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Old March 19, 2013, 02:15 PM   #1
Schuetzen_Powder
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Black Powder Granulations

Swiss is changing it's granulations, not sizes, but how it actually looks. And this will soon be in the US. The change is to the rounded look. At first glance you would think that this is just bird shot. This is more uniform in consistency. Just thought that I would give you a preview....

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Old March 19, 2013, 02:23 PM   #2
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Looks like that pile of stuff under the rabbit cage...
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Old March 19, 2013, 08:55 PM   #3
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Who knows what is next.
I just bought a can of Goex. In a plastic can. Plastic. Not metal.
dc
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Old March 19, 2013, 09:15 PM   #4
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I just bought some Swiss powder, it will be interesting to try out the new formulation.
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Old March 19, 2013, 09:44 PM   #5
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It's still black powder, right?
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Old March 20, 2013, 07:33 AM   #6
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Yes it is still black powder, They haven't changed the formula just the way that it looks. With this new granulation, you will find it easier and more accurate to measure.
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Old March 20, 2013, 07:53 AM   #7
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Sure, that's what they say.
The regular granulation often needs load redevelopment every time you get a new lot number. I bet the new Black Ball stuff will for sure.
I have a pretty good supply of 1 1/2 and will not likely find out how much it matters til next year.
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Old March 20, 2013, 08:36 AM   #8
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Has Swiss done any testing to see if there are ballistic changes with the new formulation?

A lot of people have invested a lot of time in developing a good load for their firearm. Will they have to re-develop an accurate load?

Steve
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Old March 20, 2013, 08:36 AM   #9
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Interesting. But you pic of the current bp on the right looks nothing like the Swiss I have.
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Old March 20, 2013, 07:56 PM   #10
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They must have a new press to get little pellets of black goodness.
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Old March 20, 2013, 10:23 PM   #11
Sure Shot Mc Gee
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I wonder by going to the Ball Powder look. Wouldn't this new powder burn more efficient? and measure out better also?
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Old March 21, 2013, 08:08 AM   #12
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Quote:
They must have a new press to get little pellets of black goodness.
Nope. They changed to rabbits...

Quote:
Wouldn't this new powder burn more efficient? And measure out better
Don't know what 'measure out better' really means, but round is better from the standpoint of making oxygen available. Round is the least 'efficient' shape for packing as each ball can contact another ball in only one point, but that also means each ball is 'surrounded' by more air, so yes, I would think it should burn more efficiently.
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Old March 21, 2013, 09:18 AM   #13
Schuetzen_Powder
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This is called the "Caviar Granulation" and will be available in the states this summer. And it hasn't changed really anything about the effectiveness or how it burns. Swiss set us a sample to look at and test, the only thing that we see is that it measures easier per load. But when this comes in, check some out for yourselves and let us know what you think. Right now, we believe that this will be available in the most popular granulation sizes, 1Fg, 1.5Fg, and the 3Fg. It will be interesting to hear what others think about this.
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Old March 21, 2013, 10:55 AM   #14
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This is called the "Caviar Granulation"
I'm betting "mouse poop" sticks instead.

I've been meaning to try Swiss powder as some people have claimed it burns cleaner than Goex.

Steve
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Old March 21, 2013, 12:37 PM   #15
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Round is the least 'efficient' shape for packing as each ball can contact another ball in only one point, but that also means each ball is 'surrounded' by more air, so yes, I would think it should burn more efficiently.
I bet you compress it with regular force and those pellets will get all mushed together, just like real black powder. Besides, BP don't need air. Don't see an advantage except it might meter better through a powder measure on a press. Might be good for CAS folks that reload a lot, but won't do much for me.
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Old March 21, 2013, 01:21 PM   #16
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If it meters beter/more consistently, then it will also be a plus to people who shoot competitively as in the N-SSA and MLAIC.

Steve
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Old March 21, 2013, 04:21 PM   #17
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Originally Posted by noelf2
I bet you compress it with regular force and those pellets will get all mushed together, just like real black powder. Besides, BP don't need air.
Might crush and it might not - we don't know at this point. You can't 'crush' regular black powder - you can bust up some of the granules, but to actually crush it to a finer powder - enough to reduce volume - takes either a grinding motion or much more force than you can generate with a loading lever. These pellets are probably just as hard, if not harder, than regular black powder in that respect.

As far as needing air, you are correct that black powder produces it's own oxygen for combustion, but additional oxygen will help the reaction progress.
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Old March 22, 2013, 10:26 AM   #18
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You can't 'crush' regular black powder - you can bust up some of the granules, but to actually crush it to a finer powder - enough to reduce volume - takes either a grinding motion or much more force than you can generate with a loading lever.
Not to be contrary, but I have compressed BP so hard that it seemed to be one contiguous mass, almost like a Pyrodex or 777 pellet. Only way I could get it back out of the case was to scrape it out. If there were air gaps between granules, it was not detectable by the naked eye. I couldn't make out granules at all.

Quote:
As far as needing air, you are correct that black powder produces it's own oxygen for combustion, but additional oxygen will help the reaction progress.
If that is so, then BP would burn quicker in a pile than it would confined in a case or chamber. Don't believe that's the case.
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Old March 22, 2013, 01:36 PM   #19
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I am no expert in these kinds of things.

I would not think that packing the powder would have much impact by the amount of exposed air. As was pointed out, BP has its own oxidizer.

What I think might be affected, however, is flame propagation through the charge, which might affect how rapidly all the granules catch on fire.

Maybe explosives behave differently as a solid mass though, I don't know.

Steve
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Old March 22, 2013, 02:50 PM   #20
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Black powder is erroneously considered an explosive. It's not. It's a propellent. If you pressed it hard enough to be a solid mass, which I think I have or pretty nearly have , it is still little separate bits of charcoal, saltpetre, and sulfur, burning from top to bottom, bottom to top, side to side, inside to out, dependent on where you started the burn. Getting the burn reaction started is easier with granules compared to a solid mass. Granules have more surface area exposed. Larger granules have more air space between them, but the burn reaction is a bit slower. Smaller grains are the opposite, and burn rate is quicker. I believe it has more to do with exposed surface area than air. That's why I question the air helps a bit theory. I would bet that there would be little difference, if any, in the burn rate of a particular BP granulation in a vacuum versus our atmosphere.
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Old March 22, 2013, 05:12 PM   #21
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Gentelman...

...Gunpowder, also known since the late 19th century as black powder, was the first chemical explosive and the only one known until the mid-1800s. It is a mixture of sulfur, charcoal, and potassium nitrate (saltpetre)—with the sulfur and charcoal acting as fuels, while the saltpeter works as an oxidizer. Because of its burning properties and the amount of heat and gas volume that it generates, gunpowder has been widely used as a propellant in firearms and as a pyrotechnic composition in fireworks.

Gunpowder is classified as a low explosive because of its relatively slow decomposition rate and consequently low brisance. Low explosives deflagrate (i.e., burn) at subsonic speeds, whereas high explosives detonate, producing a supersonic wave. Ignition of the powder packed behind a bullet must generate enough pressure to force it from the muzzle at high speed, but not enough to rupture the gun barrel. Gunpowder thus makes a good propellant, but is less suitable for shattering rock or fortifications. Gunpowder was widely used to fill artillery shells and in mining and civil engineering to blast rock roughly until the second half of the 19th century, when the first high explosives (nitro-explosives) were discovered. Gunpowder is no longer used in modern explosive military warheads, nor is it used as main explosive in mining operations due to its cost relative to that of newer alternatives such as ammonium nitrate/fuel oil (ANFO).

It seems, there is a discrepancy (on this thread) as to whether black powder is an explosive or propellant, so I can only refer as to what BAFTE classify it as. You MUST be federally licenced to sell real black powder (as they CLEARLY classify it as an explosive) and do not require this licence, to sell substitutes. This is why all the chain stores sell substitutes. Substitutes ARE classified as propellants. Black powder is indeed an explosive and also classified as "low level".

Anyone who knows anything about real black powder will tell you "compaction is everything". It is simply one of the variable characteristics of it's unique properties. How much compaction, more or less is open to the end user and subject to results!

Birch
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Old March 22, 2013, 10:33 PM   #22
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......so I can only refer as to what BAFTE classify it as.
Generally speaking, it's best to avoid applying legal definitions as opposed to scientific ones when discussing physics. There are many deflagrants that are susceptible to deflagration to detonation transition, yet are not classified as explosives.

Besides, if we believe everything the government tells us we would have to refer to S. Logan as MLK.
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Old March 23, 2013, 07:26 AM   #23
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^^^

Aint that the truth!



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Old March 23, 2013, 08:57 AM   #24
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Even though the BATF classifies black powder as an explosive, mostly because of some arcane testing criteria, it is functionally a propellent. If it was me that made the rules, I would either exempt sporting black powder from being an explosive or change the testing criteria so it doesn't include black powder.

Sure, you can make a pipe bomb with it but you can also do that with Pyrodex, 777, or even Bullseye. Actually, you can fill a pipe with water, throw it in a bonfire, and you better be far far away when it bursts.
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Old March 23, 2013, 10:40 AM   #25
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Compare 1f to flash powder...what's the difference? Flash powder is just smaller bits of the same stuff. The finer the powder the bigger the bang.
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