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Old April 4, 2013, 06:23 PM   #1
GeoP
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How many jurisdictions force families wanting one HD gun to have two?

For all practical purposes my jurisdiction forces my spouse and I to have two separate home defense handguns, even though when we want just one.

My jurisdiction is Washington DC. There is an irony in that we have very strong gun laws, ostensibly to reduce the number of guns.

It is illegal for my wife, anywhere in DC, including our home, to handle the weapon, engage in routine maintenance, dry firing etc which are all best practice safety recommendations.

It is also impossible for her to legally transport the weapon herself to any kind of practice, at a range or even scheduled NRA course, unloaded, slide disassembled, and with no ammo, even in a locked box within a locked car trunk.

The city will not test her or run the NCIS check required on all gun possession licences without a separate and unique serial number for a separate and unique gun. Moreover, even if we had two guns, two spouses who have passed all training, safety tests, all NCIS checks, cannot touch each other's weapons, even with permission.

The only exception is a case of life or death immediate threat. The city says this is sufficient, but this obviously precludes or makes practically very difficult all recommended regular training without legal risk. That training and practice is both an individual and public good. Yet if a neighbor sees my wife practice dry firing and calls the cops, it is a serious crime for me to have allowed her to touch the weapon.

I sent a note to the city council committee people responsible for the laws. They acknowledged this problem and seem amenable to looking at it.

I have asked them to consider allowing spouses to be issued the same possession licence on the same serial numbers) providing they pass required training, tests and NCIS.

In wondering what the case is other "strong gun law" states essentially require two guns spousal households, and multiple guns in the case of adult children as well when the family may be happy with one gun?

I believe in NJ there are two licences types (not including carry which is not the issue here). One to possess generically and one for the specific gun gun. That seems to allow people without a serial number to go through the checks and be issued a licence without a gun, and be able to transport locked and unloaded a souses gun. But I am not sure of that either.

Any informed info on comparative state laws, and how this is dealt with, would be appreciated.
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Old April 4, 2013, 06:27 PM   #2
Spats McGee
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Welcome to TFL!

Try here: http://www.handgunlaw.us/

So you can't put the same firearm on both permits?
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Old April 4, 2013, 06:36 PM   #3
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That's...nuts. We aren't "forced" to have multiple guns, we actually want to - one fits me well, and hers fits her well. The mere notion that I couldn't legally touch my wife's sidearm is so alien to me as to be mind boggling...
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Old April 4, 2013, 06:56 PM   #4
Willie Sutton
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I believe in NJ there are two licences types (not including carry which is not the issue here). One to possess generically and one for the specific gun.


Your understanding is not correct. There is no such thing in NJ. Posession in the home is not even addressed. You need a Firearms ID card to purchase or transport a long gun, and to allow you to apply for a handgun purchase permit. The handgun purchase permit allows purchase of one handgun of your choice, and a permit can be issued every 30 days. Each is good for 90 days (check this, it's been a few years since I bought a handgun in NJ). Once you posess it, you can do as you please in your home, transport to a range, allow others to shoot, etc. Essentially once you have it, you have it. If you move in from another state there is no need to register it.

License to carry... completely different animal.


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Old April 4, 2013, 07:01 PM   #5
GeoP
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@Spats. Thank you. Yes I have looked there on handgunlaw. I appreciate the effort. but for example the first place I looked was the NJ section because I know they have two non carry permits; one to seemingly qualify you to "buy," and one to own. The first one looks to allow you to transport unloaded weapons. I do not think the weapon's serial number is on one of the permit types. In DC the serial number is on the only permit type, and you must always have it with the gun.

I had hoped that others in states with "strong" laws might know how it works in their state might chime in

And no, in DC you can't put the same handgun on two permits. That would be the no brain solution you and I both though of but the law writers did not.

My wife has two NRA certificates and given that hse has a sec clearance she an pass the NCIS, The city will not administer the NCIS to allow her to touch a weapon without a unique solely owned handgun

My last call they asked if I could find out about how other states handled this.

@armored. I will probably get two weapons. It is kind of sickening since the minimum FFL fee alone here is $125 . I am really doing this for future persons as I don't have confidence anything would change in a year or two.

@willy. than you. I do know there are two non carry documents in NJ. That is what I was refering to.
From what I read the does NOT require a gun. It enable you to buy a gun but also apparently to handle one with permission. no?

In DC you cannot get a permit to buy a gun. You must buy the gun, keep at the DC FFL and AFTER you have it there, apply for a permit to posses a gun --- owned but not yet possessed by you in the FFL's custody as the serial number.

Last edited by GeoP; April 4, 2013 at 07:08 PM.
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Old April 4, 2013, 07:09 PM   #6
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GAH! Umm, unless you HAVE to stay there, we have a LOT of room out here in AZ, we'd love to have you two.
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Old April 4, 2013, 07:09 PM   #7
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Your thread is still young, GeoP. We've got members from all over, including the more restrictive jurisdictions. I'm sure someone will be along to help.

As a possible solution . . . You said that part of the problem is:
Quote:
It is also impossible for her to legally transport the weapon herself to any kind of practice, at a range or even scheduled NRA course, unloaded, slide disassembled, and with no ammo, even in a locked box within a locked car trunk. . . . .

The only exception is a case of life or death immediate threat. The city says this is sufficient, but this obviously precludes or makes practically very difficult all recommended regular training without legal risk. That training and practice is both an individual and public good.
Have you considered purchasing two of the same gun, or at least "operationally identical" (for lack of a better term) guns? For example, if you like .45 and she likes 9mm, well, a .45 Glock operates the same way as a 9mm Glock. She could practice with her gun and, but the controls on your gun would be the same.
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Old April 4, 2013, 07:12 PM   #8
GeoP
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@willy I am not referring to carry. My wife can, and will, go to jail for a round of 9mm in the car without me absent her own licence. She can go to jail for cleaning the gun in the home or dry firing with a penny to practice. She cannot go to the range or NRA lessons with the family weapon locked in the trunk with no ammo.

She is able to pass all competence and NCIS tests but will not be administered those tests by DC without already owning her own gun that owned by no one else.

That is why I referred to NJ documents. The FOID is first right? Are you are qualified by the state before or after the FOID issuance? In DC the FFL and the DC Firearms office both run NCIS on you. Does NJ run a NCIS on you when you get the FOID without a gun?

Last edited by GeoP; April 4, 2013 at 07:32 PM.
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Old April 4, 2013, 07:27 PM   #9
GeoP
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Quote:
Have you considered purchasing two of the same gun, or at least "operationally identical" (for lack of a better term) guns? For example, if you like .45 and she likes 9mm, well, a .45 Glock operates the same way as a 9mm Glock. She could practice with her gun and, but the controls on your gun would be the same.
Spats. Thank you. that is what we will almost certainly do. Most likely the same model line, perhaps one in 40 or 45, and one in 9. if the exact same model of different calibers I will probably find her a stainless so they don't get mixed up.

Still, I did bring this up with the senior staffers and the head of the city council, and actually got several telephone follow-ups from them recognizing the problem. So I am inclined to think perhaps they may (eventually) address it. It would be good to forward them some suggestions based on what other states with "strong" laws do to avoid this specific problem for people in my shoes in future.

What I sent to them last week was:
Problem:
The only options regarding qualified spouse on home defense handgun seem to be:
1) Purchase a second unneeded handgun; or
2) Have the owning spouse accompany the non-owner spouse to every training course and range session (all out of state); or forgo such training; and also forgo responsible best practice handgun safety recommendations of regular and recurring handing and dry fire practice at home

Recommendations:
a) be permitted to possess after all requirements on the same weapon by serial number (co-ownership); or
b) be permitted after meeting all requirements generically on a/any legal guns owned and DC registered by a spouse (not co-ownership)

Last edited by GeoP; April 4, 2013 at 07:32 PM.
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Old April 4, 2013, 09:34 PM   #10
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May I suggest you get identical firearms of the same caliber, but give hers distinctive grips? This would simplify ammunition and spare parts requirements, and would prevent you from walking out with the gun with the rose colored grips. Just a random though. I wish you the best, sir.
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Old April 4, 2013, 10:23 PM   #11
GeoP
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@armored. Thank you, Yes that is also a good idea. Keep on mind these are all additional ~$800 costs over my need for one home defense weapon.

But I would mostly like to focus on getting some data on how many other jurisdictions there are in which this occurs.

Seems to me a public case can be made of an irony. Over-strong gun laws, which gun control advocates think limit firearms, in DC force homeowners owners to buy and keep multiple firearms to satisfy legal and safety requirements -- even if they would only wish to have one.

By gun control advocates' views, more legal firearms are a per se danger to the public. Either immediately or over the very long term due to eroded accountability. Yet the way the law is constructed it works against their stated position of less guns

There is also the issue of helping future gun owners from my own experiences and the knowledge firingline members may have. Let's say I can find someone on the council who would offer a tweak to fix this narrow issue. I'd at least like to offer DC council firearms law staff experts some suggestion based on the most data. So I'd like to find supporting analogies in other states if there are any
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Old April 5, 2013, 12:29 AM   #12
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When it comes to handguns (and with the Safe Act, AWs), NY has the same concept. If you are not licensed to that particular handgun, you cannot touch it, or shoot it. This includes at home with a "premises" type permit where you can have a handgun at home, or at your business.

However, in NY it is possible to have more than one person licensed to handle a particular pistol. (MN/SN)
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Old April 5, 2013, 06:04 AM   #13
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From GeoP:
"That is why I referred to NJ documents. The FOID is first right? Are you are qualified by the state before or after the FOID issuance?"

In NJ, to purchase any gun or ammo, you need to first apply for, and obtain a FOID card, usually through the local police. (State police if there is no local PD in your township.) To purchase a handgun, you need to apply for, and obtain, a separate handgun permit via the same way. You can apply for both the above at the same time and they are processed together. You need a separate handgun permit for each handgun and each is good for 90 days (and can be extended for an additional 90 days (I believe)). You may only purchase one handgun per 30 days.

From your posts, it sounds like you're allowed to own a handgun in DC, have it in your home, but not allowed to practice with it?
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Old April 5, 2013, 06:29 AM   #14
GeoP
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Quote:
In NJ, to purchase any gun or ammo, you need to first apply for, and obtain a FOID card, usually through the local police. (State police if there is no local PD in your township.) To purchase a handgun, you need to apply for, and obtain, a separate handgun permit via the same way. You can apply for both the above at the same time and they are processed together. You need a separate handgun permit for each handgun and each is good for 90 days (and can be extended for an additional 90 days (I believe)). You may only purchase one handgun per 30 days.

From your posts, it sounds like you're allowed to own a handgun in DC, have it in your home, but not allowed to practice with it?
Yes. From my non expert reading, the NJ FOID does not require or contain a serial number or require first owning a weapon to obtain. Again my non expert read indicated spouse #1 can get a NJ FOID, and then get a handgun permit. Spouse #2 can get then get a FOID only and it seems be able to legally buy and handle ammunition, and legally transport the weapon unloaded to a training class, hunting or range(ie a legal but not "formal" activity), and also routinely handled the weapon in the home.

In DC this process as well as the process of multiple individuals (spouses, adult children) getting permits on the same handgun is impossible, even for qualified individuals.


On the last question here is how it works in DC:
I am allowed to handle my weapon in all ways, clean, dry fire, practice access from quick access, unload.
I am allowed to transport my weapon as long as my permit is with it at all times, unloaded, locked in trunk to legal activities, including range practice, lessons, hunting etc. All of those would be outside of DC where we have no ranges and where discharge is essentially illegal everywhere anyway.

My wife and seemingly any person is seems allowed in an imminent life or death situation to use the weapon, but under no other circumstances touch it or the ammo. She must get her own weapon, and even in that case we cant touch each other's legally.

If I drive my wife to a range in Va, as soon as we pass the border into Va we are in VA juristiciton and as long as it is unloaded she no longer needs me to be with her, and can handle and and fire the gun at the range.

If I lose a single round of ammo in the trunk, and it is found in DC with my wife in the car alone, and she has no permit she is committing a gun crime and one that is in fact prosecuted

Last edited by GeoP; April 5, 2013 at 06:37 AM.
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Old April 5, 2013, 06:30 AM   #15
Willie Sutton
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@willy. than you. I do know there are two non carry documents in NJ. That is what I was refering to. From what I read the does NOT require a gun. It enable you to buy a gun but also apparently to handle one with permission. no?


Uhh... not really.

There is NOTHING in NJ that you need to do to (handle, play with, shoot under supervision, etc) any firearm. If you have a legally procured firearm in your home you need nothing at all. You might have inherited from someone or brought your firearms in when you moved to NJ and you need do nothing to posess them *within your home* or on your property. If you live on a farm you can shoot them in your backyard without any paper. It's PURCHASE and TRANPORTATION that require ID, and even then the transportation part of it is not completely prohibited.


THREE Documents to BUY, TRANSPORT, or CARRY a firearm in NJ:


FID, = Firearms ID Card. Required to PURCHASE a long gun and to APPLY FOR a permit to purchase a handgun.

Permit to Purchase a Handgun: A ONE USE ONLY "permission slip" to purchase ONE handgun. You do not "carry it around" in the future with the handgun that you purchased. If you are going to the range and are stopped for speeding and for some reason you are stupid enough to allow a consent search of your car, and you have a handgun in your trunk separate from your ammunition, showing your FID card is all you would need to do. Your "handgun purchase permit" has zero to do with anything other than being handed over at the gun store when you purchase.

CCW: Not worth discussing as they are not issued to the general public. Lawsuits may change that.


Frankly, I think you are all worked up about nothing, unless you believe that DC Police Spies are infiltrating your apartment or house.


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Old April 5, 2013, 06:56 AM   #16
GeoP
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Quote:
Frankly, I think you are all worked up about nothing, unless you believe that DC Police Spies are infiltrating your apartment or house.
I think that is not good advice at all. In DC there is a reward system for reporting any possible crime having to do with guns. Also 99% of the people here would be freaked out by the idea of one.

People carrying their registered cased long guns from their door to the trunk of their car find themselves surrounded by cops here on occasion.

I don't think you would say "worked up about nothing" if you followed the type of prosecutions that have occurred. The DC council, when voting possessing ammo without a licence as a crime discussed it being an add on
. It was supposed to be there to add aggravating circumstances and higher penalties if you had a gun and ammunition.
Despite that we have had decorated combat veterans with a half dozen of rounds inadvertently in a backpack and no gun, sentenced to prison here in the past couple of years.

If you think, by any stretch that the police and and the (federal) prosecutors in DC will give you break because you are not a gang-banger, you would be dead wrong. Don't dot one "i" or cross one "t" here and you go to prison.

So no offense but dont lecture me on on "worked up over nothing." I don't live on a farm. I live next to the people who work for Fienstien, Schumer and Brady. If my kid sees me cleaning a weapon at home and mentions it to the Code Pink soccer mom in our car pool I could have the cops at my door in a second. I live in the kind of place that makes the story of the 12 year old on facebook legally holding a rifle and seeing his family home SWAT raided look like small potatoes.

I am not going to risk my wife going to prison for a single round of ammo in the trunk.

As far as the NJ law the two different type of non-carry documents do afford some kind of mitigation of legal jeopardy. For example I know that with a FOID you can buy ammo.So possessing an FOID and owning no gun does give some additional rights and protections. I am just trying to parse it precisely
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Old April 5, 2013, 07:13 AM   #17
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Quote:
GAH! Umm, unless you HAVE to stay there, we have a LOT of room out here in AZ, we'd love to have you two.
Good call!!!! Off to Rio Salado this morning with a Ruger M77V 22-250, Sig P226 and Smith and Wesson 1911 Pro.

Should be a wonderful day.
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Old April 5, 2013, 08:22 AM   #18
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I made my wife get a FOID card long before she was into shooting for a whole host of reasons. If she borrowed my truck and I forgot I left a box of rifle rounds in the center console (happened for a month at one point) and she was pulled over without a FOID she would have been arrested.

In "theory" she wouldn't have been arrested if she had used one of my guns to defend our home but TECHNICALLY she could have.

The good news is my wife has taken to guns like a fish to water over the last couple of years, she now even has her own (an M&P Shield)...and she can't keep her hands off of my rifles either...that will be my next project for her, building a purple AR bit I digress.

While the Illinois FOID system is not as bad as DC, it is just safer for all Adult residents of a home to have one.


To the OP, follow the letter of the law exactly in DC. After readily Emily Millers articles on the insanity of DC gun law and the zeal with which they go after anyone even a tiny fraction outside the law I would never even consider coming within 20 miles of DC with a firearm or ammunition, its not worth the risk.

To all you other TFLers if you have some free time check out Emily Millers Blog @ The Washington Times, she has detailed over the past couple of years several high profile cases where people are being railroaded over poorly writter, ambiguous laws.

http://www.washingtontimes.com/blog/guns/


Quote:
When it comes to handguns (and with the Safe Act, AWs), NY has the same concept. If you are not licensed to that particular handgun, you cannot touch it, or shoot it. This includes at home with a "premises" type permit where you can have a handgun at home, or at your business.
Just when I think Illinois has some pretty bad gun laws, I pause when I read things like this and thank god I am not in a far more restrictive than I am. I take for granted that when my brother in law comes into town from Ohio he can just shoot any of my firearms he well pleases...
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Old April 5, 2013, 09:13 AM   #19
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"It is illegal for my wife, anywhere in DC, including our home, to handle the weapon, engage in routine maintenance, dry firing etc which are all best practice safety recommendations."

Can you explain to me how they can prevent your wife from handling the firearm in her own home?

This is obviously a law which cannot be enforced.
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Old April 5, 2013, 09:18 AM   #20
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If a criminal breaks in when the woman is home alone and is forced to shoot the criminal then she is handling the weapon isint she? Pretty easy to prove she was the shooter too.

New York City is trying to throw a wealthy business man in jail for 3 years because he used a handgun registered to his body guard to defend his home.

It sounds far fetched to people like myself who live with relative firearms freedom , but it IS happening in rabbid anti gun places like DC, New York etc.

Going back years and years I can recall stories in places like NY, New Jersey, California where the spirit of the law is being followed but because of some technicality caused by the vagueries of the laws as written some hot shot prosecutor tries to throw the good guy in jail and make him or her a felon.
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Old April 5, 2013, 09:38 AM   #21
Willie Sutton
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As far as the NJ law the two different type of non-carry documents do afford some kind of mitigation of legal jeopardy. For example I know that with a FOID you can buy ammo.So possessing an FOID and owning no gun does give some additional rights and protections. I am just trying to parse it precisely




Well... You're parsing it incorrectly. You don't even need to show ID to buy ammunition in NJ.


no offense but dont lecture me on on "worked up over nothing."


Nobody is lecturing you, but you do offer offense. Your assumptions regarding NJ are wrong, which tells me that your assumptions regarding your own area are very likely wrong as well. So rather than taking any more time to disavow you of your faulty understanding of NJ law, I offer you "good luck" and one more bit of advice before casting the subject loose:



Since statistics point to the fact that a large fraction of single firearm owners keep their firearm in their bedroom, contemplate this with a sense of humor:

This reminds me of the army recruit who infuriated his drill sergeant by calling his M1 a "gun" one too many times. He was ordered to hold his rifle in one hand hand and his... "Equipment" in the other and yell 50 times "this is my rifle and this is my gun. One is for killing the other for fun". My educated guess is that if you are where your lady friend can handle your gun it's probably safe for you to let her handle your revolver, big-boy ;-)








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Old April 5, 2013, 12:58 PM   #22
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Willy
"You don't even need to show ID to buy ammunition in NJ."

I'm not sure when they enacted it, but now you do. You need a FOID card to buy ammo, and if the LGS doesn't know you, he want's to see your photo ID also. The guys at Dick's and Lawman Supply always ask and all ammo purchases are recorded in a log book at the sales desk. At Dick's, sometimes they require it again at the cash register check-out line. It's dumb. I can drive 20 minutes over the bridge to Philly and buy ammo (if there's any available, anyway) with no hassle.
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Old April 5, 2013, 02:20 PM   #23
Willie Sutton
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You do not need a FID card to buy ammunition in NJ.

You may be asked for one as a store policy, but it's not statute.

Dicks requires it.

Go to The Bullet Hole and you will not be asked for it.


Big corporate policy is not law.


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Old April 5, 2013, 02:21 PM   #24
Spats McGee
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Just a friendly reminder that the topic at hand is:
Quote:
Originally Posted by GeoP
In wondering what the case is other "strong gun law" states essentially require two guns spousal households, and multiple guns in the case of adult children as well when the family may be happy with one gun?
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