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Old April 1, 2013, 03:48 PM   #51
m&p45acp10+1
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I was taght by my grampa. He gave me a few tidbits of "Old Dude Wisdom" (The kind aquired by a guy that survived to be that old. For situations of road rage.

1 Try to avoid offending people.
2. Avoid yelling, and horn honking excessively if someone per say cuts you off or such.
3. Do not stop if you can avoid it. Keep driving.
4. If you can not keep driving stay in the car, and keep an eye on the person. If they are out of the car. Try to drive away without running over them if you can.

My tidbits in there. I carry on body except when driving. I am a lefty shooter, and the door interferes with my ability to draw. I keep the gun ready to fire in console, and can shoot it well right handed as well. If an act of agression like the other guy showed happend to me I would have driven away. If he followed I would have called 911 told the situation to the dispatcher, and where I was, and was planning on driving to so that the police could intercept. If not I would have had 911 on the phone as soon as the guy was out of the car.

Though hind sight is 20/20. I have dealt with a road raged person, and had to present my carry gun. The other person left. A bystander saw what was going on and called police. I waited there for them, and explained the situation. They checked my CHL told me I did the right thing, gave me my gun back. They wished me luck on my fishing trip that I was on my way to.
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Old April 1, 2013, 04:02 PM   #52
bonefamily
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Quote:
Let's get real guys, I think he did the right thing.

The idea of doing a cell phone video while holding a gun and dealing with an irate person seems just too ludicrous to be taken seriously.
Agreed.
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Old April 1, 2013, 04:30 PM   #53
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I think the OP is lucky he didn't go to jail for "brandishing" a gun. I hear a lot of stories on the new where in a road rage someone flashes a gun and get felonies.

I have the belief that flashing guns to stop fights is stupid and dangerous. IMO Never pull a gun unless you intent to use it. just MO.

You are in a fight in fights people will use any available tactic to harm you including calling the police which happens very often when guns come out. They risk getting petty offense "disturbing the peace" you risk a felony as soon as the gun comes out.

Maybe the guy also had a gun and now he has the advantage of shooting you while you are stuck inside the car with limited movement. He will probably say something like "He pulled a gun and said you are going to die". Your word against his and you are dead.

I don't carry in my car that much, when I do I also have a jacket or sweat shirt in the seat by me so if I need the gun close it can still be hidden. I always though that if someone did attack me while I was in the car I would get the gun cover it and wait for them to break the window and fill their cheat full of rounds. That is the idea, but in real life who know how things play out?
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Old April 1, 2013, 07:03 PM   #54
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Quote:
I have the belief that flashing guns to stop fights is stupid and dangerous. IMO Never pull a gun unless you intent to use it. just MO.
Change that to you're in fear for your life and I'll agree. I may pull my gun because I'm in fear for my life, but as it's pulled, the aggressor runs away. It's happened many times, just take a look at NRA's The Armed Citizen. I then have lost the intent to use it, because I'm certainly not going to shoot him in the back. Or, you could look at that as using it just as a show of force in those successful encounters. At any rate, the police should be called.
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Old April 1, 2013, 07:25 PM   #55
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deepcreek

Avoidance, deterence and defense. In that order

He avoided a confrontation until he couldn't. He used deterrence when he couldn't. Fortunately he didn't have to escalate to defense and everyone got to go home that day. That's an excellent outcome.

Your bravado will get you in big trouble someday.
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Old April 1, 2013, 07:52 PM   #56
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The only thing I would have done differently is just drove away when he got out of his car, then as I was driving away, I would have called 911.
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Old April 2, 2013, 06:36 AM   #57
cgaengineer
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Drew my handgun in car...right/wrong response?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Eppie View Post
Let's get real guys, I think he did the right thing.

The idea of doing a cell phone video while holding a gun and dealing with an irate person seems just too ludicrous to be taken seriously.
Hang on a sec while I unlock my phone and open my dash cam app...ok, you can start being aggressive now.
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Old April 2, 2013, 10:02 AM   #58
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The only mistake I see that the op made was not having his gun loaded, round chambered and ready to shoot if needed. Under the seat or in the console is fine but an unloaded gun has never saved anyone's life. condition zero, point pull trigger, that is my way of looking at it. I won't even own a pistol with an external safety.
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Old April 2, 2013, 10:15 AM   #59
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Quote:
We are still talking about branishing a weapon...moving a physical altercation into a potential deadly altercation. I am sure the post is missing some details however; we are talking about a road rage incident (very common where I live). I will assume this was a male against male, one wanting to fight the other. Don't see the disparity in force to justify the drawing of the gun however; I was not there.
Disparity of force? I have not heard of that in a while. In Texas the requirement is a reasonable fear of death of serious bodily harm (and not in the furtherance of a crime).
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Old April 2, 2013, 10:29 AM   #60
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Quote:
Let's get real guys, I think he did the right thing.

The idea of doing a cell phone video while holding a gun and dealing with an irate person seems just too ludicrous to be taken seriously.
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Yes thats an ideal situation. I have told my boy in the past to evade etc. but if cornered immediately call 911, open the phone/camera and shout he is on the line with police and being recorded.
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Old April 2, 2013, 10:32 AM   #61
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I think the OP is lucky he didn't go to jail for "brandishing" a gun. I hear a lot of stories on the new where in a road rage someone flashes a gun and get felonies.
NO. In Texas this is an almost textbook case of what CHLers are taught to do.

* He did not instigate.
* He actively attempted to avoid.
* He kept a barrier between himself and the BG and attempted to calm the situation.
* He did not show until a further escalation wherein the BG was attempting to enter/open the vehicle.
* He left as quickly as possible and likewise called 911 as quickly as possible.

Pragmatically, absent other information, its hard to see what better method he could have done.
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Old April 2, 2013, 11:06 AM   #62
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Cameras...

I disagree with some of the posted statements.
New compact DV units or "GoPros" are out there. Retailer Brookstone even has a small drone citizens can run with a smartphone/iPhone. I played with it in Stamford CT, .
Cops in 2013 have camera systems in sunglasses, Tasers, tactical vests, weapons, vehicles, etc.

Growing up, I often heard: "if it's not written down then it didn't happen".

Remember too that what the US criminal justice system is based on is not what the truth is but what you can prove.
I'd add that I don't suggest anyone hold a weapon & a camera phone, but be ready & able to protect the crime scene/evidence or gather information.
I'd also keep your legal & civil rights in mind at the scene, .

Not to stray off topic, but in my area a car lot mgr was shot & killed in a "road rage" event. He was test-driving a customer vehicle for a trade-in and a armed citizen shot him with what looked like a Colt 1911a1 Defender .45acp.
I'm sure the car dealer CEO/legal affairs will now have employees drive in pairs or have DV cameras/mini cam systems with them.
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Old April 2, 2013, 11:42 AM   #63
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Something I haven't seen mentioned here, but I think worth bringing up is that in many states with Castle laws, your "Castle" extends to your car. I don't know the gun laws, per se, in Texas (I have a cursory knowledge of them as I visit Texas once or twice a year) but in Arizona, the physical act of breaking into a home makes lethal force justifiable, with or without a weapon present. I am not saying you should shoot anyone who forces (meaning you've taken precautions to prevent entry, and they still force their way in) their way into your home (how many drunks, going to the wrong house have been shot?), but it is justifiable, since the person's intent has been shown.

If the OPs scenario happened in Arizona, showing the firearm would have been perfectly legal, as the OP was protecting his "Castle."

To those that say the first time an attacker sees your weapon it should be followed by loud bangs, keep in mind that most of the time, the mere presence of a firearm in the hands of an innocent, law abiding citizen is enough to deescalate most situations. That means everyone gets to leave the situation without any new holes in their bodies, and in good relative health.

Someone mentioned action beats reaction. This is very true when both attacker and victim are on equal footing. But if I have a gun in my hand, or my hand on my holstered gun, or whatever (no matter where it is), and I see an attacker making a furtive movement for his beltline, even though I am the one reacting, I will win this race every time. This is actually a fun drill to do with another person using a blue gun, or airsoft. Have one person with a (blue or airsoft) gun holstered. Have the other person with gun in hand. The only rule is, the person with gun in hand cannot aim and fire until the person with gun in holster makes a movement for his gun. I've done this one, and seen it done hundreds of times, and every time, with only a few exceptions the person with gun in hand wins.
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Old April 2, 2013, 12:02 PM   #64
peacefulgary
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Quote:
IMO Never pull a gun unless you intent to use it. just MO
I agree.
But if I pull my handgun, with full intent to use it, and the threat turns and runs, I'm not going to shoot him in the back.

And now he can go and call the cops and claim that he was going to ask to borrow my cellphone when I drew my pistol and pointed it at him.

Brandishing?

My word against his.
I would have to take my chances in court if charged.

But suppose I waited to draw...waited till he was slamming the hood...waited till he was elbowing the window trying to break it....waited till he drew a pistol of his own???

No.
That's definitely NOT the answer.

Neither is drawing a pistol with an empty chamber.
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Old April 2, 2013, 04:20 PM   #65
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The part that really shows that this guy was nuts is when the OP showed his gun, this idiot standing there asking him if he had a permit for it. Total lack of any good sense. Should have just shot the SOB (kidding) kind of.
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Old April 2, 2013, 04:36 PM   #66
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Sooo, why was he so upset? I never seen a person act that way just cause.
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Old April 2, 2013, 05:10 PM   #67
deepcreek
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Quote:
But if I pull my handgun, with full intent to use it, and the threat turns and runs, I'm not going to shoot him in the back.
This must be why people practice with rotating silhouette targets. lol
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Old April 2, 2013, 05:23 PM   #68
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OP did find. When I read that he hit the glass my first thought was "Castle Doctrine". Good job.

A few months ago I had a nut follow me around my Neighborhood. He had been riding my bumper since I had turned off the main road. I have no idea what I had done, if anything to provoke him, but I didn't go home. I drove through my neighborhood with him on my bumper the entire time, till I pulled out back onto the main road. He then broke off and went back the way we had come. I was ready with the phone to call 911. This was before I was carrying. I now keep my firearm next to my phone in the dash console.
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Old April 2, 2013, 05:57 PM   #69
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Sooo, why was he so upset? I never seen a person act that way just cause.
Crazy people do crazy things. Just a couple months ago, I was leaving a clinic (owned and ran by the University of Arizona Medical Center, and as such an extension of the University, meaning no guns) with my infant son and 3.5 year old daughter. She was having a checkup after a few hours in the hospital a few days before. As I approached my car, I saw a car on the main road rolling up to the stop light (it was red, and he was behind another car). His window was down, and he just started screaming at the top of his lungs.

It took me a couple moments to realize he was screaming at the car in front of him for stopping at the stop light. This dude was banging on the steering wheel, and hitting the horn periodically. He then started screaming at the stop light "Stupid [expletive] stoplight! TURN GREEN, G-D'it," and other things like that. I quickly got the kids strapped in while keeping an eye out on this guy. I jumped in the driver's seat got my phone out, and typed 9-1-1 into it, ready to call if this guy did something. At the same time, I unlocked the safe that had my gun in it...just in case.

The light turned green, he was still screaming, but he went on his way. His screaming went on for a solid 90 seconds, at least. I called the PD non-emergency line and gave them a description and a plate number, just in case. I just told them I was concerned this guy might do something to harm someone. The behavior was very odd, and I wanted them to be aware of what I had seen. They thanked me, and of course, I never heard anything about anything happening.

So yeah, crazy people do crazy things sometimes...

Last edited by Vanya; April 2, 2013 at 07:14 PM. Reason: language.
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Old April 2, 2013, 06:53 PM   #70
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Quote:
Not sure why you stopped the car the second time.
If he is cutting you off and slamming his breaks on, he was risking lives....you don't want to have to shoot someone in self defense on what would appear to be a road rage incident while the car is moving if possible.
Running or fleeing options only apply to within reason and you don't risk your life to keep from being in a position to defend it.
He did the right thing.
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Old April 2, 2013, 09:15 PM   #71
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You did good.

One cannot predict what a wacko driver will do. Pulled out of our development and made a left turn. Its a 35 mph zone that soon goes to 45 mph. There was no traffic. Went about 1/4 mile when a pickup came up behind me at 80-100 mph. The idiot passed me, cut back in and over-corrected. The truck went off the left side of the road and over a pond dam, then went airborne into the pond. The truck landed upside down and nose down.

Saw the guys eyes as he passed me. Looked like your typical meth addict having a bad trip. i did not stop.

The truck was in the pond for a couple days and then disappeared.
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Old April 3, 2013, 07:27 AM   #72
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There is no such thing as a fair fight. That is why I carry.

I am not a badass. I don't have MMA training. I don't get into fights. I don't know what damage the person will cause to me, or the other people in my care if I get put out.

If you want a 'fair' fight with me, we can arrange it in a ring.
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Old April 3, 2013, 08:09 AM   #73
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I don't know what I can add - I think the OP handled himself perfectly and that drawing his gun in a ready, but not aimed position is very likely what I would have done......actually have done once before when I couldn't just drive away.

As far as "brandishing" goes, I see it more as the OP was simply making sure he had access to his firearm in case he needed it. He was still in his car and did not threaten the idiot. If he had a permit (at least in my state), he could have had that gun just lying on his front seat - no problem there.

If the idiot blocks you in with his car and his body, proceeds to aggressively strike your vehicle, it's not that easy to just drive away. You may have to make the decision to run him over, hit the guy's car, or damage your own car (and possibly get it stuck) trying to get over a curb/grass to get around. At that point you may genuinely feel trapped and need to get the guy to back off before you can drive away.

Last edited by Skans; April 3, 2013 at 08:16 AM.
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Old April 3, 2013, 03:24 PM   #74
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Has there ever been a situation where the phrase "no blood, no foul" has been more appropriate?
Aggressive, out of control nutjob behind the wheel of a deadly weapon(car) corners man with a gun.
No shots fired.
No face to face confrontation.
911 called, BG properly charged.
Firearm not even pointed in the direction of a human, yet effective nonetheless.
No one dead, heck no injuries of any type.

Explain to me what a better result would have looked like.
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Old April 4, 2013, 01:51 PM   #75
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Inside Edition, road rage: USMC active duty, video...

The national media show: Inside Edition ran a interesting item about a road rage event near or on a USMC base in southern CA(it may be Camp Pendelton but I'm not sure).
The video(shot by a female USMC veteran in the vehicle front passenger seat) showed a extremely irrate young Marine wig out on a male driver.

The vehicle driver showed a remarkable amount of constraint in the event. He doesn't speak or reply to the Marine & he keeps cool.

The video is worth showing students or a panel if you are cadre/instructor level because it demos how aggressive & hyper a road rage incident can get.

The hot tempered Marine was detained by MPs from the nearby USMC base.
More media details may come out later.
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