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Old March 25, 2013, 08:15 PM   #1
kc_hhsl
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FoxNews Video - Ammo Shortage

Take a look at this video that I found on FoxNews regarding the ammo shortage. It is interesting ... maybe more people need to watch it and quit hoarding the ammo.

http://video.foxnews.com/v/224589468...tcmp=obnetwork
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Old March 25, 2013, 08:53 PM   #2
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The current overreaction of the public is a sign of the times. Low quality information is not being vetted properly. Makes it easy to understand why people go off to live in a commune waiting for a space ship to come and get them. I am personally glad that the government is not talking about limiting food (just an example).
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Old March 26, 2013, 05:27 AM   #3
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They are only telling a half truth.

This is why. The DHS claim for the large ammo contract is that the large ammunition contract saves taxpayers money so the government can purchase "training ammo" at cheaper prices.

When did cheap training ammo include hollow point defense rounds?

Isn't defense ammo at least 30 percent more expensive on the low end to about three times more expensive for high end hollow point ammo?

This is about like the slaughterer caressing the sheep while he slits it's throat.
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Old March 26, 2013, 07:46 AM   #4
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When did cheap training ammo include hollow point defense rounds?
Practice with what you carry.
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Old March 26, 2013, 07:54 AM   #5
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Quote:
They are only telling a half truth.

This is why. The DHS claim for the large ammo contract is that the large ammunition contract saves taxpayers money so the government can purchase "training ammo" at cheaper prices.

When did cheap training ammo include hollow point defense rounds?

Isn't defense ammo at least 30 percent more expensive on the low end to about three times more expensive for high end hollow point ammo?

This is about like the slaughterer caressing the sheep while he slits it's throat.
I could see DHS practicing with hollowpoints. As the ancient Buddha once said: "nothing's too good for me if someone else is paying!"

The key factor I'd really like to see is what size were the orders in 2010, 2011, and 2012. If the orders aren't significantly bigger, than thats just government bureaucracy (should be taken to the woodshed on HPs vs. nonHP cost for practice, but that will never happen).
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Old March 26, 2013, 08:34 AM   #6
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I think the real story isn't counting the number of rounds bought by the Federal Government, but instead looking at the increase in size of Federal Government agencies with police powers. That grew some 30% since the current administration took power. You might think that everyone who works for the Feds doesn't need a gun, but I'm sure you won't convince them of that. Sure we lowly citizens are buying as much ammo as we can afford when we can, because as Government increases in size, so does their ammo requirements. At least that's how I see it.
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Old March 26, 2013, 09:09 AM   #7
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Very good point cvc.
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Old March 26, 2013, 11:24 AM   #8
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It's no different then the Military, you buy and practice with what you carry and shoot with. The best way to know your weapons work well with your ammo is to use the same for both. And buy buying all the same type of ammo then you are instituting an increase in production which helps the manufacturer lower it's costs of manufacturing allowing a better price.

I do see that cvc944 has a point, but it's less a point about government officials with police powers and more of a point that government is gust getting too big and into way to much of the State's rights. The police powers thing just comes along for the ride.

We need more States to stand up and fight for their own rights and push the feds back over the fence. And we need Congressmen that will back this and band with their States that they represent.
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Old March 26, 2013, 11:58 AM   #9
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I think the real story isn't counting the number of rounds bought by the Federal Government, but instead looking at the increase in size of Federal Government agencies with police powers. That grew some 30% since the current administration took power. You might think that everyone who works for the Feds doesn't need a gun, but I'm sure you won't convince them of that. Sure we lowly citizens are buying as much ammo as we can afford when we can, because as Government increases in size, so does their ammo requirements. At least that's how I see it.
CVC, I agree this is the real problem. We have what now 150,000 or more armed federal agents/employees? What is the number of troops deployed during the height of the Afghan war? This is of course IN ADDITION to all the local police of city, county and state levels.

Practically every dept seems to have its own armed agents and even SWAT teams: FDA, Educ, IRS, etc. in addition to the ones we would expect such as as Treasury, Justice, DEA, ATF.

Looks like that civilian defense force is approaching the size of the military, and probably gets a WHOLE lot more training rounds per person than the military or local police.
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Old March 26, 2013, 12:04 PM   #10
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Something doesn't add up.

First, the local police departments around here are happy to practice with the cheapest ammo they can find. They don't need to burn up the expensive JHP stuff when they're just burning rounds down range. I don't think the DHS agencies do, either, and I doubt very much they were practicing in bulk with the premium spread a year or three ago.

Second, if the DHS IS practicing with their expensive carry ammo, then why is there none of the cheap stuff in any of the stores, or even at the distributors? I've been making the rounds of local gun shops. All in one geographic area, so for all I know they all get ammo from the same distributor, but none of them can even get ammo. They can't get Winchester USA. They can't get Federal American Eagle. They can't get Speer Lawman. They can't get Remington UMC. If the distributors don't have it and can't get it, that's not because the hoarders and the newbies are draining the supply out of the market. The supply is being sucked out before it even reaches the market.
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Old March 26, 2013, 12:09 PM   #11
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You might think that everyone who works for the Feds doesn't need a gun, but I'm sure you won't convince them of that.
You do know that this is actually a gross overstatement right? Just taking a wild stab at a guess I would put the percentage of Federal employees who are armed as part of their job at no greater then 30% of the total and that might be high. The Government is so huge and there are so many jobs positions, and most really are just drones, I work with a bunch of them.

With the sequester on you should see how empty the parking lot here get's on furlough days.
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Old March 26, 2013, 12:09 PM   #12
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Funny but true story....

Years ago I watched a panel discussion on TV with a group of former US Atty Generals.
Richard Thornburgh, the former Gov of PA, told the group about a incident he had while AG.
An aide showed him a photo of a group wearing camo uniforms carrying high tech military weapons.
"Who are these guys?" AG Thornburgh asked. "Navy SEALs?", "US Marshals?".

No, the aide replied, they are from the US Bureau of Land Management.

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Old March 26, 2013, 12:20 PM   #13
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First, the local police departments around here are happy to practice with the cheapest ammo they can find. They don't need to burn up the expensive JHP stuff when they're just burning rounds down range. I don't think the DHS agencies do, either, and I doubt very much they were practicing in bulk with the premium spread a year or three ago.
I can tell you with certainty that the FBI practices with the same hollowpoint ammo that they carry. It doesn't seem unreasonable that other Federal agencies would do the same.

Quote:
If the distributors don't have it and can't get it, that's not because the hoarders and the newbies are draining the supply out of the market. The supply is being sucked out before it even reaches the market.
Did you consider that there was only a limited amount of that premium defensive ammo in the pipeline to begin with, and that the "hoarders and newbies" did suck it out of the market, and the manufacturers just haven't been able to replace it in quantity yet? Premium SD ammo is gone off the shelves NOW, but back at the beginning of the shortage, the SD ammo was the only stuff I DID see on the shelves.

None of your observations in the local gun shops are good evidence for the government gobbling up the supply. If that had been case, the "good stuff" would have been the FIRST ammo to disappear, not the last.
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Old March 26, 2013, 12:22 PM   #14
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If we were talking high powered precision rifles than by all means you would need to practice with the exact ammunition you will be using.

However aside from checking on the functioning characteristics of the gun, there is no practical reason why you would need to practice with defense ammo out of a handgun. The point of impact will change only slightly at those close ranges. When you consider the size of the target you are shooting at with a duty handgun the argument for training with hollow points is pretty pathetic.
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Old March 26, 2013, 12:23 PM   #15
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If we were talking high powered precision rifles than by all means you would need to practice with the exact ammunition you will be using.

However aside from checking on the functioning characteristics of the gun, there is no practical reason why you would need to practice with defense ammo out of a handgun. The point of impact will change only slightly at those close ranges. When you consider the size of the target you are shooting at with a duty handgun the argument for training with hollow points is pretty pathetic.
I'm not defending the practice - I'm just saying that it DOES happen, at least with the FBI. Whether it makes sense really isn't relevant.
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Old March 26, 2013, 12:31 PM   #16
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Again, its not their money. Why should they be chintzy?
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Old March 26, 2013, 03:03 PM   #17
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You do know that this is actually a gross overstatement right? Just taking a wild stab at a guess I would put the percentage of Federal employees who are armed as part of their job at no greater then 30% of the total and that might be high.
Only 30%? Good. I feel much better now knowing that only about one in three Feds are buying guns and ammo.
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Old March 26, 2013, 03:21 PM   #18
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again, its not their money. Why should they be chintzy?
because it is my money!
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Old March 26, 2013, 03:38 PM   #19
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so you guys think that DHS agents fire over ten thousand practice rounds a year?
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Old March 26, 2013, 03:50 PM   #20
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cvc944, if you read my previous posts you would see I mostly agree with you in principle. I think the Fed is way too big, I think the Fed is into way to much State business.

Like others I think they are burning way to much of our money, then because they can't get more out of us and get reelected, they just print more making what they haven't taken from me worth less.

But since I am retired Army, a defense contractor on military contracts and work closely with other Federal workers I simple know that they are not all armed. My "guess" was a guess, and if you would feel more comfortable I would almost feel inclined to try and find a more accurate number for you to ponder. But at this point I'll simply forgo that and leave it at a simple "You are wrong, check it yourself next time".
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Old March 26, 2013, 03:51 PM   #21
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Ruthless, my little 250 man Company in Korea in the 80's burned up at least 10,000 a year alone of 5.56mm and probably another 4,000 in 7.62mm in the M60s.

First we had to zero, that was something like 9 rounds + for all 250 of us, ten rounds makes it an easy 2,500 just to zero the rifles. Then we loaded up the mags, basicly a perfect score was 40 hits out of 40 shots so in a perfect world that's 40 times 250 soldiers = 10,000 rounds plus the initial 2,500 for zeroing so that's actuall 12,500 rounds if there were no overages, do overs, miss-fires, whatever. But that's the basic numbers, he is the real important part.

You had to draw more ammo then you would need, and it comes in cases of 840 cartridges per Ammo Can. Let's do some math, 840 x Ammo Cans is 12,600 but like I said, that might be a little light, can't go out light and run out, so you draw 16 and you got 13,440 rounds of 5.56mm Ball ammo.

Now you shoot, it doesn't matter how much you use qualifying, you will shoot every single round, burn it all up, because trying to count and turn in excess ammo is never worth the hassle, so everyone just shoots it up.

So there you go, 250 soldiers go to the range to qualify annually and burn up close to 15,000 rounds a year.

Now let's divide the 15,000 into the 10,000 rounds for DHS you said ?

Or were you meaning 10,000 rounds per agent?

Actually, even then I can see it. Real shooters like our SF guys, they shoot all the time, they get so much ammo and shoot more then you would think. Special action guys really do add a lot to the ammo budget. i bet some of the BP guys do this too.


I think I'll just stop there and let you think more on it.
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Last edited by lcpiper; March 26, 2013 at 04:15 PM.
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Old March 26, 2013, 04:22 PM   #22
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each? Else thats like what a mag a trooper a year.
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Old March 26, 2013, 04:22 PM   #23
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If you do the math there is no way the DHS can reason away the sheer number of ammunition. Now the DHS does not HAVE 2 billion rounds. However they do have ammo in the hundreds of millions stockpiled. We know this from insider information describing the order sizes. They are generally requesting the ammo in tens of millions of rounds purchases. When this happens it puts a massive strain on the companies required to fill the priority orders.

It is typical Obama tactics. Keep the state in a constant panic. Continue to create crisis after crisis to keep his opponents off balance.

Not all their agents are training with this much ammo. To infer they are is beyond ridiculous. Only a few of the more elite units will be training with large amounts of ammo. Regular agents won't be training with more than several hundred rounds if that much.

This is about depriving the market of ammo until something can be done with not only gun control bills moving through the Senate, but the UN SMALL ARMS TREATY. Which is shortly going to be voted on and Obama has given the nod for the ambassador to vote a yes on it.

Pretty much a media blackout on that, Even Alex Jones has been quiet about it over the last several days.
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Old March 26, 2013, 05:12 PM   #24
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The President can't sign on to a Treaty that would impact our Constitutional rights and then just wash his hands and say ... "It's the UN, they decided it and now we have to play along". He would not only be done, he would be gone forever locked in a prison cell. That would be a violation of the trust of his office so profound that it would not be tolerated. He can't get an AWB through Congress why would anyone think he could get away with this kind of back door stuff.

I can understand if you might actually know of these "inside sources", so I won't ask about them. But I will say that if you aren't actually sure of these sources and their info and if you are just passing on conspiracy stuff. Then this is just too weak to waste time on.


And Zinc;

Quote:
each? Else thats like what a mag a trooper a year.
If you followed that math of mine above that's about what we got. Three 3 round mags to zero and 40 rounds to qualify a year per soldier all through the 80s and 90s. Fifty rounds per man per year for the US Army. But it still adds up to huge numbers when you look at how many have to qualify every year not counting the rest that the real shooters get to use.
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Old March 26, 2013, 05:30 PM   #25
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BTW, just a fast check of what DHS organizations most likely have a well armed contingent.

Federal Law Enforcement Training Center
Transportation Security Administration (TSA)
United States Customs and Border Protection (CBP)
United States Immigration and Customs Enforcement (ICE)
United States Coast Guard
Federal Emergency Management Agency (FEMA)
United States Secret Service (USSS)


So these are the biggies. These agencies must have quite a few armed employees.

And then you have some weird ones that are much harder to look into like this one.
http://www.specialresponse.com/addit...es-offered.php

Now this looks like a Private Security Contracting firm that specializes in supplementing the TSA for in-flight security, like the officers they were putting on commercial flights. Now if these guys are actually contracted then the Fed will likely be footing the bill for ammo, etc because they do the same for all our other contracts. Mostly the companies just provide the bodies.
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