed the chamber and was lodged above it.
That's called jumping the magazine, and the usual cause is the magazine spring. If the recoil spring is too heavy, that'll make it more likely to happen.
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Old April 1, 2013, 10:13 AM   #7
KnightofCydonia
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The problem is exactly as in the picture. I was shooting Norinco 230 gr in a Norinco magazine. Weird is that it fed fine for 4 mags and then once every subsequent mag it would get this failure.

I'm thinking the way the rounds were loaded into the magazine flared the feeding lips on the mag. Is that a possibility? This may have caused premature feeding of the next round? Or the angle of the follower is slightly off at a certain point in the mag?
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Old April 1, 2013, 10:18 AM   #8
Constantine
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My Colt 70 Series would do double feeds when the extractor wasn't tuned, it wouldn't eject the round after it was fired and still try to feed another. I'd say extractor.
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Old April 1, 2013, 10:20 AM   #9
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Quote:
The problem is exactly as in the picture.
That's called a "Bolt Over Base" misfeed, and it comes back to a weak mag spring. It most often happens on the last round, so that spring must be pretty soft.

The mechanical explanation is that the slide literally outruns the magazine, and catches the case in the extractor groove instead of at the rear of the rim.
Look closely at the picture and you can see it.
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Old April 2, 2013, 07:42 PM   #10
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Quote:
My Colt 70 Series would do double feeds when the extractor wasn't tuned, it wouldn't eject the round after it was fired and still try to feed another. I'd say extractor.
That description is what most of us call a "double feed" with the extractor often the culprit. The OP's description is not really a "double feed." I think one of the reasons that feeding issues are sometimes difficult to diagnose is that the exact problem is not described well. More often than not, it simply "jams" and this is not very helpful.

What would be helpful is a "go to" description of the various feeding issues and the most likely fix it. 1911Tuner?
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Old April 2, 2013, 08:46 PM   #11
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Take the slide off and remove the barrel. With finger pressure, slide a round up into the extractor as it would go when feeding from the magazine. It should slide up under the extractor without excess force but the extractor should not drop it when you let go of the round. If it's really hard to get it in that could likely cause what the photo shows. But you don't want it so loose that the round falls out when you remove your finger.
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Old April 2, 2013, 09:09 PM   #12
polyphemus
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Unlikely loading the magazines damaged them in any way,because the pistol
has been modified we don't know what springs were replaced if any.
A good test of the magazine spring theory would be to simply stretch it out
a little that should not hurt anything,but I still think the x is the culprit.
And that has to be properly checked,the eyeball method is not even close to
being reliable you need it in the vicinity of 26-27oz.It is not hard to measure it
it is similar to testing trigger pull weight,it is amazing how little attention is
given to that setting considering how critical it is for proper operation.
Please check your extractor.
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Old April 2, 2013, 11:10 PM   #13
KnightofCydonia
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I talked to the owner and he said the mag was new, aka that it was full of Chicom preservative grease. I opened up the mag and it was packed full of it. So I cleaned it all out, I think it should work fine now.
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Old April 2, 2013, 11:59 PM   #14
Constantine
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1911 Double Feed

Quote:
Originally Posted by KnightofCydonia View Post
I talked to the owner and he said the mag was new, aka that it was full of Chicom preservative grease. I opened up the mag and it was packed full of it. So I cleaned it all out, I think it should work fine now.
Hope so. Test it out and let us know.
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Old April 3, 2013, 06:42 AM   #15
polyphemus
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Yep,that Chicom grease will get you every time.
Was it oozing ot the witness holes?
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Old April 3, 2013, 09:51 AM   #16
KnightofCydonia
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No the outside was fine, I did notice the follower had some grease, but I just thought it was there for smoothing its travel. No wonder the bullets that were being fed were greasy and that accuracy fell off to the wayside by the 5th mag.
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Old April 3, 2013, 11:56 AM   #17
polyphemus
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It would be a good idea to strip the pistol and look see where else they may
have gunked it up.What type magazine is that anyway?
And while you're at it you could check the extractor tension.Those extra power
springs really help to turn mediocre magazines into useful ones.
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Old April 3, 2013, 04:43 PM   #18
KnightofCydonia
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Yeah I stripped the pistol and cleaned it, the grease had spread all over the chamber and frame's feed ramp. Got it all cleaned out. Extractor should be fine as it was running the first 4 mags fine. The mag is a USGI 7 round style with flat follower.
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Old April 3, 2013, 05:44 PM   #19
polyphemus
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No man,looking at it is not good enough you have to properly check it.
All that chatter about sticking a round in it and shaking it loose is not helpful
it does not tell you anything,you have to measure things to know.Extractor tension is integral to the M1911 operation too little or too much tension and you
have malfunctions at least you should eliminate that factor from the possibility
list and you don't have to buy anything to make sure.The M1911 is a great
firearm and is worth understanding,once you know it it's like a friend always
there if you need it.
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Old April 3, 2013, 06:54 PM   #20
James K
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I found the Norinco magazines to be OK, but things can change. For many years, I have used nothing but WWII GI magazines (watch out for fakes) and they are the only ones I fully trust. (FWIW, I have two Norincos. I logged 8.5k through one and 3k through the other with zero problems of any kind, using a mix of Norinco and GI magazines, and very little cleaning.)

Jim
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Old April 3, 2013, 07:21 PM   #21
KnightofCydonia
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How do you check the extractor and what are you looking for? I should have been tuned by the gunsmith when he went over the fitting.

I'm going to pick up some new Metalform 7 round round follower S/S magazines with the welded bottom for $35 for 2 mags, is that a fair price?
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Old April 3, 2013, 09:47 PM   #22
polyphemus
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"How do you check the extractor and what are you looking for? I should have been tuned by the gunsmith when he went over the fitting."
Gunsmiths,OK.You need about 26-27oz.pressure on the cartridge,I use spent
bullets as weights (they fall off my back stop) in a small hardware bag,then I
loosely wrap a thread around an empty case and slowly lift it,it's not an exact
science but it is fairly accurate,you can use some other known weight.If this
ain't clear just holler.
Metaform magazines are as far as I know wadcutter with a convex follower,they
may work for you but for pistol balls you really want GI's.
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Old April 4, 2013, 08:13 PM   #23
KyJim
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These are the closest new "GI" mags you'll find: http://www.topgunsupply.com/check-ma...-magazine.html
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Old April 4, 2013, 08:58 PM   #24
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Bolt over base misfeed

Caused by the slide moving forward before the top round of the mag has risen into line to be fed.

The cause is anything that reduces the force pushing up on the round in the magazine. Weak spring is often the cause. Dirt, gunk, grease inside the magazine body, or anything (like a dent) that causes the follower to stick, bind, or slow will cause this kind of misfeed.

Before you do anything else, disassemble the mags, and the gun, clean, degease, and properly lubricate them. Reassemble and go back to the range and see how it runs.

Quote:
So I shot my Norinco 1911A1 Commander today for the first time. It has been tuned and tightened
You got a new gun, "tuned and tightened". It is going to jam. Tight guns jam. They jam because inorder for them to be "tight" for an acceptable round count (last a while) you have to get them borderline "overtight" to start with.

There is a fine line between getting them tight enough and just barely too much. And by "tight" I mean the whole tuning process. A few jams/misfeeds in the first few hundred cycles are normal, even without an obvious cause like packing grease left in the gun or the mags.

Packing grease is a preservative, not a lubricant. The only thing they have in common is that we call them both "grease".

I'd be willing to bet (not much, because I'm cheap) that if you take your new gun back to the range, properly cleaned and lubed, fed quality ammunition (properly made, in spec ammo) it will run pretty good.
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Old April 7, 2013, 01:50 AM   #25
KnightofCydonia
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I'm pretty sure it was the new mag full of preservative grease. I cleaned it out and now the spring depresses properly. I picked up 2 Metalform 7 round SS welded base magazines today with the round follower. They fit and drop out okay and lock the slide back properly.

Curious, what's the difference between the flat USGI style follower and the round followers? One for FMJ and the other for HP bullets?

Also, what's the big difference on welded base plates vs other types? And are the bumpers that screw in on the bottom worth it?
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