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Old March 25, 2013, 11:12 PM   #26
Tucker 1371
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Good luck, the only semi auto .308s I've seen in that price range lately have been VEPRs and Saigas. Saw a PTR recently but I can't remember the price, over $1K though.

I'd suggest saving and waiting out the panic for an M1A, maybe go ahead and buy some mags for it if you can find them.
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Old March 26, 2013, 08:29 AM   #27
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Wait for the panic to settle down and then look for a used AR-10B, the original model AR-10 from ArmaLite. The one that uses the modded M1A mags or GenII ArmaLite mags.

With a quality barrel these well out shoot any of the other rifles in this thread. Look at what is dominating service rifle now, the AR-10. My NM Garand shoots great, as does my NM M1A, but the Noveske barreled AR-10 out shoots them all.
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Old March 26, 2013, 11:57 AM   #28
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Probably the SCAR 17. Light, portable, compact and does the exact same thing a 12 lb. heavy FAL can do.
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Old March 26, 2013, 10:37 PM   #29
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thanks everyone for your reply's. ive decided to go with a M1A.
My reasoning:
1: Ive got a little trigger time on a M1A and ive loved every second of it
2: accuracy seems to be about the best out of the options that i have been given (not including the AR-10, see next reason)
3: ive got 2 AR's already, not really interested in an AR-10 right now. though i may get a wild hair and build one some day
4: not in a very good spot to be buying anything $$ wise right now (school loans to pay off) but i do have a budget i can build up enough money to get exactly what i want in a year or two.
5: as a realoder/hunter i could tailor any load to my fancy without having to worry about buying brass every other week.
again thank you all for your input. once i get my rifle and tailor it to my liking ill be sure to share it with all of you.
Happy early Easter!
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Old March 27, 2013, 10:24 AM   #30
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mausermolt
3: ive got 2 AR's already, not really interested in an AR-10 right now. though i may get a wild hair and build one some day
They may look like a AR-15 but the 7.62 AR's are a different beast. Increase in size, weight and recoil makes a considerable difference. You know you are shooting a center fire cartridge.
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Old March 27, 2013, 10:41 AM   #31
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I've had no experience with the PTR/H&K-91, other than to want one because Burt Gummer carried it. But being a lefty, and not willing to shell out 4,000 bucks on a rifle kinda rules that rifle out.

I got to fire a FAL, I think it was the L1A1 variant, for familirization, and thought it was the coolest thing ever.

I would choose it over the M1A, simply because I found it more ergo-nomic, atleast for me.

Not to disparage the M1A/M-14 family at all, a great weapon system. And an accurate one.

That being said, the FN-FAl is sometimes referred to as "The right arm of the free world."
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Old March 27, 2013, 10:59 AM   #32
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Quote:
That being said, the FN-FAl is sometimes referred to as "The right arm of the free world."
True in 1975, but now they're mainly used by third world armies in Africa.
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Old March 27, 2013, 11:02 AM   #33
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Not denying that, but when the 7.62x51 was the standard issue round for everybody, the FN-FAL reigned supreme.

And what other battle rifle is mentioned in Australian pop music?
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Old March 27, 2013, 11:13 AM   #34
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Definitely a well built rifle. I'm always amazed when I see them in a news shot as they look like they've been in constant service for the past 50 years.
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Old March 27, 2013, 02:07 PM   #35
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Okay, this is from some research that I've done on the topic. I'm by no means an expert and this glosses over just some of the highlights.

FN FAL: Reliable with possibly the longest track record for both reliability and service history among all three of the ones you're looking at. That said, they're ridiculously rugged and reliable. They also come in all sorts of variations, from Side folder Paratrooper carbines to full 21" rifles.

They're exotic and rarely seen, you are more likely to see a HK/PTR-91 at the range than an FAL nowadays, that said though, parts are not necessarily scarce. DSA makes replacement parts, even complete rifles using modern metal technology (You can probably find one used if you hunt hard enough). If you go through DSA you can easily find a railed dust cover to mount optics later. (Mind you, kit guns have no easy provisions for optics from what I can tell without shopping for railed forends or going custom)

Accuracy, you mentioned is a big stickler with you. Understand that the FN FAL was designed for WAR and reliabilty first, it just so happens to be pretty accurate, for a battle rifle. It's not a tack driver, the best you'll get out of it is maybe, just maybe 2-3 MOA, that is with quality ammo (usually custom loaded) and a good unmolested israeli barrel (which may be bought on the surplus market), realistically, 3-6 MOA at 100m. If you choose to go the custom route, I know a number of smiths and so on that can help you find what you need to get your hands on a parts kit, all the way up to what type of receiver you'd need.

They're tough as nails but can be on the heavy side, you can choose from a variety of fixed stocks (depending on the variant) to suite your LOP if you so desired.

Magazines are relatively cheap if you search the surplus market (Which I recommend since they tend to be more reliable than the new ones from DSA)

Trigger pull is okay, but not great but the ergonomics are pretty sound, if you have small hands like me though, it can be a bit of a stretch to try and manhandle the safety.

HK/PTR-91: I've only fired the PTR91 before and from my experience, they're good rifles. They'll shoot just about anything from my experience (can't claim that for the HK91 as I've not shot one) and are somewhat of a rare sight on the range and are IMO the AK of .308 rifles in terms of reliability. Like the FAL they were designed for war first, accuracy second . That said, there are variants that have been accurized to fulfill the DMR/Sharpshooting role (The PSG1 comes to mind as does the G3SG/1) and if I recall PTR does indeed offer clones of those rifles. As for the accuracy of the latter more specialized rifles I cannot comment since I have no experience with them. The PTR91 however, I do have some experience with it. It's not a tack driver, again, it's a battle rifle, as such, you can expect similar results as with the FAL, 2-4 MOA with quality ammunition, 4-6 MOA realistically.

One of the biggest cons that I saw with the rifle is that if you like to reload, it's ridiculously hard on brass, the flutes in the chamber and the violent ejection of the spent casings usually end up badly dinging brass, limiting or in some cases rendering them completely un-reloadable. This can be remedied to some extent by purchasing deflectors or reducing the amount of gas the rifle gets, but it does not completely eliminate the problem.

Magazines are cheap, you can find a good number of them on the surplus market, some in bulk packs from Germany. The PTR91 that I fired had a custom trigger in it if memory serves, so I cannot comment on how it feels stock.

There is relatively large and active surplus market that you can purchase from RTG parts and HK-parts.com are the primary sources for all your HK clone parts needs (That includes the grandfather rifle of the G3 the CETME too)

Mounting an optic to one of these rifles is difficult and will require you to either purchase a rifle that has the welded rail (PTR offers this) to the receiver, or purchasing a claw mount (Which has weaver mounts if memory serves) that sits really high on the rifle and may be difficult to use or awkward for some.

M1A: I sadly do not have any experience with this rifle so I will limit my comments on it. From my understanding, among the three it is easily the most accurate...and one of the most expensive, they come in a decent variety of lengths, but are not friendly to mounting optics in their stock form. It is also the most friendly for those that reloads and are really reliable rifles to shoot.


End comments: Really, I'd say if you want accuracy (1 Minute of Arc or better), you're not going to find it in the HK/PTR91 or the FN FAL, only the M1A can offer that from what I've experienced and read, however, if you want Minute of MAN all three can easily fulfill that job. If you get the opportunity to shoot any of them, do so. I personally liked the feel of the FAL more the PTR91, but if given the option, I'd honestly would have all three, seeing as I love battle rifles period and am a collector at heart.

Good luck, I hope this helped.

Also, anyone who is more knowledgable than me (and there are many) please correct me if I am wrong on ANY of this.
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Old March 27, 2013, 02:27 PM   #36
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You're feeding into the gun grabber frenzy --

"Battle Rifle" is typically selective fire / full auto. And if you're going to go that route, get the belt fed M-60.

FAL would be my pick of the market options -- Retail version is a semi-auto, mag fed. It's not the selective fire "assault rifle" used by the military.

The point I'm belaboring here is that the commercial / retail FAL is NOT an "assault weapon," not a "battle rifle," and not a "weapon of war" -- regardless what Obie, Joe, and Dianne would have you believe.

Let's not feed this Hydra from the in-house sources, eh?
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Old March 27, 2013, 02:44 PM   #37
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Fair enough Xero.

At any rate, for ergonomics and due to the history of the rifle, I'd say the FAL is the winner for me as well (As is evident by the fact that I'm building one right now) All of them are fine rifles however, and will get the job done. Plus wood simply looks fantastic on the FAL.

Mine will pretty much look identical to this one when I'm done putting her together

German G1 variant FAL, isn't she purdy all dressed up in the French walnut?

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Old March 27, 2013, 02:50 PM   #38
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PARDON ME Xero! 308 Modern sporting rifle. im just not really into playing semantics

Kimio: thanks for your constructive post. i see you have made the point that you are a collector and would like all three. i also will eventually try to get all of them but for now ill stick with just one (.308) mouth to feed
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Old March 27, 2013, 05:01 PM   #39
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I decided long ago that the M14 type rifle was the best all around battle rifle.
Years of hands on experience with this type of rifle fully supports my decision.

As much as I like the look and feel of wood and steel, I prefer the SAGE
EBR, Blackfeather RS and custom LAW483 wood stocks with pistol grips.

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Old March 27, 2013, 05:24 PM   #40
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My vote goes to the M1A. My next rifle purchase, which isn't anytime soon due to a recent gun purchase, will be an M1A Scout Squad. Shot an M1A loaded not long ago and fell in love with it. Already got a few 20rd mags for it put aside.
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Old March 27, 2013, 06:27 PM   #41
SPEMack618
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sailskidrive
Definitely a well built rifle. I'm always amazed when I see them in a news shot as they look like they've been in constant service for the past 50 years.
Granting those in service in Africa probably hadn't had an arsenal level rebuild, but a lot of "true" military weapons have long, long careers.
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Old March 27, 2013, 07:16 PM   #42
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The L1A1 SLR was my first personal weapon in the British Army and many of us old and bold still have a special place in our hearts for it. It is an accurate, reliable and rugged rifle. I would imagine the adjustable gas regulator would endear it to people who reload their own ammunition.

I've used the FN FAL original and I liked the simplicity of the flip over rearsight.

We got rid of the SLR because it was getting difficult to maintain, because they were old and worn out. We replaced it with the SA80 that took 15 years to sort out; it that took Heckler & Koch to modify it to make the thing reliable.

I like the G3, but I always found the back of the receiver hit me under the eye when I fired it! One thing I also observed about the G3 is that its ejector puts a dent into the ejected cases, which may upset you shooters who reload. For me as a soldier it wasn't an issue, but it always irritated me that it threw ejected cases everywhere!

The nice things about the G3 are:
  • It's made by HK
  • The cocking handle is chunky
  • Sights are superb
  • Its strongly built - it'll last

I dislike the M-14 and I haven't fired a lot of it; it always struck me that they'd placed a military rifle inside a hunting rifle stock. I often wondered why, after replacing the M1 Garand, they didn't take the opportunity to redesign the stock...
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Old March 27, 2013, 07:23 PM   #43
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I had forgotten to mention that with the PTR-91, another detriment to re-loaders is that it not only tends to fling the brass out violently, it also launches it into the next county.
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Old March 27, 2013, 07:53 PM   #44
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M1A hands down. The FALs are ok but beat up the brass, so if you reload get the M1A and be done with it. More accuracy than you'd ever need.
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Old March 28, 2013, 05:33 AM   #45
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if you can afford an M1A, being a huge fan of the garand, thats the route id go to... but i think if i got one i probably wouldnt go with a tacticool stock... either the straight wood, or a lighter polymer version
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Old March 28, 2013, 07:01 AM   #46
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Back in the early 90's I bought a Springfield M1A Scout and it was sub MOA at 100yrds. I sold it and bought a Amalite AR10A4 and it was also very accurate. I still have the Armalite but always reggreted selling the Springfield. Then the other day I was in a LGS and they had on consignment a MINT Polytech M14S. I scopped it up for a very fair price and then acquired a USGI bolt to put in it as the Chicom bolts were not made as hard as the USGI bolts, so I'm as happy as a puppy with two peters.
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Old March 28, 2013, 09:48 AM   #47
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My favorite is the M1a:




But, bang for the buck, PTR91.

The G3 rifle design was innovative and created a simple, reliable rifle that could be mass produced cheaply. It did not make sense to the German designers, who lived through WW2 where entire German Armies were lost on the Eastern Front, to make expensive rifles that took a lot of effort to make. Take a look at some of the last ditch rifles being produced, crude, but still better than broomsticks. Given the losses in a major war, it made a lot more sense to cut production costs, and thus, the G3 type of rifles are still being made and issued while the expensive FAL and M14 are out of inventory.




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Old March 28, 2013, 11:45 AM   #48
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The PTR91 also looks quite handsome in wood

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Old March 28, 2013, 12:27 PM   #49
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no HK rifle is more gorgeous than those with the wooden furniture
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Old March 30, 2013, 01:25 AM   #50
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-Xero- said:
Quote:
"Battle Rifle" is typically selective fire / full auto.
So when did the M1 Grand and the 06 Springfield become "select-fire?"

Quote:
The point I'm belaboring here is that the commercial / retail FAL is NOT an "assault weapon," not a "battle rifle," and not a "weapon of war"
I'm assuming that you mean due to it's function as a semi-auto?

If so then you better not tell the Brits seeing that their L1A1s' that they carried into battle (ie. Falkands War) were semi-autos and didn't have the "select-fire" capability.

Last edited by stmichps; March 30, 2013 at 01:36 AM.
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