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Old March 24, 2013, 03:34 PM   #1
stogiejim
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Glock mags on July 1st in CO

Hey there guys, first post here. Glad to finally be a part of this forum after lurking for so long!

I own a Glock 19 and live in CO. I have 2 15 round magazines for it now. Are they really banning even the15 round mags because with a small mod they can hold more?

Just want to know if I should be buying up a few mags or if this law won't effect Glock 15 round magazines.

Thanks!

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Old March 24, 2013, 05:59 PM   #2
Wrothgar
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Simple answer: Yes, yes you should buy up a few more. Because of the floor plate, it will be illegal.

Of course, the law is completely unenforceable anyway. The mags you currently own will be grandfathered in.

Last edited by Spats McGee; March 24, 2013 at 06:13 PM. Reason: Removing the advocating of violation of law
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Old March 24, 2013, 07:58 PM   #3
carguychris
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Wrothgar
Of course, the law is completely unenforceable anyway. The mags you currently own will be grandfathered in.
As I read it, I agree with Wrothgar. In fact, I would argue that the law is more of a generational phase-out of high-capacity magazines rather than a true ban. Carefully read Section (2)(b) of the law:
Quote:
18-12-302. Large-capacity magazines prohibited - penalties - exceptions.

(1) (a) except as otherwise provided in this section , on and after July 1, 2013, a person who sells , transfers , or possesses a large - capacity magazine commits a class 2 misdemeanor.

<Sections (1)(b) and (1)(c) omitted>

(2) (a) a person may possess a large - capacity magazine if he or she: (I) owns the large - capacity magazine on the effective date of this section; and (II) maintains continuous possession of the large - capacity magazine.

(b) If a person who is alleged to have violated subsection (1) of this section asserts that he or she is permitted to legally possess a large - capacity magazine pursuant to paragraph (a) of this subsection (2), the prosecution has the burden of proof to refute the assertion.
<emphasis mine>

In other words, the prosecution is explicitly required to prove that the magazines are not grandfathered. Since the vast majority of magazines do not carry individual identifying marks, proving this assertion can only be done using one of three four basic tactics:
  1. Directly prove that the person obtained the large-capacity magazine(s) after July 1st, 2013. In most cases, this is a near impossibility in the absence of very damning eyewitness testimony and/or irrefutable documentary evidence.
  2. Demonstrate that no firearm in existence prior to July 1st, 2013 could accept the magazine(s).
  3. Demonstrate that the particular type of magazine did not exist prior to July 1st, 2013.
  4. Demonstrate that the person was not yet born on July 1st, 2013, or at least would have been so young that his or her possession of firearm magazines would be highly unlikely.
The law provides no mechanism for lawful inheritance of firearm magazines, so for a very common firearm like a Glock, #3 #4 is the real stinger.

Some Colorado children may be receiving very peculiar gifts during the next 3 months.

Mandatory disclaimer: I am not a lawyer, nor do I play one on TV. This is not legal advice. Caveat emptor, and YMMV.

[Subsequent edits shown in italics.]
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Last edited by carguychris; March 28, 2013 at 09:48 AM. Reason: One other tactic is possible
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Old March 24, 2013, 08:16 PM   #4
balyon85
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Re: Glock mags on July 1st in CO

Those in the Colorado House and Senate that supported this bill will be replaced in 2014. Once the economic effects of this law take effect it will be repealed, so just have to stock up and store them for a couple of years.

I ordered two more scary 16 round xd mags and plan on buying a couple magazine extenders to make em even scarier.
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Old March 24, 2013, 08:41 PM   #5
stogiejim
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Thanks for the replies everyone.

Now the question remains. Where the heck do I get a 15rd mag for a Glock 19? They're sold out everywhere! The arms list folk want like 50-100 for a magazine. Unreal!
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Old March 24, 2013, 09:38 PM   #6
Tom Servo
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The issue comes a year or two down the road, when someone advances something innocuous and virtually invisible, such as:

Quote:
Amendment 11 to SB 48, the Buy Ribbons for Cute Puppies on Arbor Day Act: alter Section 18-12-302 (2)(b) by striking subsection 2
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Old March 25, 2013, 09:30 AM   #7
Tinner666
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Hmmm. How long will it be before they decide this;
(2) (a) a person may possess a large - capacity magazine if he or she: (I) owns the large - capacity magazine on the effective date of this section; and (II) maintains continuous possession of the large - capacity magazine.
means that two or more are a felony to own??? The way I read it, the law only specifies owning one.
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Old March 27, 2013, 07:51 PM   #8
Colokeb
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Fifteen is legal.

Larger is grandfathered.

Grandfathered can not be transfered.
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Old March 27, 2013, 08:03 PM   #9
KyJim
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Quote:
proving this assertion can only be done using one of three basic tactics:
They could also show that certain modifications in the design were made after the grandfather date. Magpul recently changed their AR-15 mag design just a bit.
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Old March 27, 2013, 10:52 PM   #10
stogiejim
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Keb according to this new BS law, even the glock 15 round mag will become illegal as a small/cheap mod can make it hold more.

I really hope Glock answers the call with an un modifiable 15 round mag.

Then hopefully those ass-hats in office will be gone come 2014.
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Old March 28, 2013, 10:05 AM   #11
carguychris
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Quote:
Originally Posted by KyJim
They could also show that certain modifications in the design were made after the grandfather date.
You are absolutely correct, and I have edited my initial post to reflect this.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tinner666
The way I read it, the law only specifies owning one.
IANAL, but laws grandfathering the ownership of a particular criminalized item are often worded in the singular tense. I believe that such laws are generally understood to indicate that ownership of multiple items is allowed by default, but I could be wrong.
Quote:
Originally Posted by stogiejim
...according to this new BS law, even the glock 15 round mag will become illegal as a small/cheap mod can make it hold more... I really hope Glock answers the call with an un modifiable 15 round mag.
That "illegal and cheap" mod is facilitated by an easily removable floorplate that allows the mag spring and follower to be dropped through the bottom. Virtually all modern pistols use this type of design. This conceivably makes almost all modern semi-auto magazines non-compliant and unlawful for sale in CO, ironically including mags for many pistols that were never offered in a >14rd version, such as my S&W Model 3904 (which is 8+1rd or 9+1rd depending on the type of mag used).

Many older pistol mags use a floorplate that is crimped or even brazed or welded in place, or a mag body that is formed as a single piece. These are generally a PITA to take apart but would theoretically comply with the legal mandate. OTOH it's hard to say how many manufacturers would be willing to retool in order to sell such mags in a single state.

Although this may be bad news for gun buyers in the short term, it could result in the law being thrown out in court as a de facto ban in conflict with D.C. v. Heller. The CO legislature could IMHO easily avoid the conflict by amending the law to strike the "...designed to be readily converted to accept..." language and to outlaw the possession of the necessary conversion parts. Amending the law would be embarrassing but potentially better than the alternative; it will be interesting to see which route the CO General Assembly takes.
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Last edited by carguychris; March 28, 2013 at 01:09 PM. Reason: minor reword...
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Old March 29, 2013, 07:48 AM   #12
Geoff7
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All of my 5.56x45 mags are date stamped (I believe this is because they are milspec and have cage numbers, etc), whereas my M1A 7.62 magazines are not date stamped. I've examined my Glock magazines and can't find a date stamp anywhere on them. Anyone know if Glock date stamps their mags?

Quote:
Now the question remains. Where the heck do I get a 15rd mag for a Glock 19? They're sold out everywhere! The arms list folk want like 50-100 for a magazine. Unreal!
I'm in the same boat. I'm waiting until May or early June in the hopes that the nation-wide panic has died down. They still won't be available for sane prices locally, but larger websites and/or gunbroker will (hopefully) have them for reasonable prices.
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Old March 29, 2013, 08:59 AM   #13
Colokeb
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Stoeg.

We see that in the law. It can not possibly withstand a Court test. Just don't install or carry an extension.

Why for example, then could an AR15 be legal if someone could substitute the FCM parts of a Military AR16.
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Old March 30, 2013, 12:14 AM   #14
Will Beararms
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I hope gunmakers like Glock don't acquiesce to the Colorado Assembly.

I wouldn't hold my breath over the courts or the elections overturning this law. This horse is out of the barn, sadly.
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Old March 30, 2013, 06:48 AM   #15
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The issue will come when crime like murder doesn't suddenly end. Then, they'll say;
"Limiting magazine sizes didn't work yet, so let's limit them all down to 4 rounds and go from there. NYS went to 7 2-3 years ago and it didn't change things, so they went to a 5 round limit. Crime went up, but that's a temporary setback limited to certain states only. Let's got to a 4 round limit and lead the way to a brighter, safer state....Now, does anybody have an explanation on why violent crimes in general went up 400% in the last 3 years?"
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Old March 30, 2013, 06:55 AM   #16
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Then the problem will be called "people are sneaking banned magazines into the state," and the solution will be serial numbers on magazines, registration and background checks.
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