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Old March 18, 2013, 03:27 PM   #1
Southwest Chuck
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The Fight Has Officially Been Brought to a NJ Gunowner's Front Door

This is going around the interwebs at lightning fast speed. How would most people here have reacted to this situation specifically? I know I would have refused permission to search, like the linked OP did, but I am going to give a refresher to my 2 college aged sons and make this required reading for them. You?

http://deloc.org/forums/viewtopic.php?f=13&t=8175

Quote:
The fight has officially been brought to my front door

Last night I was out with a buddy of mine. I got a text from my wife that the cops and dyfs are at the house and they wanna check out my guns and needed me to open my safe.
I'm instantly on my way. I get in contact with evan Nappen on the way. I explain the situation. I walk in my house and hand the phone to the first cop I see. Then direct all of em outside. Dyfs got a call because of a pic on my son holding a gun. They wanted to look around and check all my guns out, make sure they were all registered. Obviously that didn't go well because I refused. I had Nappen on speaker phone the entire time so they had to deal with both of us. They kept trying to pressure me to open my safe. They had no warrant, no charges, nothing. I didn't budge. I was told I was being "unreasonable" and that I was acting suspicious because I wouldn't open my safe. Told me they were gonna get a search warrant. Told em go ahead. Nappen (my lawyer) asked me for the dyfs workers name. she wouldn't give it. i asked for credentials and she wouldnt show em. i tried to take a pic of her and she turned around real fast and walked away. After a while of them threatening to take my kids, get warrants and intimidation they left. Empty handed and seeing nothing.

People it can happen that fast. Most people wouldn't have stood up to them like I did.
I think the spirit of the 4A is fast disappearing in our country. I hope there is some type of recourse for this guy and his family, if not legally, at least administratively. I hope this incident gets the media attention it deserves.

SC
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Old March 18, 2013, 03:35 PM   #2
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Wow...I hope they fire some people over this
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Old March 18, 2013, 03:42 PM   #3
orangello
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That is difficult to believe; surely somebody in that decision chain messed up on departmental procedure or something.

Best wishes to the linked OP and his kid. I think he did the right thing (and the legal thing).
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Old March 18, 2013, 03:42 PM   #4
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Southwest Chuck
I hope this incident gets the media attention it deserves.
I hope so too, because otherwise, this is just a story told by an anonymous poster on a gun board. It may be factual, or it may not.

It would be really good if you could find a news report on this.
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Old March 18, 2013, 03:56 PM   #5
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Articles are coming... this is from page 6 of the linked thread/site and although it's not a 1st tier news source by any means, it's a start ...

Quote:
mikeopelka wrote:
Mr. Moore,

I am a writer for TheBlaze.com and would love to tell your story to our audience across America. Can you please write to me? mopelka@theBlaze.com

Thanks,

Mike
and ...

Quote:
Mike Opelka.
http://www.theblaze.com/blog/author/mikeopelka/

This is media attention that will be positive. The link above is to some of his recent articles.

Chip
I'm looking forward to more too. I'll post 'em up as I find them and I hope others will as well.

SC
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Old March 18, 2013, 04:13 PM   #6
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I know I've seen the picture of the kid on Facebook. Maybe someone can track down a verifiable story that way?
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Old March 18, 2013, 04:32 PM   #7
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I've done a little research and I can't find any independent verification of this, but in the link itself there are people advising him to clam up and get a lawyer rather than publicize the situation. It seems like good advice, and he may have taken it, but at this point I sure don't have enough proof for me.
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Old March 18, 2013, 05:17 PM   #8
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This was in New Jersey -- it's entirely plausible.

I don't even live in New Jersey. I know of not one but TWO small-ish towns in my state where gun shops have opened within the past six months, and in BOTH towns the zoning boards are scrambling to try to craft regulations that will make it so no other gun shops can open in their towns.

I find it ironic that FBI statistics show so many more murders being committed with hammers than with rifles. The uproar in both towns is that these shops might sell the same kind of evil assault weapon that was used at Sandy Hook. Meanwhile, each of these gun shops is within maybe 200 feet of a hardware store, where they sell (OH THE HORROR!) HAMMERS! ... yet there's no rush to ensure that nobody can open another hammer store in either town.

Peepelz iz schtubit ...
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Old March 18, 2013, 06:27 PM   #9
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Noone should be shocked when it involves social services. I would think a good bit of legal advice is necessary for those who haven't had to deal with them. I have and it feels like having a barbed wire stuck up your rearend.

During my divorce I had a call on me claiming I had guns laying all over my house that my kids to get to. I have a 30 gun fireproof safe I keep my guns in. When the social worker came I could have been hateful but I let em in and showed them my safe.

Why did I do this? Because not too long before we had another fictictious accusation and when I would not allow the workers in they acted to themselves as if I was acting postal ( I wasn't) so they called for the cop and he showed up and told me I couldn't keep them out and yelled down my shirt collar in front of my kids (he apologized later).

Its basically their word against yours. They have a lot of authority and can make things look pretty bad for you if you don't watch your ps and qs. They can take your kids and you would have to get a lawyer to get them back.

Maybe the best thing to do when a social worker comes to your door is not answer it and go hide.

Last edited by Come and take it.; March 18, 2013 at 06:40 PM.
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Old March 18, 2013, 09:16 PM   #10
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Comeandtakeit,,,,,,,,,how true and sad that this world has come to that. I keep my guns under lock and key always
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Old March 19, 2013, 05:17 AM   #11
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My local LGS has a customer that had about 20 handgun permits. (In NJ you need a separate permit to purchase each handgun and a copy goes to local LE.) One day they came knockin' and wanted to see all the handguns he had permits for. (I guess to make sure he still had them all because private sales of handguns in NJ isn't much different from buying from a FFL - you still need a permit.)

Whether the police had cause to get a warrant was an unknown issue at the time and his lawyer wasn't available. So rather than make the police get a warrant and risk divulging what other guns he had, he had them wait outside while he gathered up his permits and registered handguns.

That's what gun registration is all about in NJ folks.
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Old March 19, 2013, 12:31 PM   #12
Southwest Chuck
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Here is the story that was published in The Blaze. The writer spoke to the lawyer about the incident.
http://www.theblaze.com/stories/2013...mily-services/

Last edited by Vanya; March 19, 2013 at 04:13 PM. Reason: copyright violation.
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Old March 19, 2013, 12:33 PM   #13
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Here is a link to the article that The Blaze wrote on this story:

http://www.theblaze.com/stories/2013...mily-services/

*ETA: Southwest Chuck just beat me on this.
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Old March 19, 2013, 12:38 PM   #14
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Okay the national media is now on the story finally
There are quotes and confirmation from his attorney, as well as further clarification from him.
No one from either government agency in NJ will even return calls, let alone deny the incident.
Looks like it did indeed happen folks.
The part I find the most troubling is the refusal by the dyfs worker to identify herself or show any proof of her position at all.
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Old March 19, 2013, 12:52 PM   #15
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They do make up their own rules as they go along. I'm sure the government-sponsored departments of youth and family services (whatever name they use in the various states) are even worse, but I had a run-in with a private social worker when my wife and I were adopting a few years ago.

We had to undergo a series of lengthy and invasive interviews with a licensed "adoption services" social worker as part of the home study evaluation process. I had thought "home study" was basically just a one-time, white glove inspection of the house. Oh, no! It's an entire process, involving much time, energy, and money (mine). They also probe every orifice of your personal history.

I'm a Vietnam veteran. She wanted official clearance reports from the police departments of every place I have ever lived, including every station to which I was assigned while in the Army. I served in Vietnam. She wanted a document from the Vietnamese government certifying that I had never been arrested in that country. I pointed out that the government in power when I was there no longer exists and the current government of Vietnam wasn't likely to have records of what sexual or child abuse charges the former government of South Vietnam might have had for American servicemen. She finally settled on a report from the U.S. Army archives saying they had no records of me doing anything naughty.

Then came the guns. Even before we got to her actual home visit, she freaked when she learned I own (gasp!) GUNZ! She told us that ("of course") all firearms have to be locked up. I pointed out that, since at the time we had no children living with us, my guns did NOT have to be locked up. However, they were anyway, so she didn't take on that argument.

Then she said ALL ammunition had to be locked up. I again pointed out that there is no law requiring that I keep ammunition under lock and key. Her response, after some sniffing and coughing and hemming and hawing, was (get ready, here it comes) "Well, WE require it." (She said the same thing about a carbon monoxide detector.)

So I found a company that had moved out of its old headquarters and left a bunch of furniture, begged the site manager to give me one of those 2-door black steel office cabinets, threw a cheap padlock on it, and I had an ammo cabinet. In fact, it didn't hold nearly all my ammo, but she didn't recognize 50-cal ammo cans as what they are so she saw a cabinet with some boxes of "bullets" in it, and she was satisfied.

But they do make this stuff up as they go. After all, "It's for the children."
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Old March 19, 2013, 01:03 PM   #16
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Hmmmm. Doesn't seem that these government employees are acting responsibly nor within their legal parameters. I hope his attorney pursues whatever legal recourse he has in order to expose, and bring these people to justice.
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Old March 19, 2013, 01:26 PM   #17
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Hmmm...I think I'm going to delete that picture that I posted on Facebook of my daughter shooting a pistol at the range.

Last edited by southjk; March 19, 2013 at 01:32 PM.
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Old March 19, 2013, 01:38 PM   #18
Southwest Chuck
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Quote:
"The worker refused to identify herself. Mr. Moore demanded that she giver her name. She refused and ran away."
The DYFS worker has a Big problem IMO, since his attorney can corroborate this request since he was listening in AND they had knowledge of this fact (which I think, is why she refused).
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Old March 19, 2013, 01:48 PM   #19
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The Fight Has Officially Been Brought to a NJ Gunowner's Front Door

The thing I find most troubling is threatening to take the kids. If the anti gun crowd can get one law abiding citizen to react with base emotional fear, such as I would imagine many good parents might do, then they can promote a "crazy gun nut/ government martyr" situation to boost their. I applaud Mr. Moore for reacting in a calm manner.
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Old March 19, 2013, 01:51 PM   #20
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Quote:
Quote:
"The worker refused to identify herself. Mr. Moore demanded that she giver her name. She refused and ran away."

The DYFS worker has a Big problem IMO, since his attorney can corroborate this request since he was listening in AND they had knowledge of this fact (which I think, is why she refused).
Doubtful. She works for child protective services. They get complaints all the time. Its the nature of what they have to do. Plus, this is NJ correct? I don't think there's a pro gun culture there.

Moral of the story. Don't have a FB account.
(ok in the interests of full disclosure, my dog has a FB account).
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Old March 19, 2013, 02:42 PM   #21
tynman
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WOW But nothing surprises me in NJ.. They think they ALL are above the law here.... I would have done the same thing....
No warrents no reason for being here please leave and take that fake dyfs worker with you thank you!!!

Good for him!!!
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Old March 19, 2013, 02:42 PM   #22
Come and take it.
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Yeah, social media is very dangerous for a person who believes strongly in protecting their privacy.

Also I would love some information on what can be done about a CPS visit. I had a lawyer tell me that the best thing to do is cooperate but that if I did have something to hide than to outright refuse to let them enter without a warrant.

Once again after very careful thought I decided to not answer the phone if it says Child protective services, not answer the door and play like no one is at home, or if I am asked to meet them or receive a visit to have my children secured in another location. To also play very stupid on the matter altogether as if I didn't know I was supposed to have my kids present.

What happens than of course is they will nab them at school.

Too many horror stories I have heard of people even being lied to about a harmless meeting to the CPS office with their kids only to find a police officer there to make sure everything goes in their favor and a CPS worker sending you home without your kids.

I can't understand how CPS can have the authority to just pop up at your front door and demand to enter your home without even making an appointment based on a complaint (sources are never given).

The constitution clearly says that a warrant is necessary.
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Old March 19, 2013, 02:57 PM   #23
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A reader's comment below the article:

Quote:
… in the absence of: no probable cause, no reasonable articulable suspicion that a crime has been committed, is being committed, or will be committed…” Say, doesn’t this fit right into Hale v Henkel 201 US 43 @ 89 or sumpn? I’m sure that case cuts both ways …. properly invoked. :-). Seems this gentleman may have just become Charlie Bucket, if he plays his cards right — he has all the aces, at the moment. Key word: “Jurisdiction.”
I looked it up since I was curious.
http://supreme.justia.com/cases/fede...1/43/case.html
From the Ruling....
Page 201 U. S. 74

Quote:
.. The individual may stand upon his constitutional rights as a citizen. He is entitled to carry on his private business in his own way. His power to contract is unlimited. He owes no duty to the State or to his neighbors to divulge his business, or to open his doors to an investigation, so far as it may tend to criminate him. He owes no such duty to the State, since he receives nothing therefrom beyond the protection of his life and property. His rights are such as existed by the law of the land long antecedent to the organization of the State, and can only be taken from him by due process of law, and in accordance with the Constitution. Among his rights are a refusal to incriminate himself and the immunity of himself and his property from arrest or seizure except under a warrant of the law. He owes nothing to the public so long as he does not trespass upon their rights.
and in Page 201 U. S. 89 .......

Quote:
......but illegitimate and unconstitutional practices get their first footing in that way -- namely, by silent approaches and slight deviations from legal modes of procedure. This can only be obviated by adhering to the rule that constitutional provisions for the security of person and property should be liberally construed. A close and literal construction deprives them of half their efficacy, and leads to gradual depreciation of the right, as if it consisted more in sound than in substance. It is the duty of courts to be watchful for the constitutional rights of the citizens, and against any stealthy encroachments thereon. Their motto should be obsta principiis."
I like this language!
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Old March 19, 2013, 03:07 PM   #24
Come and take it.
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I found this source as a good primer

http://protectingourchildrenfrombein...ndment-rights/

Lots of room for interpretation by a social worker and police officer.

Generally though it appears they have no right to enter your property without a warrant if there is no apparent threat of immediate danger to the child is evident. Supposedly an anonymous complaint is not sufficient evidence to believe that the child or children are in imminent peril.

On the other hand if the visit involves something administrative such as whether your house is up to some kind of safety code than you can not refuse them entry.

Seizing of your child is even more open to interpretation.
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Old March 19, 2013, 03:29 PM   #25
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Re: The Fight Has Officially Been Brought to a NJ Gunowner's Front Door

Just pointing thing out. He said he came home and they were already in his house. Meaning his wife had let them in. Whether she was forced to or not I don't know. But fact is they were let in.

Course he had the right to end the "search" and require a warrent which he did soon as he got home.


Least I got that from the op so could be mistaken
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