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Old April 9, 2013, 12:22 AM   #51
tahunua001
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this is an interesting thread... I actually see a lot of guys getting angry over what is essentially the 2nd amendment at it's finest. open carry, the ability to possess and maintain a firearm on your person WITHOUT a license or permit as a prerequisite. it is about as far from infringement as you can get really. a concealed carry permit does allow you to do so discreetly but open carry can be just as much of a deterrent.

say you have a van full of punks ready to knock off a store and just as they are about to bumrush the door they see a group of guys like the OP describes, wearing camo and flashing guns on their hips, do you honestly think that those guys are not going to think twice before going through with a heist?

ok that is a highly hypothetical situation but the general idea remains. in a society where people actually execute their right to open carry, the perception of firearms ownership among the general public becomes much heavier, it becomes much more apparent just how many people have firearms and aren't afraid to use them. this would be a serious deterrent for premeditated violent crime because it would just go to show that there really is no such thing as a 'safe place' for crime.

any guess why schools and ironically military bases have become the hot spot of choice for deranged lunatics?
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Old April 9, 2013, 01:06 AM   #52
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tahunua001
open carry, the ability to possess and maintain a firearm on your person WITHOUT a license or permit as a prerequisite.
What you describe is Constitutional Carry. Open carry is simply carrying a weapon where it can be easily visible.

Quote:
Originally Posted by tahunua001
say you have a van full of punks ready to knock off a store and just as they are about to bumrush the door they see a group of guys like the OP describes, wearing camo and flashing guns on their hips, do you honestly think that those guys are not going to think twice before going through with a heist?

ok that is a highly hypothetical situation but the general idea remains. in a society where people actually execute their right to open carry, the perception of firearms ownership among the general public becomes much heavier, it becomes much more apparent just how many people have firearms and aren't afraid to use them. this would be a serious deterrent for premeditated violent crime because it would just go to show that there really is no such thing as a 'safe place' for crime.
I agree, this is a hypothetical situation. Unfortunately, the evidence of OC deterring crime is as sparse to non-existent as the evidence suggesting OCers are the first targets.


Quote:
Originally Posted by tahunua001
any guess why schools and ironically military bases have become the hot spot of choice for deranged lunatics?
I think we can all agree that Gun Free Zones are not safe, and that no sign keeps people from carrying a gun- regardless of one's intention. How many times have we seen posts from CC folks (of whom I am one) suggesting that someone carry a weapon concealed despite the property owner's preferences (i.e. "concealed means concealed.")
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Old April 11, 2013, 02:12 PM   #53
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perhaps I am blessed to live in Idaho where we like our guns but the way I understood it most open carry states work the same. as long as it's visible on your person, you don't need a permit... then again Texas is the only state I've paid much attention to that is also Open carry.

apparently we are constitutional carry states?
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Old April 11, 2013, 05:08 PM   #54
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apparently we are constitutional carry states?
No, Constitutional carry is open carry or concealed carry, your choice, without a permit.
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Old April 11, 2013, 05:15 PM   #55
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Open Carry concerns???


Nah. Here in Texas I hope they allow it and some 'Doc Holliday' guy comes into a convenience store while some Yankee anti-gun transplant who just moved down for a good job (cause there are none where they came from.)

Love to see the expression on their face when 'Doc' taps on the ivory handle of his six shooter.

Maybe then they will GO HOME.

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Old April 11, 2013, 06:22 PM   #56
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I applaud them for exercising their right to carry.
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Old April 11, 2013, 06:48 PM   #57
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You know, we're all in the same fraternity. We should be sticking together.
IM[rarely humble]O is a very dangerous attitude. It's the same mentality that mutated the national unions into their current form, and is in the process of destroying both political parties. When you blindly support other people actions because they are "members of the same club" you wind up loosing touch with the rest of the world, and weakening your overall position.

Personally, I think open carry is a right and should be legal - I do it myself when hunting/hiking. However, I also am willing to admit that a large segment of people who open carry do it to make a statement, and to get a rise out of people. Doing that is tasteless, and won't do us any good in the long run.
If it's this hotly debated among gun enthusiasts and 2A supporters, how exactly do you think it's perceived by the public at large?
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Old April 11, 2013, 07:07 PM   #58
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My state of Indiana is silent on the OC VS CC debate. So therefore OC is legal for people holding their License To Carry. I OC regularly but if I am with my wife and kids, I like to CC. The other day a friend and I were comming back from my in laws shooting range. We were both OCing and wearing camo long sleeves. We stopped in at a fast food resturant to eat and only got a few looks. We also were complemented by several older gentleman. I like to use it as a time for public education if possible. The mainstream only sees cops and bad guys as people with guns. The only way they will become more comfortable with guns is if they see law abiding citizens with them in a legal manor. That is at least my opinion.
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Old April 11, 2013, 09:23 PM   #59
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Originally Posted by JimmyR
I agree, this is a hypothetical situation. Unfortunately, the evidence of OC deterring crime is as sparse to non-existent as the evidence suggesting OCers are the first targets.
Absolutely true. Which resolves nothing, really. If it's legal and proper, what is the difficulty with it? I personally agree that anyone open carrying to prove a point, "to get in people's faces" (not JimmyR's quote) would be best advised to knock it off. But there are lot's of us who aren't about getting in people's faces.

I once carried openly because that was my only legal option. Now, that's not so much a problem. If I choose to leave my jacket in the truck, that's not a problem, either. I love Virginia!
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Old April 12, 2013, 10:59 AM   #60
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IM[rarely humble]O is a very dangerous attitude. It's the same mentality that mutated the national unions into their current form, and is in the process of destroying both political parties. When you blindly support other people actions because they are "members of the same club" you wind up loosing touch with the rest of the world, and weakening your overall position.

Personally, I think open carry is a right and should be legal - I do it myself when hunting/hiking. However, I also am willing to admit that a large segment of people who open carry do it to make a statement, and to get a rise out of people. Doing that is tasteless, and won't do us any good in the long run.
If it's this hotly debated among gun enthusiasts and 2A supporters, how exactly do you think it's perceived by the public at large?
Nobody is condoning bad behavior. All I am was saying is, we need to support each other rather than criticize for one's method of carry as long as it's legal.
People may not agree about the tactical aspect of open carry, and that's fine.

As far as trying to ''get a rise'' out of the public, I've never witnessed such an act, so I can't comment on your ''assumption''. I do however admit, one of my reasons to OC is to project the attitude that guns are not ''evil''. I guess this would be inline with your, ''making a statement''.

I don't blindly follow anyone. Just because somebody is wearing camo and open carrying, I don't see that as a cause for ''concern'' which the OP alluded to. While that MO doesn't fit my personal taste, should we restrict that person's attire? Should we insist on level III retention holsters for everyone? I think not. Do I think a good retention is best, absolutely.

Only on one occassion have I ever had a problem with the public. It was a pure case of someone sticking their nose into my business. Some people just have nothing better to do.
Sure, I've noticed someone looking at me funny.
I've also had some very friendly conversations with curious members of the public. It becomes an educational tool.
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Old April 12, 2013, 05:48 PM   #61
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I dislike painting with a broad brush, but in my personal experience those who openly carry in cities generally fit the image of "Rambo wannabe."

If carrying a firearm makes a fellow feel ten feet tall, he probably should grow up a bit more before carrrying one.

I have never felt that carefully conmceling my weapons in any way degraded my "manhood."
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Old April 12, 2013, 09:45 PM   #62
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Here in Michigan open carry is legal. I have no probelm with it considered it but rather fly under the radar with the general public so concealed it is unless I am on the family property up north then I will open carry. But thats a western holster and my hog leg (.45lc)
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Old April 12, 2013, 10:08 PM   #63
tahunua001
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I dislike painting with a broad brush, but in my personal experience those who openly carry in cities generally fit the image of "Rambo wannabe."

If carrying a firearm makes a fellow feel ten feet tall, he probably should grow up a bit more before carrrying one.

I have never felt that carefully conmceling my weapons in any way degraded my "manhood."
and I suppose you feel ten feet tall when you go out to the slums unarmed? granted most people that open carry don't do so in the projects but the danger is always there when you are out in public. the human race certainly hasn't gotten more civilized and higher populations increases the probability ever higher.

as for concealing not hurting your manhood, it may not kick you there but it does hurt your pocketbook, quite a bit in some cases. if all a fellow has is a glock 17 then it's pretty dang hard to conceal regardless of the man's size. some manage, others fail miserably in the attempt so if you don't already own a compact you have to run out and buy a smaller gun that's easier to conceal, there's $350 or ore right there. then there's training. anyone know what a NRA self defense course costs nowadays? I'll tell you, NRA PPDIH course in my area, would require 45 minute commute 2 ways over 2 day period and costs $98 per person. then there is your license, there's another $25 easily. then there's a nice quality conceal carry holster there's an additional $45 at least.

on the other hand in an open carry state, all you need is a gun of any size, and a holster, a $15 uncle mikes or heck... Springfield XDs come with a free one. some people don't carry concealed just because of the serious financial hurdles they face, college students, fixed income parents, there are a lot of people that can't afford to jump through the hoops that still feel the need to carry and in turn do so by open carrying. I don't look at someone like that and think they are a rambo wannabe. I see a person that wants nothing more than to protect their family and do so with the best they can afford.
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Old April 12, 2013, 10:53 PM   #64
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I prefer CC even though in tx I can Open Cary (LEO) when off duty. Those in those open Cary states if they can legal and choose to, more power to them. As long as its our right and that's what we like doing. I hate pulling people over and asking do they have weapons in the car and they tell me NO. ( for the ones telling the truth). Which is most of the time. I will give a little break to those with conceiled permit. As long as they don't get an attitude.
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Old April 13, 2013, 09:48 PM   #65
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tahu,

Do you go to the mall, or the theatre with a large handgun strapped on your hip??

I have a sports car with a rather large engine. I do not have an offensive, loud, "in your face" muffler on it because I choose not to intentionally offend other motorists and pedestrians.

I carry a 9MM SIG, usually in a Galco shoulder holster under a jacket or sweater. I do so because I choose not to make others who fear fireams uncomfortable. They haven't offended me, why would I intentionally offend them?

The sight of a firearm on the hip is a source of consternation to a large portion of the public. Why would you intentionally make other people uncomfortable?

I suppose that in my value system it isn't a question of having a "right" to do so, as much as it is a question of being a courteous person that will try to avoid offending others unnecessarily. I take no satisfaction in being "in your face."

You and your wife have a legal and moral right to have sexual relations. But would you do so on a church pew or in the mall?

Concern for the feelings and sensitivities of others makes friends. Lack of concern makes enemies.

And in the poitical environment of today, do we really need to be making enemies??
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Old April 13, 2013, 10:51 PM   #66
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If you have the right to and are legal. I don't see a problem. Different people are different not good or bad. As far as not offending anyone- do you pray before you eat at fast food. I do-I have a right to and don't care if I offend anyone or not. People who don't believe, I well it's their choice. We're different.
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Old April 13, 2013, 11:24 PM   #67
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The sight of a firearm on the hip is a source of consternation to a large portion of the public. Why would you intentionally make other people uncomfortable?
This is obviously do to the Tamping down of carrying firearms in public and was never an issue 100 years ago.
As far as that goes i see people do things all the time that should be offensive to me as i try to raise my children differently.
It just seems that people are going to be offended and even scared by what they see, but if i must get use to or get over their offenses, they can mine as well as long as it's within the law.
Imagine if you will, the people who all bear arms to do so openly. Would people be more scared after a year or two or would they relax and see the fact that many people carry and they are not as dangerous as once perceived because they are the ones obeying the law? Maybe even help the cause of gun rights by responsible citizens in the eyes of those who fear them.

I believe crime would be affected to the extent that many people walking around with sidearms is a deterrent to certain people and probably drive them more to planning. Maybe give them pause.

Then again how dangerous is your sidearm in the open? Maybe tempting for someone to attempt to get close enough to Take it from you before you know what they were up too. That's why we are more alert when possible.

For now it leaves so much to theory and discussion and us to wonder.

Maybe a nice balance of concealed and open. Reminder that times are changing to the criminal mind. Leave them thinking, I know how often i see them openly, who has one concealed. The world is watching thought running through his mind.
Either way it's a Pro vs con and more likely ends up being a preference for those that have a choice leaving those that disagree time to rethink it or readjust.

For a long time here in Ohio we had little to no concealed ability without breaking law. Open carry was not liked by LEO where i lived and did their best to discourage it.

With that being said, they had little trust in the public and here we are wondering how much we trust each other. We need to give them a reason to trust us....
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Old April 13, 2013, 11:30 PM   #68
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Praying before a meal cannot be perceived as threatening. Yes, I do pray, and to the best of my knowledge it has never offended anyone.

If and when it does, I'll pray silently. One can live one's life normally and still pay a bit of attention to being couteous.

Courtesy costs me nothing, but the rewards are beyond measure.
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Old April 13, 2013, 11:52 PM   #69
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Sometimes just a plaque can be threatening, the Ten Commandments had to be removed from Federal buildings and Prayer removed from schools-we no longer want to offend anyone. I stated earlier I choose to carry conceiled (off duty) where it's legal some choose to carry open. I don't see where it should offend anyone, if [someone] was being raped maybe this openly carrying person would come to her rescue if no other person was there or so on an so on. If I chose to open carry and legal, I wouldn't care who I offended. Have a good evening. PS- If I were eating out and prayed to myself and people next to me said that they were unbelievers and I offended them, they could leave for as far as I'm concerned I don't really care. Offended or not its still my right,

Last edited by Vanya; April 14, 2013 at 01:17 PM. Reason: removed point of contention.
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Old April 14, 2013, 09:01 AM   #70
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I thought in America they carried firearms for self defence of themselves or families. Not for posing looking for phrase attention or making political statements.

Apart from that why give a possible attacker the heads up and give him the advantage doesn't make sense to me.
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Old April 14, 2013, 09:07 AM   #71
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I thought in America they carried firearms for self defence of themselves or families. Not for posing looking for phrase attention or making political statements.
You're right and I agree with you. It should stay concealed unless you're required to do otherwise. If it's a sporting event where it's allowed and/or you're out shooting, etc etc..It's not a problem. If it's being carrying on your person for defense. Yes I agree.

Quote:
Apart from that why give a possible attacker the heads up and give him the advantage doesn't make sense to me.

I agree 100% there too. The criminals already have the drop on you being the instigator/attacker to begin with. Why make yourself a target? The one that they should take out first?
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Old April 14, 2013, 09:42 AM   #72
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Buck, the quesrtion is not wether or not it should offend anyone. Quite obviously, to us at least, it shouldn't.

Nevertheless, it often does.

And when voters are offended, they will vote against those who offend therm.

And what do we gain with the attitude of "By golly, I can do it, so I'm a-gonna do it, whether you like it or not?" Bearing in mind that those folks write letters to their elected officials just as we do. And they vote.

To use a quaint old expression, when we open carry, we are shooting ourselves in the foot.
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Old April 14, 2013, 09:53 AM   #73
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Ben Dover (hilarious name btw, for those who don't get it. Say it out loud)

Was going to quote you earlier but I was sidetracked.

I agree with you on almost everything you're saying. Particularly post #65. I also agree it's shooting ourselves in the foot.

Normal sheeple associate an openly visible firearm with law enforcement and usually look for a badge shortly after viewing the firearm on the hip. (which is the purpose of a badge, officers check each others ID's. Not badges.)
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Old April 14, 2013, 11:01 AM   #74
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" then again Texas is the only state I've paid much attention to that is also Open carry. "
Sorry, Texas is not open carry. I live in Texas. We have licensed concealed carry. Open carry is in committee down in Austin, but it doesn't look like they are going to do much more than sit on it again. They did lessen the # of hrs of instruction you need for a chl, and for inadvertently displaying a concealed weapon, but we ain't open carry. I hope and wish we become open carry, Oklahoma is, but not yet.
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Old April 14, 2013, 12:14 PM   #75
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I like CC carry. It has more pros than cons, for me. I don't think just because I seem someone OC they are showing out if it was legal. Just me. I believe do what you feel (legal) don't worry about what people think and hopefully you'll never need it in a self defense situation. But if I ever did leave mine and things went south I'm gonna hope that one guy who is OC comes to my rescue.
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