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Old March 24, 2013, 12:03 PM   #26
44 AMP
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White, male, northeastern by birth, northwestern for 36 years. "Marginally educated" by the public school system 40+ years ago, back when children were actully required to learn some things in order to graduate. No college degrees.

In the past 30+ years I have worked with a lot of people who have degrees of one kind or another. What this has taught me is that a piece of paper from some college prooves only that you did not flunk out. It doesn't mean you are intelligent, or even knowledgeable. You may be, but that paper doesn't mean squat, other than that you passed the course.

As for the anti's in the diner, I'd leave them alone. Sure, the best thing would be to open their eyes and their minds to the real world, but the odds are heavy against it. The most likely outcome of that would be their leaving to find a more "friendly" place, costing your diner the business. A less likely, but still possible result would be, as mentioned, them trying to get you kicked out, as you are a "dangerous gun nut", costing the diner your business, and costing you a nice place to hang out.

Its your call, but I no longer have the energy to bother, if they aren't in my face.
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Old March 24, 2013, 12:04 PM   #27
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They should have narrowed it down to (A southern redneck) Should cover it all
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Old March 24, 2013, 12:16 PM   #28
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I was at my local Scheels yesterday and I saw a kid explaining to his girlfriend that those "long clips" on the wall were for "all them machine guns" everybody's been buying. Honestly...
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Old March 24, 2013, 12:23 PM   #29
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Gun Grabbers At The Next Table --

I'm white, southern (redneck), and poor because I own so many guns!
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Old March 24, 2013, 12:33 PM   #30
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That's why when i here people complaining about Piers Morgan and his anti gun views. I think that pro gun people should worry more about what some Americans think about firearms rather than the like of Piers Morgan. You did the right thing and said nothing. Most anti gun people have their minds made up, but that works both ways.

Last edited by manta49; March 24, 2013 at 12:39 PM.
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Old March 24, 2013, 12:42 PM   #31
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The problem as I see it, manta, is that so many Americans get the only infor mation they have from Piers and his ilk, and their own echo chamber of friends...... and part of the reason is that most folks on our side simply want to be left alone (see 44AMP's post) .....

When confronted with a problem not "solved" for them by parroting some of their indoctrination, they are lost......
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Old March 24, 2013, 01:01 PM   #32
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Quote:
In the past 30+ years I have worked with a lot of people who have degrees of one kind or another. What this has taught me is that a piece of paper from some college prooves only that you did not flunk out. It doesn't mean you are intelligent, or even knowledgeable. You may be, but that paper doesn't mean squat, other than that you passed the course.
I couldn't possibly agree more with you. Also, it may be pertinent to add that the vast majority of college degrees do not qualify your knowledge of firearms to be more valid than that of anyone else. Most people that work in the firearms field or are enthusiasts of firearms learn from experience or by trade. Someone's degree in agriculture or linguistics is unimportant beyond those fields in my opinion, but I am acutely aware of the modern social impression that graduating from college means you are of a higher class than people who have not graduated from college.
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Old March 24, 2013, 01:56 PM   #33
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Xero, . . . in many circles, . . . I fit the
Quote:
white, male, Southern, poor, and marginally educated
.

First, . . . I'm proud of it, . . . as Popeye used to say, "I am what I am, and that's all what I am", . . . a reference to our inherent inability to control our parentages or pedigrees.

BUT, . . . I can also drop a deer at 130 yds with a muzzle loader, . . . I can completely and legally install a full electrical system, . . . plumbing system, . . . HVAC, . . . I can pour my own footings, lay my own block, build my own house from scratch, . . . I can build 75 + page Excel budget workbooks, . . . disassemble an Access Data Base and re-assemble it, . . . all the while I'm pastoring a little country church, playing husband and father in my family.

I've totally swapped out engine & drive trains in vehicles, . . . rebuilt motorcycles, . . . baked my own bread, . . . pies, . . . cakes, . . . welded my own wood burning stove together, . . .

Ask those two bit starbuck heads how far they can walk past facebook, twitter, and their government checks.

Yeah, . . . I'm a cranky old red-necked hill-billy, . . . not very well educated, . . . but I'm also smart enough not to have shallow pits of sewage like them for friends.

May God bless,
Dwight
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Old March 24, 2013, 01:59 PM   #34
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You COULD also tell those folks generalizing about gun owners that they should realize if the SHTF the same people they are talking junk about would be the same ones that would likely be able to stay alive and fed while their criticizers ran around and died in a panic.
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Old March 24, 2013, 02:07 PM   #35
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Quote:
The problem as I see it, manta, is that so many Americans get the only infor mation they have from Piers and his ilk, and their own echo chamber of friends...... and part of the reason is that most folks on our side simply want to be left alone (see 44AMP's post)
Don't get me wrong i can't stand Morgan. But if there is anyone to blame its the American media that seem not to be exactly pro gun. I am happy to talk to anti gun people here some do listen some you are wasting your time.
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Old March 24, 2013, 02:15 PM   #36
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I've worked with quite a few degreed co-workers who could only charitably be considered 'marginally educated'. Visit their home and see not a single book or magazine in sight, with all information coming into the home being the Jon Stewart show or conversations with those who believe exactly the same belief system, none others.
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Old March 24, 2013, 02:24 PM   #37
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Useful idjits, one and all. It's not the Southern Whites they have to worry about but those who are gang-bangers or on psych meds.
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Old March 24, 2013, 02:41 PM   #38
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Well I'm white, I guess, a male obviously. Southern, I was born in South Jersey, does that count? Poor? I have no income but live off my savings, does that make one poor? Under educated well I was smart enough to have enough to be retired at 57. I did only achieve a high school education.
So I guess I'm an example of their stereotype.
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Old March 24, 2013, 04:41 PM   #39
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I've deleted a couple of posts. If we make sweeping, negative generalizations about people on the other side of this issue, we're guilty of exactly the same stereotyping described in the OP.
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Old March 24, 2013, 04:44 PM   #40
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I'm white, southern, male, and struggling to attain a BA in poli sci.

And yet, in my day job I run a camp that overseas upwards of a million dollars in revenue each year.

In my other day job, I supervise a squad of heavily armed 18-20 year olds and a Bradley Fighting Vehicle.

Nice to be stereotyped because of the Romney sticker and fraterity letters on my truck, I tell you what.
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Old March 24, 2013, 07:02 PM   #41
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Gun Grabbers At The Next Table --

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dwight55 View Post
Xero, . . . in many circles, . . . I fit the .

First, . . . I'm proud of it, . . . as Popeye used to say, "I am what I am, and that's all what I am", . . . a reference to our inherent inability to control our parentages or pedigrees.

BUT, . . . I can also drop a deer at 130 yds with a muzzle loader, . . . I can completely and legally install a full electrical system, . . . plumbing system, . . . HVAC, . . . I can pour my own footings, lay my own block, build my own house from scratch, . . . I can build 75 + page Excel budget workbooks, . . . disassemble an Access Data Base and re-assemble it, . . . all the while I'm pastoring a little country church, playing husband and father in my family.

I've totally swapped out engine & drive trains in vehicles, . . . rebuilt motorcycles, . . . baked my own bread, . . . pies, . . . cakes, . . . welded my own wood burning stove together, . . .

Ask those two bit starbuck heads how far they can walk past facebook, twitter, and their government checks.

Yeah, . . . I'm a cranky old red-necked hill-billy, . . . not very well educated, . . . but I'm also smart enough not to have shallow pits of sewage like them for friends.

May God bless,
Dwight
You sound like me Dwight...I can and will do just about anything the most people hire out. I have not hired anyone to do anything to my house, car, guns, 4 wheelers, lawn equipment, computers and anything else I haven't listed.

I may not have a college degree, but I can fix jut about anything...I fix things the people would throw away.
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Old March 25, 2013, 10:55 AM   #42
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Item 1: stereotypes
Quote:
You should have spoken up to destroy their stereotypes.
No, it might be worth putting a human face on the opposite camp by buying them some coffee cake and asking if they want to them to explain the issue to you. Be interested in what they, as individual citizens, might bring to the table b/c their arguments might be completely different from the run of the mill arguments. Maybe not, but people like getting their say.
If you're a gun-toting citizen who seems thoughtful, calm and rational and you have well-supported arguments that support your position, that would make you a good representative of our position. If all the fence sitters know is Ted Nugent and the people who scream on TV it's hard to sympathize with fellow citizens who carry. We need to change the order of things. Right now, we are depicted as reactionary, paranoid ignorant rednecks who take their guns to bed with them like steel teddy bears. If we become everyday fellow citizens who volunteer at the local soup kitchand and, oh, happen to have guns as well, it might change the perceptions a bit.

You might feel passionately about this (duh, you joined TFL), but if you come off as angry, then you become "that angry guy with a gun whom I met at the coffee shop," and it becomes harder for people to distinguish between angry behavior and gun ownership. It might seem weird, but the stereotype that we need to fight is the news-driven connection between violent behavior and attitudes and the reality of private citizens making rational choices. People who don't own guns, in my opinion, are less against guns b/c they have data that supports their view, but more against "gun violence." No one wants violence in their everyday life, and when people think that gun ownership automatically brings violence, it's not hard to oppose gun ownership.

Item 2:
Should the gov't have equipment that the normal citizen shouldn't?
In my opinion, people's perception of gov't falls into one of two camps (stereotype alert!):
a. The government is the collection of people who provide services to me.
b. The government is the collection of people who happen to be in charge (and I want them to leave me alone so long as I'm acting responsibly).

People who are in A-ville would probably be okay with the police and military have more firepower than the average bag guy (they provide a service).
People who fall onto the b side of the fence are more likely to to remember how governments have turned on segments of their populations and used their superior firepower to horrendous effect.

Both people have trust in their fellow citizens but differently. A thinks that the gov't is trustworthy, B think that their fellow citizens outside of gov't are as trustworthy as--and moreso in some cases than--the citzens in gov't.

Don't forget that these are your fellow citizens and that much as they disagree with you and might not appreciate history nor their 2nd Amend rights, they do deserve the same respect that you do.
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Old March 25, 2013, 10:59 AM   #43
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You know, with a post that intelligent and well though-out, I find it funny that your username is "doofus"!
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Old March 25, 2013, 11:34 AM   #44
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Scott, you beat me to it! Great post, doofus.
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Old March 25, 2013, 11:38 AM   #45
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Quote:
Be interested in what they, as individual citizens, might bring to the table b/c their arguments might be completely different from the run of the mill arguments.
A very good post, doofus.

(That just doesn't sound like the compliment it was intended to be!)

Many people are set in their opinions and ideas, and they don't want to entertain new arguments. Their preconceptions might be threatened. This goes for closely-held beliefs on both sides of the aisle.

I've known gun owners who have a few cute little slogans ("because a cop's too heavy to carry, hnur...") and a few memorized talking points, but their arguments have some serious holes. When I try to play devil's advocate, they question my commitment to the cause and they wander off. They don't want their ideas threatened. Then they go get eaten alive by an informed anti.

And yes, there are informed, intelligent folks who simply don't like guns. If they're willing to keep an open mind, it's worth trying to convince them. I usually start by asking if they'd like to hear a different perspective. That tends to work better than "mah cold dead hands, hippies!"

Just bear in mind there are some folks who won't listen, and some who won't be convinced. We have to pick battles we have a chance of winning.
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Old March 25, 2013, 11:52 AM   #46
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I'm college educated, from Maine and I live in Colorado now. Categorizing me as "poor" might be fair, but then again, shooting is an expensive hobby. Why would you say gun supporters are "poor" when:

1.) The NRA and other organizations are getting record donations

AND

2.) Good working guns generally run at least $400 and up.

It's a pretty ignorant opinion to be sure.
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Old March 25, 2013, 12:08 PM   #47
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I wish anything I was interested in purchasing was $400
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Old March 25, 2013, 12:39 PM   #48
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Bugger it! I am a white male(automatically makes me evil), live in Ohio, but from New Zealand originally and graduated from OU.

Yup, we white males are a serious problem. We need to be put in camps for the good of the country, and the world.

By the way, I can promise you my accent is nothing like that of my friends in TX or GA etc.
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Old March 25, 2013, 02:24 PM   #49
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Gun grabbers, Bo Bos! There goes the neighbor hood.
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Old March 25, 2013, 03:22 PM   #50
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If you're going to stick your nose in, the best recruiter I've found is an invitation to the gun range. Get someone shooter and they are a shooter for life.

Otherwise I would mind my own business as I don't like having arguments while trying to drink my coffee.
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