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Old March 31, 2013, 01:55 PM   #76
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Any round that offers a significant "improvement" over the .308 will also have its own drawbacks. The same weight (or heavier) bullet at higher speeds means more recoil.

Bigger rounds also mean higher cost. Flatter trajectory is a matter of inches, literally, and is very much a question of what you can use, versus cost, recoil, etc...

In the US, the 125gr bullet is not the common deer load, We use bullets in the 150-180gr range for deer and other big game. I have had very good results with the 165gr hunting bullets, being nearly as flat shooting as the 150s, and having most of the mass advantage of the 180s.

While the .223 and the .22-250 are legal for deer in some parts of the US, in most of the country they are considered too small, rifles of .24 caliber (6mm) or larger being required. The .22-250 is about 400-600fps faster than the .223, depending on which bullet/load you are looking at.

While fast and flat shooting, the .22s have a higher wind drift than bigger bullet with higher BCs.

Also, if using the .22s (either one) bullet selection is critical. The majority of loads are varmint loads, and the bullet perfiormance that delivers exposive kills on a woodchuck is not the one you want to take deer with.
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Old March 31, 2013, 02:05 PM   #77
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Ruger had a quote in his last post about faster being harder hitting.


Not always the case. Momentum = Mass * Velocity

P=M*V

Momentum is what kills not speed necessarily. Although speed is a determining factor that contributes to Momentum.

Example:

Bullet grains of 150
Velocity of 2900 fps
Momentum = 435000p

Bullet grains 175
Velocity of 2728
Momentum = 477400p
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Old March 31, 2013, 03:02 PM   #78
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Don't forget that the extra velocity down the pipe also results in shorter life span for the barrel.

I may be oversimplifying but for hunters trading mass for velocity seems like a bad trade to me. Mass matters on the wind and on impact on the deer. For target shooters trading mass for velocity is a good trade because it reduces recoil and flinching and there's only paper to punch not bone and muscle.

When it's all said and done it's hard for hunters to beat a 308.

P.S. IMO UncleNick has probably forgotten more than most of us will ever learn about bullets and shooting.
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Old March 31, 2013, 04:11 PM   #79
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Originally Posted by Scottish Highlander
…at least 100 grains AND have a minimum muzzle velocity of 2,450 feet per second AND a minimum muzzle energy of 1,750 foot pounds.
That knocks all the normal .22's out, as 90 grain match bullets are about as heavy as are commonly available in .224" bullets, and even those need a 7" twist barrel to stabilize and they don't expand reliably. 100 grains is not uncommon in 6 mm (.243 in U.S. bullets), but I'm not seeing BC's as high in the 6 mm or in the .257's as you get with the 6.5 mm to 7 mm bullets. You could do a lot worse than the 140 grain Hornady SST in 6.5 mm, using something that pushes it fast to make it flatter shooting. But also good an BC are their 150 grain .270 SST or their 162 grain 7 mm SST. These have G1 BC's of 0.520, 0.525, and 0.550, respectively.

One other factor to consider is how much flat shooting really matters to you, and that depends in part on how you sight in your rifle. Let's take your .308 Winchester and the 6.5-284 I mentioned earlier. Say that we load the Hornady 180 grain Interbond (G1 BC of .480) at 2600 fps in the .308 and the Hornady 140 Grain SST in the 6.5-284 at 2900 fps. I use Jeff Cooper's idea that you set the sights of any high power rifle to be on at 200 yards. That puts the bullet around 2"-2.5" high at 100 yards for most cartridges and it then stays within a 5" circle from the firing point all the way to somewhere between 200 and 300. If you have a 10" aiming circle (deer), that leaves half the circle for the gun and half for the shooter's hold error¹.

So, let's see what the differences look like:

The .308, 180 grain Interbond, BC=0.480", 2600 fps MV, sight zero at 200 yards

Apogee 2.5" inches high at 111 yards
PB limit: -2.5" low at 235 yards
Correction at 300 yards: Hold 9.4" high
30 mph side wind drift at 300 yards, 22.2 inches

The 6.5-284, 140 grain SST, BC=0.520, 2900 fps MV, sight zero at 200 yards

Apogee 1.9" at 114 yards
PB limit: -2.5" at 244 yards
Correction at 300 yards: Hold 7.2" high
30 mph side wind drift at 300 yard, 17.3"

So, for all that flatter shooting, I gain 9 yards of point blank range and 2.2" lower holdover at 300 yards when using a shared 200 yard zero. It is the wind where the biggest difference turns up.

You could squeeze a little more out of the 6.5-284 by taking the zero range out far enough to get a 2.5" apogee, like the .308 had. This means sighting the faster round at 224 yards instead of at 200 yards. You get:

Apogee 2.5" at 125 yards
PB limit: -2.5" at 264 yards
Correction at 300 yards: Hold 5.6" high
30 mph side wind drift at 300 yard, 17.3"

So that gets you about 1.5 moa less holdover at 300. Anyway, I just wanted to be sure you got the idea that with practical sighting the differences aren't quite so big as the advertising hype might lead you to believe.
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Old March 31, 2013, 04:32 PM   #80
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That knocks all the normal .22's out, as 90 grain match bullets are about as heavy as are commonly available in .224" bullets, and even those need a 7" twist barrel to stabilize and they don't expand reliably. 100 grains is not uncommon in 6 mm (.243 in U.S. bullets), but I'm not seeing BC's as high in the 6 mm or in the .257's as you get with the 6.5 mm to 7 mm bullets. You could do a lot worse than the 140 grain Hornady SST in 6.5 mm, using something that pushes it fast to make it flatter shooting. But also good an BC are their 150 grain .270 SST or their 162 grain 7 mm SST. These have G1 BC's of 0.520, 0.525, and 0.550, respectively.

One other factor to consider is how much flat shooting really matters to you, and that depends in part on how you sight in your rifle. Let's take your .308 Winchester and the 6.5-284 I mentioned earlier. Say that we load the Hornady 180 grain Interbond (G1 BC of .480) at 2600 fps in the .308 and the Hornady 140 Grain SST in the 6.5-284 at 2900 fps. I use Jeff Cooper's idea that you set the sights of any high power rifle to be on at 200 yards. That puts the bullet around 2"-2.5" high at 100 yards for most cartridges and it then stays within a 5" circle from the firing point all the way to somewhere between 200 and 300. If you have a 10" aiming circle (deer), that leaves half the circle for the gun and half for the shooter's hold error¹.

So, let's see what the differences look like:

The .308, 180 grain Interbond, BC=0.480", 2600 fps MV, sight zero at 200 yards

Apogee 2.5" inches high at 111 yards
PB limit: -2.5" low at 235 yards
Correction at 300 yards: Hold 9.4" high
30 mph side wind drift at 300 yards, 22.2 inches

The 6.5-284, 140 grain SST, BC=0.520, 2900 fps MV, sight zero at 200 yards

Apogee 1.9" at 114 yards
PB limit: -2.5" at 244 yards
Correction at 300 yards: Hold 7.2" high
30 mph side wind drift at 300 yard, 17.3"

So, for all that flatter shooting, I gain 9 yards of point blank range and 2.2" lower holdover at 300 yards when using a shared 200 yard zero. It is the wind where the biggest difference turns up.

You could squeeze a little more out of the 6.5-284 by taking the zero range out far enough to get a 2.5" apogee, like the .308 had. This means sighting the faster round at 224 yards instead of at 200 yards. You get:

Apogee 2.5" at 125 yards
PB limit: -2.5" at 264 yards
Correction at 300 yards: Hold 5.6" high
30 mph side wind drift at 300 yard, 17.3"

So that gets you about 1.5 moa less holdover at 300. Anyway, I just wanted to be sure you got the idea that with practical sighting the differences aren't quite so big as the advertising hype might lead you to believe.
This is one of the best examples of shooting being a game of wind, not distance.
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Old March 31, 2013, 05:18 PM   #81
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The figures you have shown there are very interesting. I just tried the calculator and it'll be a very handy tool to get used to. Bullet drop is very interesting. The funny thing is I had a discussion with my dad already about the zero range and a wee bit of a disagreement because I always hold my 308 zero at 2" high on bull @100yards. My idea was it gave me a closer to zero @200 and I was right ...With my 150 gr Nosler it would be 1/2" low @200. 3" low at 300 which is a totally manageable shot for me with full confidence of a killing shot minus the wind of coarse ...Out at 600 yards its only 13" drop which is amazing really .....its nothing really and 600 yards is a long shot....

I think I'm going to get out in the field and fill some balloons up with chalk dust, blow them up to a 8" dia and tie them out at 100 yard increments and put this to the test. If I can hit an 8" balloon at 400 yards I'm on the money....Then I'll bring a windy day in on paper and see how it goes.
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Old March 31, 2013, 05:33 PM   #82
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I don't think you mean inches, but minutes of angle, which are roughly inches at 100 yards (1.047 inches per moa at 100 yards, twice that at 200, three times that at 300, etc.). Coming up 13 moa from 200 yards to 600 yard is in the ballpark of a correct sight adjustment. But if you fired the gun sighted at 200 yards at the center of a 600 yard target, then you'd find the impact was about 7½ feet low.
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Old March 31, 2013, 05:42 PM   #83
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Ohhhh stupid me ... ok I'll take a look again thanks
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Old March 31, 2013, 06:42 PM   #84
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For hunting it is hard to beat either the .308 or the .30-06 depending on which action you prefer. The great success of the .308 is due mostly to its caliber, low recoil, its military applications, and relatively cheap brass. The .308 advantage over the .30-06 is the use of short actions and improved cycling in fully automatic weapons.

The only drawback of the .308 is its velocity with high BC bullets. Even the .30-06 does not cut it for very long distances. For such a task, you need the .300 WM or the almighty .300 RUM. Both of these calibers kick like mules w/out a brake and the .300 RUM is also n an expensive brass to acquire, even as a reloader stand-point.

For target shooting, there are better options for the .308 case, namely the .260 R, the .243 W, and to some extent the 7-08. The .30-06 case is impressive as the .280 R, or better yet AI.

Again, for hunting it's hard to beat either the .308 or .30-08. For long-distance target shooting and sniping, there are better options but at times at the expenses of high recoil unless one downsizes the bullet.

There are reasons why there are so many calibers out there, just figure out what your needs are!
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Old April 1, 2013, 09:05 AM   #85
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Depends on the discipline. Military snipers use the .308, in its 7.62 NATO guise, loaded with the 175 grain Sierra MatchKing, and I think the record kill with it in the M24 system is 1200 yards. Palma matches still use the .308 at long range because it's required by the rules. If you take a look at the current 155 grain Palma bullets by Lapua and Sierra, you find their BC's are up with that of the 175 grain SMK, so you have lighter, higher BC bullets available than used to be the case. They're not going to make you competitive in an open chambering discipline, but for learning to read the wind and develop the skills used with any other caliber, it's just fine.
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Old April 1, 2013, 11:27 AM   #86
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That knocks all the normal .22's out, as 90 grain match bullets are about as heavy as are commonly available in .224" bullets, and even those need a 7" twist barrel to stabilize and they don't expand reliably. 100 grains is not uncommon in 6 mm (.243 in U.S. bullets), but I'm not seeing BC's as high in the 6 mm or in the .257's as you get with the 6.5 mm to 7 mm bullets. You could do a lot worse than the 140 grain Hornady SST in 6.5 mm, using something that pushes it fast to make it flatter shooting. But also good an BC are their 150 grain .270 SST or their 162 grain 7 mm SST. These have G1 BC's of 0.520, 0.525, and 0.550, respectively.

One other factor to consider is how much flat shooting really matters to you, and that depends in part on how you sight in your rifle. Let's take your .308 Winchester and the 6.5-284 I mentioned earlier. Say that we load the Hornady 180 grain Interbond (G1 BC of .480) at 2600 fps in the .308 and the Hornady 140 Grain SST in the 6.5-284 at 2900 fps. I use Jeff Cooper's idea that you set the sights of any high power rifle to be on at 200 yards. That puts the bullet around 2"-2.5" high at 100 yards for most cartridges and it then stays within a 5" circle from the firing point all the way to somewhere between 200 and 300. If you have a 10" aiming circle (deer), that leaves half the circle for the gun and half for the shooter's hold error¹.

So, let's see what the differences look like:

The .308, 180 grain Interbond, BC=0.480", 2600 fps MV, sight zero at 200 yards

Apogee 2.5" inches high at 111 yards
PB limit: -2.5" low at 235 yards
Correction at 300 yards: Hold 9.4" high
30 mph side wind drift at 300 yards, 22.2 inches

The 6.5-284, 140 grain SST, BC=0.520, 2900 fps MV, sight zero at 200 yards

Apogee 1.9" at 114 yards
PB limit: -2.5" at 244 yards
Correction at 300 yards: Hold 7.2" high
30 mph side wind drift at 300 yard, 17.3"

So, for all that flatter shooting, I gain 9 yards of point blank range and 2.2" lower holdover at 300 yards when using a shared 200 yard zero. It is the wind where the biggest difference turns up.

You could squeeze a little more out of the 6.5-284 by taking the zero range out far enough to get a 2.5" apogee, like the .308 had. This means sighting the faster round at 224 yards instead of at 200 yards. You get:

Apogee 2.5" at 125 yards
PB limit: -2.5" at 264 yards
Correction at 300 yards: Hold 5.6" high
30 mph side wind drift at 300 yard, 17.3"

So that gets you about 1.5 moa less holdover at 300. Anyway, I just wanted to be sure you got the idea that with practical sighting the differences aren't quite so big as the advertising hype might lead you to believe.
Excellent work, the only thing I would have added was difference in recoil.

.308 with a 180 grain bullet at approximately 2600 fps is 17.5 ft/lbs

6.5-284 with a 140 grain bullet at approximately 2900 fps is 14.7 ft/lbs
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Old April 1, 2013, 01:15 PM   #87
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I would be much indebted to you Unclenick if you could suggest a good bullet for me to try in my 308. Either Nosler or Hornady in the 150-170 grain range. I will be able to order them from my supplier and try a load.

Thanks
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Old April 1, 2013, 07:08 PM   #88
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A good bullet for what exactly? I'm no Uncleknick but I've gleaned 30 or so whitetails with a 150 grain Ballistic Tip from Nosler, excellent accuracy and with that being a .30 caliber, it'll kill what you can hit good with it.
Then there is the Partition from Nosler, and it's probably the finest hunting bullet around, I have shot lots of these and the performance was always stellar.. They penetrate and hold together well, so stags like the one pictured earlier ain't got a prayer, if you find a decent load with those bullets, for your rifle.
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Old April 2, 2013, 01:58 AM   #89
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Thanks Hooligan , It was mainly a bullet with a good bc that would serve me well on a windy day.
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Old April 2, 2013, 07:19 AM   #90
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It seems to me, that a 165 or 175 grain bullet with a boat tail form one of the major bullet makers (Sierra, Nosler, Speer, Hornady), would be the logical choice.

Around here, the 165 grain Sierra Gamekings seem to be preferred choice. You have to balance bc, penetration, expansion, bullet integrity and recoil. Recoil depends on how you are physically built, so if you're big you can stand a heavier bullet. The more you focus on bc the more you're going to be led towards hp and that's not good for game.
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Old April 2, 2013, 08:18 PM   #91
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Surgeon, Kinetic energy is a much more accurate demonstration of the killing power of a cartridge. KE=(1/2Mass) X (Velocity squared). KE is much more effected by velocity than mass.
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Old April 5, 2013, 07:38 PM   #92
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I have nothing to add, except that this has been a fascinating thread. Highlander, I have always wanted to see the Scottish Highlands and your pic has only brought that back to the surface. Maybe when I am finally moved and settled down into the new place, the wife and I will at last take that trip.
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Old April 5, 2013, 08:27 PM   #93
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Scottish highlander

Nice Deer in the picture. Your .308 is a very good Rifle, but If You want a super long range cartridge for the open terrain You hunt, a Winchester Model 70 chambered in 7mm Remington Magnum would be awesome.
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Old April 8, 2013, 05:03 AM   #94
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A good truck gun is a Mosin in 7.62x54R with a scout scope. Cheap and cheap to shoot with decent performance...
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Old April 19, 2013, 08:16 PM   #95
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All 30 caliber is 7.62. A .308 is 7.62 x 51 - A 30-06 is 7.62 x 63 (.30 caliber of 1906) a 30-30 is 30 caliber with 30 grains of black powder, (back when they used black powder when the 30-30 was coined) - the AK-47 round is a 7.62 x 39 etc; etc; etc; When you are talking about the 7.62x51, it's just the NATO designation for the .308 Winchester. Taint rocket surgery.
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Old April 20, 2013, 05:51 AM   #96
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Speaking of wind bucking bullets for the .308 Win., consider Sierra's HPMK's of 240 and 250 grain weights. Leaving at about 2150 fps from a 1:8 twist barrel, they'll drift less than any lesser weight HPMK at 1000 yards. And they stay supersonic to about 1200 yards.

Speaking of minutes of angle, note that in the beginning, when the shooting Gods in the USA decided smallbore and high power target scoring rings would be even inches in their diameters (late 1800's), one minute of angle was standardized as exactly one inch per hundred yards of range. Telescopic sights were made with a 7.2 inch external adjustment mounts that had .002" movement over 4 clicks of their 40 tpi adjustment screws. That's exactly 1/3600th the distance between the mounts. 1/3600 the distance of 100 yards is exactly 1 inch. Standard metallic sight spacing was 30 inches, so rear sights had .008333 inch movement for 1/3rd turn of the knob which happens with 40 tpi threads; very common on USA made aperture rear sights. 1/3600th of 30 inches is also .008333 inch. 'Twas only after some folks couldn't figure this simple and easy to use method out that the trigonometry value of a MOA of about 1.0472 inch per hundred yards became both popular and much harder to mentally use.
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Old April 20, 2013, 12:19 PM   #97
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Tried the 308 today with a bigger bullet. Hornady 168 gr A-max. Range tested it at 200 yards and zeroed it in best I could with a full side wind at 7 - 10 miles an hour ..

This is a good bullet and I was getting nice groups at 2" and tighter...the wind was a pain at that distance so I packed up after a dozen shots down range. Its got a bc of .475 which is encouraging
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Old April 21, 2013, 04:51 AM   #98
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A good truck gun is a Mosin in 7.62x54R with a scout scope. Cheap and cheap to shoot with decent performance...
There you go problem solved highlander, just buy a Mosin Nagant.
I guess one advantage with the wind is the wind noise will mask the sound of you moving so you could sneak up and bayonet the deer if you run out of ammo?
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Old April 22, 2013, 06:30 PM   #99
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A Tikka in .308 Win is more than enough gun for almost all hill stalking in the UK.

Spend the money on a good quality scope and some extra ammo and practise, practise, practise. Then practise some more...

Sorry, but there's no quick fix to being a better shot!
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Old April 27, 2013, 03:34 AM   #100
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I really like my 7.62x51 (.308) rifles. I have one bolt action and two semi autos. I did make a move up back in the day when bear hunting piqued my interest. It was a BAR in .338 WinMag. It's a great rifle in a killer caliber, but I still carry the .308 most often. It will take most any game in the lower 48 and is less punishing to shoot. The .338WinMag will reach out and touch something with authority, but all that power comes with a price. If you're not recoil sensitive it's a good way to go. JMHO
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