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Old March 20, 2013, 07:14 PM   #51
Vanya
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Most telling, from the same WaPo piece, is the following:

"...the White House has at times de-emphasized the assault weapons ban, apparently hoping that its gun control efforts would be viewed as a success even without the ban."

My guess is that they're hoping to pass something, no matter how watered down and de-fanged. My bet is that it'll come down to increased criminalization of straw purchases, and supporting grants to increase school security, those being the only parts of this that stand any chance at all of passing the House. President Obama would like to have something that he can be photographed signing.
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Old March 20, 2013, 07:28 PM   #52
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I agree with Vanya; they want to pass SOMETHING, ANYTHING, even if it's completely de-fanged and will result in nothing of substance being done.

Then, if it doesn't include the stuff they'd have liked (AWB, registration, universal checks), they'll just blame us. They like to use us gun rights people as bad guys and scapegoats; they have before, they are now, and they will in the future. They'll just keep it up.

I don't see them getting the AWB, even added as an amendment. The WH Chief of Staff's comment just reminds of the Iraqi Information Minister saying "What American tanks?" (or whatever it was)... they refuse to admit that their agenda is getting no traction out there and they never will admit that it was rejected by the people. They'll just blame the mythically powerful "gun lobby."
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Old March 20, 2013, 07:52 PM   #53
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Sen. Feinstein is already blaming the NRA. From the same NYT article I linked in an earlier post:

“The enemies on this are very powerful,” Ms. Feinstein said, referring to the National Rifle Association. “I’ve known that all my life.”
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Old March 20, 2013, 08:13 PM   #54
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The Washington Post says that the anti-gun folks will "find the votes."

Perhaps they can ask Senator Franken. He's apparently good at finding votes.
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Old March 20, 2013, 09:01 PM   #55
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President Obama would like to have something that he can be photographed signing.
Yep, but he hung his hat on AWB 2.0, both in the Presidential debates and his State of the Union speech. He's got to be fuming over this.
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Old March 20, 2013, 09:12 PM   #56
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I'm sure the President is fuming.

But unless he wants to invest some SERIOUS political capital on this one he's going to have to accept a loss. Most legislators aren't such ideologues or so beholden to the party heirarchy that they're willing to trade their seats for a yes vote on that kind of bill... which is what it would amount to (as Bill Clinton has already noted).

I find it amusing that it wasn't that long ago that all these gun grabbing politicians were throwing around the death of the NRA's political power since Obama managed to win reelection despite the lobbying efforts otherwise. And now we're some kind of hugely powerful bloc. They can't seem to make up their mind, which is fine, since they can't manage to pass their desired laws either.
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Old March 21, 2013, 12:04 AM   #57
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I'd be OK with stronger laws against straw purchasing and grants to increase school security IF I wasn't cynical enough to think that the stronger laws will do nothing but bite law abiding citizens.
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Old March 21, 2013, 01:48 AM   #58
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AWB Removed From Base Gun Control Bill in Senate

Quote:
Originally Posted by dakota.potts View Post
I'd be OK with stronger laws against straw purchasing...
What's wrong with the current laws that carry years in a federal penitentiary and many thousands of dollars of fines?

Gun trafficking is already way, wicked illegal. There isn't one single thing on the table making it more illegal any more than there is a magic pill that can make a girl less pregnant. It's a ruse. Pure and simple.

Oh, the current laws aren't enforced. Oh yeah. But we all knew that because we've been jawboning about it forever.
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Old March 21, 2013, 08:51 AM   #59
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I'd be OK with stronger laws against straw purchasing and grants to increase school security IF I wasn't cynical enough to think that the stronger laws will do nothing but bite law abiding citizens.
The problem with grants for school security is that they'll be squandered.

There was an article in one of the two daily newspapers that circulate in this neck of the woods just a couple of days ago about school security. From this article I discovered a couple of things:

1) Schools just don't "get it" (as if we needed to be reminded). The article noted a number of schools were going to spend large sums of money to install buzzers at the main entrance (a system that was in place at Sandy Hook and failed spectacularly to stop the shooter), and to put locks on all classroom doors that can be locked from the inside (there are a number of problems with this, mostly revolving around the same problem at Sandy Hook: "Do you have the key?" "No, I thought you had the key.")

2) Much of this money will go to pay for police officers to be assigned as school resource officers. And the interviews with some SROs clearly showed that they don't regard their role as "security" at all, but rather chatting up the students and trying to be a "positive influence." So if Officer Friendly is wandering around the auto shop wing when the invading horde shoots out the front door -- what purpose has he served? Don't forget: Columbine had an SRO. When the shooters hit, the SRO was outdoors, eating lunch in his cruiser, and he had to fight his way back in to get to where he should have been in the first place. By then he was far too late.

"School security" is an oxymoron, and will remain such as long as the schools are run by morons.
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Old March 21, 2013, 09:09 AM   #60
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and to put locks on all classroom doors that can be locked from the inside
Actually, I think this makes a lot of sense, and would be inexpensive to implement. Just as I believe that the most useful aviation security change after 9/11 was to armor the cockpit doors, I think a policy of locking classroom doors from the inside while classes are in session would go a long way toward "hardening" schools.

There's no worry about lost keys, because there aren't any keys. It's just a simple deadbolt lock with a thumbturn on the inside, and nothing on the exterior of the door. Also, classroom doors should either be windowless, or at most have a small window (think 6" by 16") with a blind that can be pulled down.

Sure, if a shooter wants into a particular room, he'll be able to breach the door, but it will slow him down.
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Old March 21, 2013, 09:23 AM   #61
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There's no worry about lost keys, because there aren't any keys. It's just a simple deadbolt lock with a thumbturn on the inside, and nothing on the exterior of the door.
That teacher had better never leave her ckassroom with students inside then or she will one day find herself locked out with no easy way to gain entry.
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Old March 21, 2013, 09:36 AM   #62
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Good point, although I think many schools already have a policy of not leaving students unattended.

Or, you could use conventional deadbolts on the doors, with thumbturns on the inside and keyholes on the outside.
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Old March 21, 2013, 09:48 AM   #63
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There's no worry about lost keys, because there aren't any keys. It's just a simple deadbolt lock with a thumbturn on the inside, and nothing on the exterior of the door. Also, classroom doors should either be windowless, or at most have a small window (think 6" by 16") with a blind that can be pulled down.
Just a worry about fire codes, exits, and burning to death. Every Classroom should have two doors. Locking doors are good, though you still have issues to deal with-

Students late to class?
"Surprise" guests?
The student sent to the principal's office?

The armored door that locks from the inside means LEO's clearing the room of potential hostages have to blow the door off the hinges if they can't convince a terrified kid inside they're safe enough to open the door, further traumatizing the kids. And God forbid there's a kid hiding next to the door in the blast area.

We want locks on doors, don't get me wrong. But we want at least a couple classes of people with the ability to open those doors on demand. School staff, LEO's, Fire, and First-responders. Having a teacher die in front of her Kindergarteners because they can't reach the lock and she's having a heart attack would be traumatic as well.

I don't know enough about physical security to make an informed decsion between electronic locks with a UPS, key cards until a lockdown, then keycards + Pin code, Pin Code only, or sticking with a physical key/lock combo, possibly at least somewhat proprietary like fire department elevator keys. But I do know we can't focus on the extremely rare school shooting, and ignore other school emergencies- health scares, natural disasters, fires, and so on.
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Old March 21, 2013, 10:03 AM   #64
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Just to be clear...
The following is no longer a valid comparison...
Quote:
There isn't one single thing on the table making it more illegal any more than there is a magic pill that can make a girl less pregnant.
It isn't even magic... The Morning After A Night Of Bad Decisions Pill is even sold over the counter...

Brent
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Old March 21, 2013, 10:04 AM   #65
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All good points. And this isn't anything cosmic or "out there". My wife is a high school teacher, and her school's policy is that the classroom doors are locked while class is in session. The locks do have external keyholes, and there are staff members throughout the school who hold the necessary keys. There are also phones in every room that allow them to call the front office, security, etc.

I believe that inexpensive physical security at the classroom level makes more sense on a "bang for buck" basis than paying an SRO $50k per year, dropping him into a 100,000 square foot, multi-level school building and hoping he's in the right place at the right time.
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Old March 21, 2013, 10:52 AM   #66
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This was what was needed at Sandy Hook. These are in new schools by the way. We have these in a lot of newer schools in Kentucky.

Wired security glass


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Old March 21, 2013, 10:57 AM   #67
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The topic was the AWB - tactics at a rampage aren't the main focus. Let's get back on track or we close this one.

Tactics for schools can be discussed in T and T.

Thanks

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Old March 21, 2013, 11:03 AM   #68
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Vigilance indeed

It appears to me that this scenario could be what is playing out:

Senator Reid tells Feinstein there's not enough support for her BILL to pass so it will not be presented for vote on the floor. He can then tell anyone against an AWB, limits on mags, etc. that he didn't let the bill make it to the floor for a vote.

At the same time, he tells Feinstein that she can offer her provisions as an amendment. So Feinstein pouts and whines in front of the microphones and cameras like she has really had her feelings hurt, her confidence betrayed, etc. But remember, Amendments can't be filibustered, and they only need 51 votes (in this case only 50 since Biden will hold the tiebreaker vote) so it could be argued that she might have a path of lesser resistance for her wishes to become reality.

So the earlier posts about being vigilant are spot on. Reid is a slick politician and he knows what he has to do to extend his career in the Senate. In the above scenario, he gets to play both sides.....like most politicians do.

Just my $.02
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Old March 21, 2013, 01:21 PM   #69
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Reid stupid like a fox.....AWB isn't dead by a country mile

Quote:
The problem with grants for school security is that they'll be squandered.
That is a huge 10-4..
The amount of money our school "Resource Officers" have budgets for
is big. They have several Large SUVs with DARE logos, lots of blinking lights, etc.. money IMO that should be spent on the kids.

I'm sure the 'Educators" could make some field trips to Hawaii to
investigate how they do it... wouldn't be surprised one bit.
and yes... $11 dollars left for the kids
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Old March 21, 2013, 03:54 PM   #70
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So what do you guys think the chance is of the AWB being passed as an amendment? Honestly in my state I see very few anit-gunners. They are out there but outnumbered almost 1 to 5. It seems to be the same on other sites such as popvox and even in the comment sections of news sites. Unfortunately, however, it seems that of the small group who want the ban, most are politicians. It's important to continue talking to our representatives.
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Old March 21, 2013, 03:58 PM   #71
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Personally, I don't see it having much of a chance, even as an amendment. However, this party's not over. We have to stay on top of our congresscritters until the votes are tallied. I don't want to blink and discover that it was added as a last minute amendment to a Bill to Save the Widows and Orphans, or some such thing that nobody in their right (political) mind would oppose.
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Old March 21, 2013, 04:00 PM   #72
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If it were amended wouldn't the whole thing get filibustered then?
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Old March 21, 2013, 04:04 PM   #73
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I certainly hope so, but my knowledge of the rules of Congressional procedure are inadequate to offer an opinion. (Just bein' honest here.)
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Old March 21, 2013, 07:16 PM   #74
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Personally, I don't see it having much of a chance, even as an amendment.
In the current climate, no. If the balance of power changes significantly in the 2014 midterms and/or we have another tragedy, that math could change.
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Old March 21, 2013, 07:25 PM   #75
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No question, Tom.
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