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Old April 2, 2013, 12:12 PM   #1
Straitshot
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Help with smokeless 45-70 load.

I inherited some smokeless 45-70 reloades form a friend that passed away awhile back. I have shot 45-70 guite a bit from my sharps rifles but I have always used black powder. I plan on using the inherited loads in my Browning 1886 carbine. The load data written on the cartridge boxes says the cartridges are loaded with 305 gr. lead bullet with 60 gr. of Accurate 8700. No info on the primer. Does anyone know if this is a safe load for the Browning 1886. When I have used smokeless powder I have always used IMR 4198 in my 45-70 and if I remember correctly it has been a 350 gr. gas checked bullet with around 28 gr. of IMR 4198. I have never used Accurate 8700 before and the 60 gr. seems like a lot. Any help would be appreciated.

Last edited by Straitshot; April 2, 2013 at 04:05 PM.
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Old April 2, 2013, 01:35 PM   #2
ocharry
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straightshot,,

you know i went to the accurate web site and that 8700 powder isn't listed anymore

so i went to my library and found some old accurate load books i have and a old loadbooks i have for the 45-70,,

in the load book it is only for 45-70 loads,,it lists all loads for that cal.,,,says 598 proven loads,19 various bullets,,28 powders, and i don't know how long i have had this book,,,the accurate books i have are from 2000 and 2001

but the load you have shown here is in my loadbooks USA

and with a 300 gr bullet it says,,,,FROM THE BOOK NOW FOR ACCURATE 8700 POWDER,,,45-70 GOVERNMENT starting load,, 57.0 grains,,,300 grain bullet ---1,020 fps
and the top load,,,,, 60.0grains,,,300grain bullet --- 1,079 fps

LOOKS TO ME LIKE YOUR FRIEND HAS THE TOP END LOAD

i would be very careful ,,,,the 86 action is a very strong but there is always a chance something could happen

you know i have been reloading for a long time and just for curiosity i looked through some other reloading books,,8700 was not listed in any of them for this cal. and i have several vol. from different manufacturers,,speer,hornady,hodgdon,sierra and the list goes on

now you can do what ever you want ,,like i said this load is a top end load,,,AND IT IS OLD!!!!

my recommendation to you would be to pull the bullets and DUMP THE POWDER,, and then make some new reloads,,,,i think you could use the cases and the bullets,,i would discard the old primers too,,,i am not saying these are bad,,and i am not saying they won't go bang,,or possibly BOOM,,, what i am saying is ,,,IF you choose to shoot them,,look for pressure spikes and pay attention to the case to make sure there is nothing going on that shouldn't be

dump them and start over

hope this helps,,,PROCCED WITH CAUTION

ocharry
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Old April 2, 2013, 01:37 PM   #3
Slamfire
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Pull the bullets, dump the powder, and reload using your powder and charges you know to be safe.
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Old April 2, 2013, 01:39 PM   #4
William T. Watts
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Looks like Slamfire beat me to it!!

I would pull the bullets dump the powder and save the cases and load them. I've seen guns locked up after shooting ammunition of unknown origin. If I load it I know it's safe, I never shoot another fellows reloads/handloads. William
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Old April 2, 2013, 02:47 PM   #5
Jim Watson
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AA8700 is a very slow powder, not well suited for .45-70 except that it can give good accuracy even though at low velocity and with a lot of unburnt powder left in the gun. I don't have my old AA book that showed it, but 60 grains is probably a case full.

The load is likely safe... if that is what it really is.
But how can you know what somebody else did?

I'd break it down for the brass and lead.
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Old April 2, 2013, 03:31 PM   #6
totaldla
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Just shoot them. Why the fuss? Was the man you got them from a moron? Did he shoot them in a comparable firearm?

"8700
An extremely slow burning, double base, ball-type rifle powder which is Accurate’s slowest powder.
It was originally developed for the .50 Browning (12.7mmx99 Nato). This powder delivers optimum perfor-
mance in heavily necked down large capacity calibers such as the .257 Weatherby Magnum, .264 Win
Mag and 7mm RUM. This powder is so slow that even at maximum and compressed loading densities, it
is virtually impossible to cause any over pressure"

Look at the load data - they use the same 60gr charge for all bullet weights up to 500gr. 60gr is all you can get in the case.

Just shoot them.
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Old April 2, 2013, 03:53 PM   #7
Straitshot
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Yes, he did shoot them. In fact he has written on the boxes that they were loaded for his new model Winchester 1886 that he had purchased a few years before he passed away. There are a 100 loaded rounds and I hate to pull them all down and redo them. He was a very competent individual and reloaded quite often. My main concern was whether or not the 60 gr. of Acurate 8700 was okay. I know it is a slow burning powder and has been used in large caliber rifles. I just have not been unable to find any information on it for the 45-70. Perhaps it is because it's no longer made.

I appreciate everyones input.
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Old April 2, 2013, 05:32 PM   #8
SHR970
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From my 2000 Accurate Powder Data.
400 gr. Jacketed Max 60.0 gr for 992 fps.
500 gr. Jacketed Max. 60.0 gr. for 1033 fps.
378 gr. lead Max. 60.0 gr. for q1026 fps
405 gr. lead Max. 60.0 gr. for 1165 fps.
500 gr. lead Max. 60.0 gr. for 1000 fps.

2005 data.

400 gr. Spr FN 60.0 gr. 992 fps. @ 14,300 psi Compressed load. COL 2.560"
500 gr. Hdy RNSP 60.0 gr. 1033 fps. @ 10,000 psi Compressed load COL 2.825" Note with the 500 gr. bullets most were 2.580" COL until they got to 4350, 3100, and 8100 powders.

Somehow I don't think you are going to get above SAAMI's 28,000 psi limit for Trapdoors, let alone into the danger zone for a Browning 1886.

Edit to add link to 2003 guide on line Linky

And Accurate #2 load guide Linky 2

Last edited by SHR970; April 2, 2013 at 07:12 PM.
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Old April 2, 2013, 08:24 PM   #9
ocharry
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straitshot;

SHR970 is right,, that powder is used for about all the bullet weights,,and 60gr is the top powder charge on all the data,,,just may have a case full as has been suggested

i have never used this powder and so everything i gave you earlier was from the data i had in front of me

don't know when they stopped making 8700,,last data i have is 2001,,if you feel confident in your friends ability i can't tell you not to shoot the stuff

i just wanted you to be safe,,this stuff is old,,are you sure about the info on the box?? i know you can't ask your friend so thats why i would pull it and if i did decide to shoot it, i would be looking the first case after firing over pretty good for pressure signs

i was running the clock for a guy that messed up a really nice highwall because of a bad load,,he sent it back to browning to ask about repair,,browning sent it back and said sorry unrepairable,,this guy was a competant reloader too,,it does happen,,,lucky this guy wasn't hurt bad,,busted his nose,,broke his glasses,,some cuts on his right hand,,messy drawers,,,,wrecked 1885 browning highwall,,and he supposedly knew what he reloaded

my .02 again

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Old April 2, 2013, 09:06 PM   #10
bbqncigars
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If the ammo was stored correctly, it should shoot fine. If in doubt about the powders viability, grab three at random to inspect the powder. If it looks/smells good, then it probably is good.
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Old April 4, 2013, 06:36 PM   #11
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I'm kind of surprised no one zeroed in on the fact ~1000 fps for a 300 grain bullet is a low pressure load. Not much of a risk to shoot them in an 1886 action.
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