The Firing Line Forums

Go Back   The Firing Line Forums > The Hide > The Art of the Rifle: Semi-automatics

Closed Thread
 
Thread Tools
Old March 26, 2013, 01:40 PM   #51
SR420
Senior Member
 
Join Date: May 12, 2005
Location: Georgia, USA
Posts: 2,765
I would not want to choose between the two examples of the AK and AR I have.


I like my 7.62 X 39 AKM and have not experienced the 'issues' some have with the design.





I also like my AR, perhaps due to it being a piston driven Daewoo AR-100 / K2.

__________________
facebook.com/M14EBR.US
SR420 is offline  
Old March 26, 2013, 01:42 PM   #52
CraCZ
Member
 
Join Date: August 11, 2006
Location: tucson
Posts: 56
Well the Military Channel listed the top 10 military guns of the world. The AK-47 was number 1 and the M4 was number 2. But what do they know. Ive had both ar-15 and AK's. Got rid of the AR because it was just to high maintenance for me for what I need. Just like women, I prefer the low maintenance ones. Now after finding out about the AK 74 all my AK 47's are gone except my PolyTech Bakelite Sidefolder which I will never sell. The AK 74 was developed in Russia as an answer to the 556 nato used in Vietnam. Now I have three of those little puppies and are a joy to shoot with low recoil off a very flat, hot little round.
CraCZ is offline  
Old March 26, 2013, 01:56 PM   #53
jason41987
Senior Member
 
Join Date: April 19, 2012
Posts: 479
I wouldnt really call the 5.45 round all that hot.. Has the kinetic energy of a 30 carbine, about 400ft/lbs than the 5.56
jason41987 is offline  
Old March 26, 2013, 02:29 PM   #54
tahunua001
Senior Member
 
Join Date: July 21, 2011
Location: Idaho
Posts: 5,267
the military channel gives arbitrary scoring based on how long they were in service, how reliable they were, how accurate, how powerful and a couple others that I can't remember since it's been years since I've watched the military channel but the deciding factor between the AK47 and the M4 would have been service life which if the M4 had been around for 40 more years would have most certainly beaten out the AK.
just my .02 on that subject.
__________________
ignore my complete lack of capitalization. I still have no problem correcting your grammar.
I never said half the crap people said I did-Albert Einstein
You can't believe everything you read on the internet-Benjamin Franklin
Bean counters told me I couldn't fire a man for being in a wheelchair, did it anyway. Ramps are expensive.-Cave Johnson.
tahunua001 is offline  
Old March 26, 2013, 02:38 PM   #55
Strafer Gott
Senior Member
 
Join Date: May 12, 2011
Location: New Mexico
Posts: 1,089
A SIG 556 is very much easier to clean, and I still use GI mags and 5.56.
What a wonderful world. The sidefolder stock is just gravy. That crack about M1 carbine ballistic superiority has me rotflmao. Pistol powered carbines are a dead issue. If you want a chopper, an AK47 will work. If marksmanship is important, make it an AK74, or an AR is far far better. The Sig for me!
Strafer Gott is offline  
Old March 26, 2013, 04:26 PM   #56
jason41987
Senior Member
 
Join Date: April 19, 2012
Posts: 479
or instead get the 551-A1 which uses sig mags which are of an AK type, which are more reliable for a couple reasons, first by having a fully curved profile to match the taper of the cartridges, and second by using leverage to lock the mag in place... third advantage to the 551 using the original style magazines is you wouldnt need a long skinny neck on c-mags and drums, theyd fit much closer to the receiver
jason41987 is offline  
Old March 26, 2013, 08:29 PM   #57
Tucker 1371
Senior Member
 
Join Date: December 29, 2008
Location: East TN
Posts: 1,889
Or we could quit talking about little girly guns and all get M14s

...JUST KIDDING


Mods I completely understand if you feel the need to delete my completely pointless post.
__________________
NCO of Marines, 3rd Award Expert Rifle, 236 KD Range
D Co, 4th CEB, Engineers UP!! OEF 21JUN-20SEP2011
REV. 19:11 And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and he that sat upon him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he doth judge and make war.
Tucker 1371 is offline  
Old March 26, 2013, 08:35 PM   #58
SR420
Senior Member
 
Join Date: May 12, 2005
Location: Georgia, USA
Posts: 2,765
Quote:
Tucker 1371 Or we could quit talking about little girly guns and all get M14s
__________________
facebook.com/M14EBR.US
SR420 is offline  
Old March 27, 2013, 09:21 AM   #59
SPEMack618
Senior Member
 
Join Date: June 21, 2010
Location: Central Georgia
Posts: 1,376
One night I went down to the American Legion post with my Dad.

I got cornered by this elderly gentleman, wearing a Korean Veteran ball cap, with a slew of campaign ribbons pinned to it, and he proceeded to inform me that the reasons we weren't doing so hot was that we(being the military) had ditched the M-14 and M-1 Garand.

it was worth a chuckle and makes for a good story.
__________________
NRA Life Member
"Had King Kong showed up in Texas, Frank Hamer would have taken him down with his Model 8 in .35 Remington...well, he was kind of big, so maybe his BAR"
SPEMack618 is offline  
Old March 27, 2013, 11:43 AM   #60
tahunua001
Senior Member
 
Join Date: July 21, 2011
Location: Idaho
Posts: 5,267
Quote:
I got cornered by this elderly gentleman, wearing a Korean Veteran ball cap, with a slew of campaign ribbons pinned to it, and he proceeded to inform me that the reasons we weren't doing so hot was that we(being the military) had ditched the M-14 and M-1 Garand.
this was the sentiment among a lot of vietnam vets that did not like the prospect of trading wood for plastic, steel for aluminum and 30 cal which had been the US standard since the turn of the century for a 22 caliber round, they just felt like they were being forced to hand in their weapons and exchange them for toys. it didn't help that the military made a number of changes to the stoner design which caused serious problems early in the war. most of the guys that still maintain that the M16/M4 are a poor choice haven't seen seen what a modern stoner rifle can be.
__________________
ignore my complete lack of capitalization. I still have no problem correcting your grammar.
I never said half the crap people said I did-Albert Einstein
You can't believe everything you read on the internet-Benjamin Franklin
Bean counters told me I couldn't fire a man for being in a wheelchair, did it anyway. Ramps are expensive.-Cave Johnson.
tahunua001 is offline  
Old March 27, 2013, 05:32 PM   #61
triggerhappy2006
Senior Member
 
Join Date: February 19, 2006
Location: peoples republic of new york
Posts: 451
meh, I'd take a M16/M4, AK's are awesome and tanks as far as reliability but any modern DI AR will hold it's own. As for accuracy, I've never gotten to sit down on a range with a AK but AR's are good to 500 meters + and I know there are "snipers" who have used AK's with success out to 400-500 meters, then again, they are the 1%.
__________________
"We make the voices go away"
triggerhappy2006 is offline  
Old March 27, 2013, 06:27 PM   #62
kraigwy
Senior Member
 
Join Date: June 16, 2008
Location: Wyoming
Posts: 9,208
As to old timers condemning the switch from M1/M14s, their fathers condemned the switch to the M1....... "We don't want them dern machine rifles, we need to stick with the '03's."
__________________
Kraig Stuart
CPT USAR Ret
USAMU Sniper School Oct '78
Distinguished Rifle Badge 1071
kraigwy is offline  
Old March 27, 2013, 06:30 PM   #63
SPEMack618
Senior Member
 
Join Date: June 21, 2010
Location: Central Georgia
Posts: 1,376
Quote:
it didn't help that the military made a number of changes to the stoner design which caused serious problems early in the war. most of the guys that still maintain that the M16/M4 are a poor choice haven't seen seen what a modern stoner rifle can be.
That's a very valid point. It is also worth noting that the gentleman in question showed his depth of knowledge in conversation by referencing the Marine Corps Small Wars Manual, which was one of the first books about waging an effective counter-insurgency, and yet was still wedded to his belief in the superiority of the Garand.

That would make an interesting study of how combat veterans perceive thier weapons as superior, even as time and technology advance.

I reckon in 2060, I'll be sitting on a bar stool somewhere telling all comers about the superiority of the M-4A1 over these new fangled plastic plasma carbines.
__________________
NRA Life Member
"Had King Kong showed up in Texas, Frank Hamer would have taken him down with his Model 8 in .35 Remington...well, he was kind of big, so maybe his BAR"
SPEMack618 is offline  
Old March 27, 2013, 06:59 PM   #64
tahunua001
Senior Member
 
Join Date: July 21, 2011
Location: Idaho
Posts: 5,267
hopefully by then the phased plasma rifle in 40 watt range will have all the issues ironed out...
__________________
ignore my complete lack of capitalization. I still have no problem correcting your grammar.
I never said half the crap people said I did-Albert Einstein
You can't believe everything you read on the internet-Benjamin Franklin
Bean counters told me I couldn't fire a man for being in a wheelchair, did it anyway. Ramps are expensive.-Cave Johnson.
tahunua001 is offline  
Old March 27, 2013, 07:00 PM   #65
HKFan9
Senior Member
 
Join Date: May 3, 2008
Posts: 2,525
I favor the AR heavily but I have owned and appreciated both.

I favor the AR because it is simply a better gun to me. Better sights, better manual of arms, but I don't go around knocking AK's.

However what I find odd is why so many people say they like both but will favor the AK for a SHTF situation. To me that is generally one of the biggest downfalls right now of the AK platform.

Lets be honest, things fail, even when Glock inscribes PERFECTION of the side of it, they wear, and fail. If you think your AK or any of your guns is magical and will near wear out or fail on you in some way your either not logical, or not shooting it enough.

The problem I see with an AK in a true SHTF situation is if you have to get up and leave, the ammo you are going to be packing is 1) much heavier, 2) generally in short supply even before the craze. Most of the Comm Bloc surplus has been drying up, and AK's are getting harder and harder to find ammo for. (talking the 7.62x39 that is). Also parts are not as common here as the AR platform by a whole ten fold.

If I had to get up and leave, I would want as many rounds as I could take that wouldn't over burden me, but also I want the gun I am most likely to be able to find spare ammo and parts for, generally anywhere in the US this will be the AR platform.

I do LIKE AKs. but for anything serious I favor my AR's. All of them I own at the moment are either BCM or running BCM uppers. If you still think the AR platform is too unreliable I would challenge you to run a BCM with out cleaning it such as SWAT magazine did for their Filthy 14 article where a BCM rack rifle ran more than 14,000 rounds without cleaning. My AR takes the same time to clean as my AK and Saiga 12 do simply because I bring them to work with me and take them apart and toss them in the gun smiths parts washer for a few hours.

The main reason I really prefer the AR is the recoil impulse and the manual of arms for anything serious, even people VERY good with an AK... the AR generally is faster. My BCM with 14.5'' barrel with a mid gas system, compensated, and H2 buffer has a VERY low recoil impulse, so you just hold the dot on the target and squeeze the trigger however many rounds you feel appropriate. The manual of arms is much easier to use, and does not require you to move your trigger hand from the fire control group to rack the action like an AK does. However one slight modification I do find VERY helpful for the $10 I spent on it is the Magpul BAD lever. The T handle is not perfect on the AR with the bolt release being on the left side, however with the BAD lever I never have to worry about it. I can lock the bolt to the rear with never having to remove my hand from the fire control group, I can also do a faster mag change while not having to worry about hitting the "ping pong paddle" on the left side.

I give the AK its credit, but for competition,work, and home defense, I would take an AR before an AK.

Last edited by HKFan9; March 27, 2013 at 07:20 PM.
HKFan9 is offline  
Old March 27, 2013, 07:14 PM   #66
tahunua001
Senior Member
 
Join Date: July 21, 2011
Location: Idaho
Posts: 5,267
HK, finally we have found something to agree on.
__________________
ignore my complete lack of capitalization. I still have no problem correcting your grammar.
I never said half the crap people said I did-Albert Einstein
You can't believe everything you read on the internet-Benjamin Franklin
Bean counters told me I couldn't fire a man for being in a wheelchair, did it anyway. Ramps are expensive.-Cave Johnson.
tahunua001 is offline  
Old March 27, 2013, 07:27 PM   #67
HKFan9
Senior Member
 
Join Date: May 3, 2008
Posts: 2,525
haha, I edited my post right after you made your post so I still hope we agree on something!
HKFan9 is offline  
Old March 27, 2013, 07:43 PM   #68
tahunua001
Senior Member
 
Join Date: July 21, 2011
Location: Idaho
Posts: 5,267
I'm not a brand snob... I own home builds on DPMS lowers but I still agree with you.
someday I hope to have a nice top tier AR like a Seekins Precision(since they are local) but for now, mine do everything I need them for...
__________________
ignore my complete lack of capitalization. I still have no problem correcting your grammar.
I never said half the crap people said I did-Albert Einstein
You can't believe everything you read on the internet-Benjamin Franklin
Bean counters told me I couldn't fire a man for being in a wheelchair, did it anyway. Ramps are expensive.-Cave Johnson.
tahunua001 is offline  
Old March 27, 2013, 08:23 PM   #69
Justice06RR
Senior Member
 
Join Date: December 21, 2010
Location: Central FL
Posts: 1,187
Quote:
I will offer a challenge to any AK user. Bring your Ak and 500 rounds, I'll bet I'll get more rounds on a man size target at 100 yards faster and without malfunctions with my Un modified AR.

This an open challenge to any AK user.
This is agreat challenge Kraig.

I would just be careful if a hardcore AK guy challenges you to bring your AR to a challenge involving lots mud, sand, and no lube/maintenance for 1k+ rounds... with steel cased ammo.

I have been a big AR15 guy for a while and love that weapon system. Great ergo's, versatility, and accuracy. But even I can even understand the limitations of each system. I've recently just gotten into the world of AK's and also respect that platform.

The way I see it, they are Different tools that both offer great advantages (and some minor disadvantages).


edit:
HK, you make some great points too. But IMO there's nothing wrong with choosing an AK for SHTF scenario as much as an AR. I really have not had trouble stocking up on 7.62 ammo at all; its even available locally now in my LGS while I still cannot find 223 ammo anywhere in stock except online.

Weight is a personal issue. Of course 7.62 is heavier per round, but I would admit its also heavier hitting than a 5.56. Each caliber has its pro's and con's so choose your battles wisely, so to speak. If you prefer a lighter load-out then the 5.56/223 would be the better choice. But I really don't have an issue carrying the same amount of 7.62 if it came to that. A smaller/weaker person might be better off with 5.56.

I was really biased before against AK's and only loved AR's. But after doing some research on AK's and shooting them, I can see their appeal.

Last edited by Justice06RR; March 27, 2013 at 08:35 PM.
Justice06RR is offline  
Old March 27, 2013, 08:36 PM   #70
tahunua001
Senior Member
 
Join Date: July 21, 2011
Location: Idaho
Posts: 5,267
I would just like to point out that man sized target at 100 yards is not a particularly difficult challenge regardless of model and caliber.

the only people I've ever seen that seriously think that is a serious test of marksmanship/accuracy are those Citadel nutbags...
__________________
ignore my complete lack of capitalization. I still have no problem correcting your grammar.
I never said half the crap people said I did-Albert Einstein
You can't believe everything you read on the internet-Benjamin Franklin
Bean counters told me I couldn't fire a man for being in a wheelchair, did it anyway. Ramps are expensive.-Cave Johnson.
tahunua001 is offline  
Old March 27, 2013, 08:42 PM   #71
HKFan9
Senior Member
 
Join Date: May 3, 2008
Posts: 2,525
Quote:
I'm not a brand snob... I own home builds on DPMS lowers but I still agree with you.
someday I hope to have a nice top tier AR like a Seekins Precision(since they are local) but for now, mine do everything I need them for...
Home build are some of the best AR's I'v had too.

I am no means a brand snob, one of my favorite AR's to beat on was a bone stock Stag that was fed a healthy diet of steel cased ammo and never missed a beat.

I generally use BCM on most my rifles because of a few things. I like the quality, I like the price, $400 for a complete upper is very reasonable for a full mil-spec upper. Above all however, they have AMAZING customer service.

I am a paperwork jockey for a gun-smith shop and I deal constantly with different MFG's for warranty work and what have you, plus industry deals and pro-staff shoots. I get to see the good the bad and the ugly, mostly its the bad and the ugly because if its warranty work, someone got a brand new gun with issues, it happens to all makes, EVEN GLOCKS.

However any personal dealings I have done with BCM have been great. Anything I order that doesn't need to go to my FFL is literally on my door-step two or three days after I ordered it. Generally when ordering an upper its packed well, well lubricated, and I get a free hat, stickers, posters, and I have a few DVD's by Travis Haley and Pat Rodgers on AR training. Pretty cool for just ordering your standard upper.

I am a big fan of Travis Haley, and when I first saw news of the BCM HSP JACK Carbine rifle, I decided I just had to have one to same something a little different. I messaged Haley Strategic via email and received a quick response when the order form would go live for the Rifle. It went live the very same day the tragedy at Newtown happened. I got back from the post office after sending out the order form and heard the news. Originally the rifle was suppose to ship by Feb 1st. With in a week I got an email from BCM explaining they have my order, my rifle is being built, however since people were ordering parts in hoards it will take an estimated 4 more months to build it. I said that was fine since I already owned a few AR's. Long story short I emailed back and forth with one of the CS Reps at BCM quite a few times, and they would contact me first, with any updates to my order. Low and behold my phone went off one morning about 2 months earlier than I expected with the tracking number for my rifle. It was at my FFL the very next day. I have been more than pleased with BCM over numerous transactions and I love their product even more, so I don't try to be a snob about it. I have recomended and sold tons of Stags and various other builds. However I love the service and product I received from BCM.
HKFan9 is offline  
Old March 27, 2013, 08:55 PM   #72
tahunua001
Senior Member
 
Join Date: July 21, 2011
Location: Idaho
Posts: 5,267
I was just giving you a hard time HK.
__________________
ignore my complete lack of capitalization. I still have no problem correcting your grammar.
I never said half the crap people said I did-Albert Einstein
You can't believe everything you read on the internet-Benjamin Franklin
Bean counters told me I couldn't fire a man for being in a wheelchair, did it anyway. Ramps are expensive.-Cave Johnson.
tahunua001 is offline  
Old March 27, 2013, 08:56 PM   #73
HKFan9
Senior Member
 
Join Date: May 3, 2008
Posts: 2,525
Quote:
HK, you make some great points too. But IMO there's nothing wrong with choosing an AK for SHTF scenario as much as an AR. I really have not had trouble stocking up on 7.62 ammo at all; its even available locally now in my LGS while I still cannot find 223 ammo anywhere in stock except online.

Weight is a personal issue. Of course 7.62 is heavier per round, but I would admit its also heavier hitting than a 5.56. Each caliber has its pro's and con's so choose your battles wisely, so to speak. If you prefer a lighter load-out then the 5.56/223 would be the better choice. But I really don't have an issue carrying the same amount of 7.62 if it came to that. A smaller/weaker person might be better off with 5.56.
Well I don't consider it a feat of strength I think its more about a true survival situation. A natural disaster or whatever made you have to LEAVE, if its that bad, your car will run out of gas eventually, than your on foot. I want my rifle for protection as well as maybe even hunting. However I do want a decent amount of ammo, but I don't want it to be the ONLY thing I have either. A person say has a set limit of weight they can carry. It is different for every person sure, but the distribution of that weight is what is important. I don't want 95% of it being ammo. The more weight I can save per round, might mean extra weight being taken up for food/water/shelter/medical what have you. Lets face it, I can carry more twinkies having 300 rounds of .223 ammo than 300 rounds of 7.62 ammo.

7.62 ammo isn't all that HARD to find pre-panic, but your simply lying to yourself thinking it is as EASY to find as a .223 or 5.56, specially given the SHTF scenario people are referring to. You will have national guard units showing up, there will be in influx of .223 and m16's even more so than what you could already find.

Also your AK only packs more punch out to a few hundred yards, than the 5.56's better BC takes over and will carry energy better/further than the 7.62x39.

I love my AK and my Saiga 12, don't get me wrong, I just don't seem them as being my go to solution, but I am fine to disagree as I see no reason NOT to choose an AK either, I just have my reasons for preferring the AR, and unlike most on the interwebs I am not stubborn enough to think that only my answer is correct.
HKFan9 is offline  
Old March 28, 2013, 02:56 PM   #74
spacecoast
Senior Member
 
Join Date: October 14, 2009
Location: Sunshine and Keystone States
Posts: 4,006
Quote:
Quentin2
Senior Member

Join Date: June 18, 2009
Location: NorthWest USA
Posts: 1,189
Excellent answer, Kraig! And hard to argue with.
Which is doing more damage at 100?
spacecoast is offline  
Old March 28, 2013, 05:13 PM   #75
Strafer Gott
Senior Member
 
Join Date: May 12, 2011
Location: New Mexico
Posts: 1,089
You have to hit it first to damage it. Please, don't even consider full auto, as you are not going to have that option here.
Strafer Gott is offline  
Closed Thread

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 04:47 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
This site and contents, including all posts, Copyright © 1998-2013 S.W.A.T. Magazine
Copyright Complaints: Please direct DMCA Takedown Notices to the registered agent: thefiringline.com
Contact Us
Page generated in 0.13845 seconds with 8 queries