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Old March 30, 2013, 08:35 AM   #51
Eppie
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Your 308 with 165 grain bullet will handle a 300 yard shot with ease.

The biggest factors are going to be the environmental factors, wind, rain, etc... and they are big ones in your area. Also the quality of your ammo is a big one.

I use a Swarovski Z6 5-30x50 and it has multiple lines (zero + 50,150, 250, 350 yards) on a calm day with good ammo I can get 2-3 inch groups at 300 yards with my Savage 10. With cheap ammo I can't even get on paper.
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Old March 30, 2013, 08:38 AM   #52
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Get a SAKO GREY WOLF or HUNTER STAINLESS in the 7mag and you will be set!
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Old March 30, 2013, 10:59 AM   #53
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If you want to play at longer ranges loose the 150 gr. The 150 doesn't fair to well in higher winds. Look for a higher BC like that from the 175 Berger or the 180 JLK.

The velocity is nice from the 150 but at longer ranges velocity is not the name of the game, it's wind.
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Old March 30, 2013, 11:15 AM   #54
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Quote:
In December I went stalking red hinds, it was a lovely calm blue sky afternoon. I shot a red hind in the neck at 40 yards roughly. She filled the scope completely she was that close. I shot her in the neck and she went down like a ton of bricks, behind her was her calf and it was at 100 yards. I placed the bullet in its chest and fired with a killing shot. I then looked for the rest of the deer and they'd moved up to a hill out at 200 yards. There was a 2 year old hind (roughly) I shot it in the ribs and knocked the bottom 3rd of her heart off.
First off, I don't really believe you took 3 deer by yourself all in an afternoon. Secondly, what are you doing hunting calves?
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Old March 30, 2013, 12:39 PM   #55
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Handler, I dont really get your point. Why are you even trying to compare $400 rifles to $2K rifles? I know my Chevrolet is not a Mercedes Benz, but I dont want a Mercedes Benz. I have some custom built bench rest rifles that I am confident would hurt your feelings. I also have a pile of Savages, Remingtons, Winchesters, Weatherby MarkV's and Vanguards, Howas's, Cz's, surplus Mausers, and my newest addition a Ruger American. They all have their place and function. I enjoy shooting every one of them. The American is more accurate than any of my 9 Mark V's. I would put several of those Savages up against anything of equal weight. They are ugly but very accurate at 1k yards. For the record, I think Ruger's M77 quality is sub par to an import made from beer cans. I had a .22-250 m77 with a bent action. I have one of their 6ppc's that is supposed to be a factory bench rest rifle that wont hit crud. Its literally a 3/4" at 100 rifle. That flat sucks for what the rifle is supposed to be. I plan on re-barreling it later this year.

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Old March 30, 2013, 01:00 PM   #56
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Dragline45, believe what you want. Making a statement like that about someone you've never met is ridiculous!!! You don't know any history about me or my up bringing. Do you know the laws and conservation of Scotland. Maybe shooting Calves in America is illegal is it ?? I don't know.....

We have a certain head count of stags and hinds to cull per estate over here. My father is a Gamekeeper and I've been shooting since I was 6....I'm 35 in 3 weeks...believe me I shot 2 hinds and a calf that evening. Why would I lie ???

The hind that I said I wounded as it turned out once we got her home and inspected the beast from inside it was a killing shot and she wasn't going much further but I took the 300 yard shot as a security measure. It was getting dark and another 50 yard run and she was going to be over the hill and out of sight.
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Old March 30, 2013, 01:14 PM   #57
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Well hey, if you did take 3 deer in one afternoon by yourself that's impressive and my hats off to you. But it's tough to take someones word over the internet when you have never met them, so excuse my skepticism. Wasn't aware you were in Scotland, should have put two and two together by your username, but I believe in most states here in the US it is illegal to hunt calves. In fact I believe shooting a doe with her calves following is illegal in some states, even if you leave the calves alone.
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Old March 30, 2013, 01:37 PM   #58
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My only point was that the Tikka shouldn't cost more than a Savage, or a MDL 700, or a Howa, not that it was in any way inferior, just over priced IMO.

I think the Savage, Tikka, and Vantage are ingenious modern designs. I honestly think Sako cut more corners, than the others, but didn't pass on as much stuff in the receiver. I should probably get over it, but drilled out bar stock. just bothers me. MDL 700 is similar, but looks more, well traditional.

I have had Mdl700's without any issues, was real fond of them. In 1976, I started shooting and reloading my first centerfire magnum rifle. A MDL700 I found at going out of business sale at Gibson's deptment store, in Gulfport,Ms. $119, They had an Interarms MKX, in 7MAG also, for the same price. I thought the MDL 700 was all there was then. These rifles will or can be made to do anything you want them to. A 700 can with some smithing be made competitive with anything. You can also buy a rifle, for not too much more than you spent on upgrading, a rifle that will do what you want, as is.

The rifle I ended up with, yep it cost almost $2000, would have if there was sales tax in Montana, first group down the bore with first stab handloads could be covered with a dime. I'm snowbirding on the MS coast, the Siberia of rifle supplies, so I have had to do everything from scratch. I was surprised and delighted. I know it sounds like I'm boasting, but I always wanted a very accurate varmint type rifle, I now I have one and am learning how to use it. I studied many rifles, and bought the one I wanted in just the chambering I wanted to play with, 6.5-284 Norma.
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Old March 30, 2013, 01:45 PM   #59
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Hi Dragline45, thats ok If you see a hind in the autumn and she has a calf but the mother (hind) is thin or old you have the good reason to cull her. She would probably die during the winter anyway. I shot a hind a few years back and she had 3 teeth left. She was that thin when we went to collect her my dad said just leave her.....she was skin and bone. Thats the sort of deer you look to kill....either barron deer who cant take calf, thin and old....if its for the pot then a yearling is nice

Stags we tend to try and take out old fellas or switches , there stag killers with there bad heads

Ps.3 deer is my record
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Old March 30, 2013, 04:45 PM   #60
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Scottish Highlander
…With the 308 I used to use 125 grain shop bought but I have now moved up to 150 grain reloads to try longer shots. On a normal day stalking your dealing with wind in Scotland so the heavier round helps.
Be aware that as far as wind goes, it's only velocity and ballistic coefficient that matters, as ballistic coefficient already takes weight into account. So you can have a smaller diameter and lighter bullet match or beat the wind drift of a larger diameter and heavier bullet if its ballistic coefficient is equal or higher and if the velocity is equal or higher.

All the ballistic coefficient does is scale the aerodynamic ability to retain velocity and resist wind to that of a 1 inch diameter, 1 lb reference projectile at the same velocity. The idea is that if a bullet has a BC of .500, it's half as good at retaining velocity against drag and at bucking wind as the reference projectile is at the same velocity. If the BC is .333, then it's 1/3 as good, etc. So as long as both bullets are compared to the same size and shape reference projectile and at the same velocity, then the factors of shape and weight are already allowed for.

The only place the system comes apart is when the reference projectile shape is different from the actual bullet shape, then the BC will change with velocity because the different shapes have different drag coefficients at different velocities. This is usually the case, as the number you are usually given by bullet makers is for the G1 shape reference projectile BC at or near a typical muzzle velocity, only. That's actually not a very close match to modern bullet shapes, so you find Sierra, for example, giving you different BC's at different velocities, and Berger giving you G7 BC's in addition to the standard G1's, so you have a better matching shape to compare to, allowing one BC to work across the range of velocities pretty well.

In your .308, if you launch a 125 grain flat base bullet with a BC of .28 at 3000 fps, at 300 yards a 30 mph wind will move it 33 inches. A shot perfectly centered in the sights will move 5 inches and be outside a 10" circle a 123 yards. But if you launch a 180 grain boattail with a BC of .5 at 2600 fps, at 300 yards it will be off 21 inches, and won't leave a centered 10" circle until 150 yards.

Anyway, you can see that you want to look not only at the chambering but at what velocities you can get and what bullet BC's are available that will stabilize in your gun's barrel twist rate.
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Last edited by Unclenick; March 30, 2013 at 04:50 PM.
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Old March 30, 2013, 04:56 PM   #61
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My god Unclenick you really sound like you know your stuff

I could sit in a room and listen to you all night....talking gun stuff of coarse

Some of what you just wrote sounds like really interesting stuff and I will print your post and try to research your knowledge a bit to sort the science bit out in my head a bit more. The choice of bullet will be easier then I think....thanks very much
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Old March 30, 2013, 05:11 PM   #62
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You're welcome. I wanted to bring that to your attention because there are some higher BC's available in some 7 mm bullets. Also, a lot of 6.5 mm bullets have high BC's, which is why the 6.5-284 Norma became a darling of the F-Class 1000 yard shooters. They can scoot a 142 grain Matchking out fast enough to match the magnum .30's with much heavier bullets without incurring more recoil than a .308. Sometimes they are referred to as "laser-like", but be aware the penalty for pushing larger quantities of slower powder down a narrower bore is about half the peak accuracy bore life of a .308.

Use the ballistics calculators at the free on line JBM Ballistics site already linked to. At the bottom of the page is a stability calculator if you are unsure about the combination of a particular bullet with a particular barrels rifling pitch.
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Old March 30, 2013, 06:49 PM   #63
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Dragline, I dont know about deer in Scotland, but I usually take 4 to 6 whitetails on closing day in Georgia. Three is definitely doable if their deer are anything like White tails.
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Old March 30, 2013, 10:58 PM   #64
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Scottish Highlander- You made a good choice by sticking with the .308. For the stag at 200 yards and under its as good as anything else you could get.

If you still get the itch for another rifle someday, (you will) look at some of the smaller, flatter shooting calibers. Might come in handy If you ever get an opportunity for a longer range hunt. Although the .308 is a good long range round as well. Some to consider might be .270, 6.5 creedmoor, .25-06, .257 wby (if you can afford the ammo) just to name a few
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Old March 30, 2013, 11:27 PM   #65
trg42wraglefragle
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In New Zealand they used to pay people to shoot deer as there numbers were out of control and were just wrecking the place, and shooting three in one day would be a piece of cake.
To say that socially, environmentally and ecologically Scotland and America are a different would be a massive understatement.

I'd also just stick to your 308, and like Unclenick also pointed out, bullet selection will have a huge difference to wind drift characteristics.
But in 30-40mph winds any shot with any caliber is not going to be an easy one.

Which part of Scotland do you live in?
I've heard that to hunt deer in England and Wales can be a difficult exercise, as its either hard to find spots to hunt them, or people charge you to do so.
But Scotland has deer galore.

Have you been to shootforum.com, its a UK based forum, and is a lot different to this one, with most of the articles/threads being a lot more relevant to you, not surprising seeings as 99% of people here are American.
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Old March 31, 2013, 03:56 AM   #66
Scottish Highlander
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Trg, here is 2 pics. One is of a good stag I shot last Autumn and a snap shot of the moor land I stalk. I live 50 miles north of Inverness right up in the top of Scotland.
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File Type: jpg mob pics 313.jpg (35.7 KB, 39 views)
File Type: jpg mob pics 194.jpg (242.1 KB, 39 views)

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Old March 31, 2013, 04:04 AM   #67
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This is a hind and calf I shot in 2011 and another view of the land
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File Type: jpg mob pics 308.jpg (241.8 KB, 32 views)
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Old March 31, 2013, 05:13 AM   #68
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Scottish Highlander, I don't hunt, just a personal preference. Reading the posts, based on your original question/query, so very interesting. The members of this group are so very knowledgeable.

The views across that wild landscape, awesome. I presume your deer would be butchered, and off to the freezer? That would make sense to me.

Just as well you are communicating by the written word! Jocks are hard to understand! Now Scousers, that's the Queens English!
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Old March 31, 2013, 08:51 AM   #69
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Highlander, if I ever win the lotto, I will come to Scotland to hunt red stag, and when I do I'll bring my 7mm rem mag, and we'll shoot every bullet they let me bring.
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Old March 31, 2013, 12:08 PM   #70
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Scottish Highlander Why not pick up a 6.5x55 for hunting. Its easy on the shoulder and great rifles avalible in europe. For a handloader is a smart choice. If I was a younger hunter today my first choice would be a 6.5mm not my 308 and 7mm rm. With the bullet designs out there today you just don't need a faster harder hitting cartidges. .
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Old March 31, 2013, 12:29 PM   #71
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Scott, that is some very pretty country! Congrats on the kills.
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Old March 31, 2013, 12:37 PM   #72
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Quote:
you just don't need a faster harder hitting cartidges.
What???
I'm an American sir...and we just don't say things like that!
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Old March 31, 2013, 01:21 PM   #73
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Thanks everyone, it is very bonny up here and I certainly dont take it for granted. I am going to take Unclenicks advice and look into the science of the projectile part a bit more to combat windy days and ohhh lord we do get some

On a windy day you are going to get drift on your shot but the wind helps with the stalk too so its good and bad really. On a flat calm day in the winter here an hour before dark you can walk out the hill with the wind on your back and as dusk comes in and the cold air its swung right round by 180 deg and is then on your face. Its good to know the habbits of the land your working.

On the rifle front I think I am going to get one for sure but the 308 Tikka is staying with me and I'll take Unclenicks advice and improve the loads and practice to get a good relationship going with the rifle. The 7mm is a possibility for a second but if the 308 is as heavy a rifle I need for red stalking then there is no need to go bigger really. The 223 or a 22-250 is a strong contender I think but I'll need to check the laws in Scotland to see if its legal to cull deer with these as there is a min legal caliber. How do the 223 and the 22-250 compare together. I know someone who swears by his 22-250 and its a fast fast bullet I'm led to believe with a flat trajectory
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Old March 31, 2013, 01:38 PM   #74
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Scotland

For roe deer, where the bullet must weigh at least 50 grains AND have a minimum muzzle velocity of 2,450 feet per second AND a minimum muzzle energy of 1,000 foot pounds may be used.

For all deer of any species - the bullet must weigh at least 100 grains AND have a minimum muzzle velocity of 2,450 feet per second AND a minimum muzzle energy of 1,750 foot pounds.

It must be stressed that all these figures are the minimum legal requirement.

For all deer stalking the bullet must be of a type designed to expand/deform on impact.

This is the laws in scotland through the BASC regulator of laws.
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Old March 31, 2013, 01:50 PM   #75
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The .30-06 S, the .300 WM, and the .300 RUM.
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