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Old March 20, 2013, 05:32 AM   #1
Glock 31
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Cattleman .45LC Taylor or Uberti?

Alright, so I traded in a Ruger .22 Single Six which I bought for stupid reasons and a 7/8's full 500 round box of Winchester HV .22's for 225 dollars off a used .45LC Single Action Cattleman. (Cost 200 bucks on top of the trade in.) It says A. Uberti - Italy on the under side of the barrel and Taylor & Co. on the top of the barrel. Apart from some minor scratching in the finish on the top of the barrel the revolver is in seemingly excellent condition (the Ruger was very worn and the previous owner didn't seem to care for it well).

Am I correct in assuming from what I've found online, that Uberti made the gun and Taylor & Co. just imported it to the US to some gun store that the previous owner bought it from? I'm not familiar with revolvers in general and have never actually heard of either companies until now. A few threads I've found say Uberti is well above average on quality when it comes to these cowboy guns, just not as good as Colt. How would people here rate Uberti?

My gun seems to be the Single Action Cattleman 1873 Hombre NM shown here:
http://www.uberti.com/firearms/singl...-cattleman.php
http://www.uberti.com/firearms/image...m_matte_lg.jpg

A few clarifications i'd like to know, what does NM stand for in the Uberti product description? Also, it looks like the 1873 model but on the left side of the frame just below the cylinder it says Pat. Sept. 19, 1871 Pat July 2, 1872. Were they just rounding up or was mine some older model not listed?

I've also seen some descriptions that my gun is a replica of the Colt Peacemaker while others describe it as the Colt Army. Again, i'm not familiar with revolvers much and certainly not knowledgeable in the old west models produced during and soon after the civil war. Any clarification on my gun's origins and what it was made to represent or imitate would be appreciated. Any links to old american west firearms history would also not go amiss.







Last edited by Glock 31; March 20, 2013 at 05:40 AM.
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Old March 20, 2013, 06:30 AM   #2
dalegribble
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your gun was made by uberti. your finish looks like their entry level model. nm means new model. i am not sure about all the differences between the nm and the old model but the old model had a screw to remove the pin in order to remove the cylinder. the nm just has a pin to pull to remove the cylinder. as for quality, i have 3 different models of the blued, case hardened uberti 45's. all are excellent with great fit and finish and very accurate even with the notch sights. i love mine.
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Old March 20, 2013, 07:58 AM   #3
feets
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Taylor would be the importer.

Remember that it's a fine gun but it's no Ruger. Do NOT use the heavy Colt and Ruger only loads. They will scatter that thing.

It should lead a nice long life running standard Colt loads.
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Old March 20, 2013, 08:02 AM   #4
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Wow! I got to get me one of those electron microscope cameras
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Old March 20, 2013, 08:51 AM   #5
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Hmmmmm. Uberti states the NM means New Model, works for me. The Army model normally is thought of having a 7 1/2 inch barrel, but on copies ( copy not clones ) I don't think the name Peacemaker, Army or what ever means a hill of beans, of course that is just my opinion.
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Old March 20, 2013, 07:27 PM   #6
Bob Wright
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As to Old Model and Pre-War frames, as far as Uberti is concerned, the Old Model has a base pin retaining screw inserted from the front of the frame, and a rounded ejector rod head.

The Pre War Model has the cross bolt base pin latch and crescent ejector rod head.

Here is the base pin retaining screw on an Old Model:



And the round ejector rod head:



As for the Pre War, here is the crescent ejector rod head:



And a Pre War Frame, the cross bolt latch visible just behind the head of the base pin:



And, yeah, for you of sharp eyes, the ejector roda are on the same gun. I swapped then out after acquiring this revolver.

Bob Wright

Last edited by Bob Wright; March 20, 2013 at 07:35 PM.
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Old March 21, 2013, 09:59 PM   #7
Glock 31
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Ammo

Thanks for the replies guys.

I've only gotten to shoot 1 box of 50 through the cattleman so far. I used 250 gr. rnfp Black Hills Ammunition. Is this too powerful a load? Admittedly for owning a gun I don't know much about it's history or about ammunition velocities, loads, etc. I just know how much I like them, and how to safely handle them to include knowing not to carry or store the cattleman with a full 6 round loaded cylinder.

Quote:
Wow! I got to get me one of those electron microscope cameras
Lol, Samsung Galaxy Nexus phone. But it did take a few tries. If the pictures show up automatically, and makes the thread all bigger than your screen. You can chose to not automatically show pictures in your profile settings. Had that problem.

Last edited by Glock 31; March 21, 2013 at 10:23 PM.
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Old March 21, 2013, 10:13 PM   #8
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Quote:
Also, it looks like the 1873 model but on the left side of the frame just below the cylinder it says Pat. Sept. 19, 1871 Pat July 2, 1872. Were they just rounding up or was mine some older model not listed?
Since no one else addressed this, I will. ANY 1873 Colt (original or clone) that is dated will have the 1871 and 1872 patent dates. The 1873 in the Model 1873 name refers to the year the US Army adopted the Colt, not the year it was patented. They could not have tested it and accepted it before it was invented, right?

Also, Single Action Army technically refers to the 45 Colt models with the 7-1/2" barrel, but has come to have the same meaning and is applied to all the Colt Model P Single Action revolvers and lookalikes. Peacemaker was a later marketing name that Colt thought up.
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Old March 21, 2013, 10:17 PM   #9
Glock 31
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Thanks for clarification Scorch. It would be nice to own a peacemaker made and used back in the day but I'm sure they're either collectors pieces no one in their right minds would actually shoot, or they're too deteriorated to be useful anymore. Still, i'm happy with the clone, copy or lookalike that mine is. It's the prettiest gun I own and certainly has some power behind it.

And thank you to Bob Wright on the old/new model comparisons.
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Old March 22, 2013, 09:56 PM   #10
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I have the exact same gun. I had to file about 1/8 inch off the front sight to get it on the paper. The gun is fun to shoot. Its my first SA. I do reload and it seems like, the lighter the bullet and powder charge the more accurate it gets. I am using 185 grain swc with 5 grains of trail boss powder. I am not sure why the lighter loads make it more accurate. Maybe someone on here could shed some light on that.
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Old March 24, 2013, 04:45 PM   #11
Bob Wright
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Quote:
Big Steve: I do reload and it seems like, the lighter the bullet and powder charge the more accurate it gets. I am using 185 grain swc with 5 grains of trail boss powder. I am not sure why the lighter loads make it more accurate. Maybe someone on here could shed some light on that.
I'm inclined to believe that certain combinations of bullet and powder tend to be the "just right" combination for your gun, regardless of powder and charge. You say 185 gr. But if you tinkered around long enough, maybe a 250 gr. or heavier would yeild the same results.

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Old March 24, 2013, 06:59 PM   #12
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Current Uberti clones in .45 Colt can handle any commercial .45 Colt load at STANDARD pressures.
Stay away from anything labeled +P, and avoid the hot CorBon & Buffalo Bore higher-pressure stuff.
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Old March 24, 2013, 10:58 PM   #13
newfrontier45
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The "Old Model" frame also has the pinched sights. Which are a V-notch and narrow front blade and rather difficult to use. Unless, of course, it's a flat-top target model like Bob's. The New Model has a square rear notch and blade more like a 2nd generation Colt.


Quote:
You can chose to not automatically show pictures in your profile settings.
No, you need to resize your pics like everybody else. A good size that allows most users to download and see them without scrolling back and forth is 800x600. Yours are 2586x1707 and that's just way too big.
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Old March 25, 2013, 03:46 PM   #14
Bob Wright
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I don't think Uberti uses the "pinched frame" rear sight. Their literature describes only the base pin latch and ejector rod heads as being the only differences in Uberti guns.

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Old March 25, 2013, 03:50 PM   #15
newfrontier45
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I've had three Uberti SAA's with the pinched frame sights. Two of them have the crosspin frame. So they 'may' all have the pinched sights.
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Old March 25, 2013, 08:40 PM   #16
Bob Wright
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Well, I've tried Uberti's web page and Cimarron's web page and can find no mention of pinched frame models. Uberti calls theirs Old Model and New Model, and Cimarron calls theirs Blackpowder and Pre War Models. Some photos show a knurled head base pin retaining screw, others a slotted head screw.

I've never seen a pinched frame, not that they don't exist. As pointed out mine was a Flat Top, so of course, no pinched frame. I'm finding that variations exist in Ubertis according to the importer. My three are two from Stoeger and one Cimarron. My only other one was from Iver Johnson, and that ca. 1975.

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Old March 25, 2013, 08:46 PM   #17
Bob Wright
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This caught my eye on Taylor & Co.'s web site:

Quote:
It boasts a low-profile hammer and wider-style sights that allow for faster sight acquisition without cocking the pistol.
Why on earth would anybody do that?

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Old March 25, 2013, 08:58 PM   #18
Bob Wright
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Newfrontier45:

Of the three Ubertis you've had/have, what type safties did they have?

My Stoeger Flat Top and my Cattleman (Iver Johnson) have the hammer block safety. My Uberti Stallion and Model P (Cimarron) have the "Swiss Safe" safety, utilizing the base pin as a hammer block.

Incidentally, here is the original retaining screw on my Flat Top:



Looked awful, to me, so replaced it with a slotted head screw.

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Old March 25, 2013, 11:54 PM   #19
newfrontier45
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I've got an early USPFA made of Uberti parts (bought used in `04) with the setscrew basepin retention and Swiss style safety. I've got a Uberti Cattleman .32-20 (bought new in `06) that has the crosspin frame and Swiss style safety. I used to have a Uberti Bisley .44Spl (bought new in `08) that also had the crosspin frame and Swiss style safety.

Does your fixed sight "Pre War" above not have the V-notch rear sight and narrow little tapered front blade? I find these very difficult to use, even compared to percussion guns.

I have to amend my earlier statement. The only Uberti's I've seen that didn't have the pinched frame sights are the Evil Roy models from Cimarron. There's a couple other competition oriented guns that I believe also have them.

USFA strictly used the pinched sights on the blackpowder frame models and the nicely squared notch and blade on the smokeless frame models.
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Old March 26, 2013, 08:55 AM   #20
Bob Wright
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Quote:
Newfrontier45:
Does your fixed sight "Pre War" above not have the V-notch rear sight and narrow little tapered front blade? I find these very difficult to use, even compared to percussion guns.

I have to amend my earlier statement. The only Uberti's I've seen that didn't have the pinched frame sights are the Evil Roy models from Cimarron.
Cimarron's "Pre War" is the "New Model" that is, the pre-WW II Colt design, with the square notch and Patridge front sights.

As I've said, I have never, to my knowledge, seen a pinched frame revolver, only photos dealing with that Colt model frame. All the single actions I have ever owned either had the late Colt SAA style sights, or had Flat Top frames or adjustable sights.

I had a Colt New Service with the U-shaped rear and Vee type front sight. Had a hard time holding elevation and soon replaced that. This was not a pinched frame, however.

Bob Wright
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Old March 26, 2013, 09:04 AM   #21
Bob Wright
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Lest there be any misunderstanding, here is a comparison of a "pinched frame Colt" with the later style Vee shaped rear sight:

Well, couldn't get the photo to come in. I Googled "Pinch Frame Colts" and found a comparison of the top straps of Colts, one the rare "Pinched Frame Model" compared to the early blackpowder frame with Vee type rear sight. Note the in the pinched frame model, the rear sight is actually about 1/2" in front of the hammer.

Incidentally, the Colt "Pinched Frame" is found only on civilian models numbered below serial number 200.

Bob Wright

Last edited by Bob Wright; March 26, 2013 at 09:14 AM.
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Old March 26, 2013, 10:08 AM   #22
newfrontier45
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Well Bob, apparently the misunderstanding is mine. Somehow, in all my years of research and study, this little detail escaped me. I was under the impression that the V-notch 'was' the pinched frame.

Either way, the point remains that the blackpowder frame with the setscrew basepin retention, will typically have the V-notch sights. Whereas crosspin guns will usually have the square notch sights. Which, unless I'm suffering from more misconceptions, was something that didn't come about until the 2nd generation SAA's.
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Old March 27, 2013, 02:09 AM   #23
Glock 31
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Sorry about the image sizes, I tried typing in different sizes in Imgur but it would apply different sizes than what I set automatically for some reason.

Some of you guys are mentioning safeties on your colts/clones, mine doesn't seem to have any kind of safety that I can see. The pin is set (kind of loosely, springloaded?) into the hammer itself with just a hole through which to strike the primer. Is this normal or should my cattleman have something else that maybe was taken off of it? Let me try some more images with proper sizing.






Also need to brush that action out and oil it soon.

Last edited by Glock 31; March 27, 2013 at 02:20 AM.
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Old March 27, 2013, 09:00 AM   #24
Bob Wright
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Your last photo shows the safety, the bar that is just below the firing pin on the face of the hammer.

When the hammer is drawn back to the first notch, the safery notch, the trigger sear pushes up a rod inside the hammer, pivoting this bar down so that it impinges between the hammer face and frame. Like the Ruger transfer bar, you don't "do" anythiong to engage it, other than placing the hammer in this position.

I believe Skeeter Skelton tested this by placing a live (or blank) round under the hammer and engaging the safety. He then used a wooden hammer handle to strike the hammer spur repeatedly trying to fire the round. It didn't fire.

Here are two of my Ubertis. The one on the left has the hammer block safety:



Bob Wright

Last edited by Bob Wright; March 27, 2013 at 09:05 AM.
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Old March 28, 2013, 12:39 AM   #25
Glock 31
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Good to know Bob, thank you for clearing that up. I still keep the hammer down on an empty cylinder but it's reassuring that the gun doesn't seem to be missing anything.
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