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Old March 17, 2013, 06:09 PM   #1
Jeff2131
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selling reloaded ammo

Quick question....i reload .223 rem and .308 win. I reload for myself. I was at the range the other weekend and a guy asked me if i would sell him some of my .308 reloads. Is it illegal for me to sell him some of the ammo i reloaded? He also asked me if i would sell him 500round of my .223 reloads. I have a bit of both stocked up and can definetly spare the rounds but i also dont want to be doing anything illegal. Can anyone chime in and provide any info on the legalities of selling reloaded ammo in the state of PA?
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Old March 17, 2013, 06:23 PM   #2
BigD_in_FL
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Without the proper Federal FFL and ITAR registration, among a host of other things, you would be committing a Federal Felony good for ten years in Federal prison, $250,000 fine, permanent loss of all gun rights and a host of other issues you really do not want to get involved with
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Old March 17, 2013, 06:50 PM   #3
JRH6856
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From a similar thread on THR a couple of years ago:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sam1911
I'll post a summation of the possible legal issues, original posted by TexasRifleman:


: Is a person who reloads ammunition required to be licensed as a manufacturer?
Yes, if the person engages in the business of selling or distributing reloads for the purpose of livelihood and profit. No, if the person reloads only for personal use.
Ahh, but there's the trick question. It doesn't say you can't sell ammo, it says you can't "engage in the business of selling or distributing reloads for the purpose of livelihood and profit". That piece you posted is from an FAQ, not the actual law.

There is some ambiguity in the ATF regs quoted as it doesn't address the guy who sells some to a buddy every now in then.
Those terms, "engaged in business" and "purpose of livelihood and profit" are specifically defined in Federal Law. From the wording of Federal Law it would appear to me that selling reloads to a friend who doesn't want to mess with it is clearly "personal use", not "engaged in the business" but go read the statute yourself. It seems pretty clear to me.

18 USC 44

(21) The term "engaged in the business" means—

(B) as applied to a manufacturer of ammunition, a person who devotes time, attention, and labor to manufac- turing ammunition as a [b]regular course of trade or business]/b] with the principal objective of livelihood and profit through the sale or distribution of the ammunition manufactured;
Quote:
(22) The term "with the principal objective of livelihood and profit" means that the intent underlying the sale or disposition of firearms is pre- dominantly one of obtaining livelihood and pecuniary gain, as opposed to other intents, such as improving or liq- uidating a personal firearms collection:
http://www.atf.gov/publications/down...f-p-5300-4.pdf

Certainly at some point it crosses that line, but there seems to be plenty of room for occasional stuff. Not a lawyer, just an English Speaker.

Take it for what it's worth.
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Old March 17, 2013, 07:31 PM   #4
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See, now thats where the fine line lies i guess....i have no "intent" on reloading ammo to sell to this guy. I shoot alot, as i really enjoy it and really enjoy reloading. So what i am considering selling him is ammo that was reloaded with the intent of personal use. If i calculate what the cost of reloading was and charge him that cost, then there is no "profit" being made...correct? I am not planning on selling to him all the time and its certainly not a business or side job. Idk, i wanna help the the guy out because i know how tough it is to get .223 right now but i also dont want to get myself in trouble. Maybe ill just play it safe and keep my reloads for myself. Lol, im already stressing over what could potentially happen.
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Old March 17, 2013, 07:33 PM   #5
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^The above goobledeegoop would appear to state that you're ok if it's not a business, a way you are making a living or you DO NOT MAKE A PROFIT.

Interesting.

The flip side is the purchaser (and their lawyer) would come looking for you if there was any problem (think KB). Are you willing to accept possible legal responsibility? I wouldn't, but that's me.
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Old March 17, 2013, 07:43 PM   #6
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How would trading reloaded ammo be considered? I traded a guy 200 factory FNM 7.62X51 rounds for 400 rounds of his 55 grain 223 reloads. One of the few people I would trust with reloads, he is a gunsmith, an exceptional shot and I have known him a long time. Just wondering If I trade say some of my 7.62 reloads for somebody else's 44 mag reloads
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Old March 17, 2013, 07:49 PM   #7
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Guns & reloads are a mystery to some folks!

It sounds like you know the buyer or at least his skill level pretty well. But if someone shot some of your ammo & then screwed up their gun somehow, sure as hell they'd blame it on you & those damn reloads!!!

That's the chance you take too.
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Old March 17, 2013, 08:21 PM   #8
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Turn the question around

"What if" questions sometimes help to reveal the borders of a gray area:

What if someone with a loading setup hired you to load rounds (to his specifications) for his own use? Where would civil liability be? Where would licensing be required? You are not selling your reloads, you are a hired hand.

Does this question clear anything up or make it easier see the limits of legality? Or just show a new twist that might illuminate the issues?

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Old March 17, 2013, 09:17 PM   #9
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I am cleared up!!!! Lol....the post by "bigdinFL" was enough to make me txt the guy and say...hey, sorry buddy, i am not prepared to face the possible legal/federal ramifications of selling you my reloaded ammo. Lol....case closed
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Old March 17, 2013, 09:32 PM   #10
Mike Irwin
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Except that bigdinFL is wrong.

The operative phrase is "Yes, if the person engages in the business of selling or distributing reloads for the purpose of livelihood and profit."

Note that it requires for the purpose of livelihood AND profit.

Selling the incidental box of reloads is exactly the same as selling the occasional gun out of your collection.

If you sell a gun or two a year, it's very difficult to consider that to be dealing in firearms, just as selling a couple of boxes of reloads doesn't even come close to meeting the "livelihood and profit" test.


There have been numerous similar threads here at TFL in the past, as well.
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Old March 17, 2013, 09:34 PM   #11
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Even though the OP's question has been answered, I'd like to clarify one small issue:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sam1911
I'll post a summation of the possible legal issues, original posted by TexasRifleman:


: Is a person who reloads ammunition required to be licensed as a manufacturer?
Yes, if the person engages in the business of selling or distributing reloads for the purpose of livelihood and profit. No, if the person reloads only for personal use.
Ahh, but there's the trick question. It doesn't say you can't sell ammo, it says you can't "engage in the business of selling or distributing reloads for the purpose of livelihood and profit". That piece you posted is from an FAQ, not the actual law.

There is some ambiguity in the ATF regs quoted as it doesn't address the guy who sells some to a buddy every now in then.
Those terms, "engaged in business" and "purpose of livelihood and profit" are specifically defined in Federal Law. From the wording of Federal Law it would appear to me that selling reloads to a friend who doesn't want to mess with it is clearly "personal use", not "engaged in the business" but go read the statute yourself. It seems pretty clear to me.

18 USC 44

(21) The term "engaged in the business" means—

(B) as applied to a manufacturer of ammunition, a person who devotes time, attention, and labor to manufac- turing ammunition as a [b]regular course of trade or business]/b] with the principal objective of livelihood and profit through the sale or distribution of the ammunition manufactured;
Quote:
(22) The term "with the principal objective of livelihood and profit" means that the intent underlying the sale or disposition of firearms is pre- dominantly one of obtaining livelihood and pecuniary gain, as opposed to other intents, such as improving or liq- uidating a personal firearms collection:
http://www.atf.gov/publications/down...f-p-5300-4.pdf

Certainly at some point it crosses that line, but there seems to be plenty of room for occasional stuff. Not a lawyer, just an English Speaker.

Take it for what it's worth.
Source: http://www.thehighroad.org/archive/i.../t-516773.html
Quote:
serf 'rett ^The above goobledeegoop would appear to state that you're ok if it's not a business, a way you are making a living or you DO NOT MAKE A PROFIT.
The test is not "whether the reloader makes a profit." The test is whether the reloader is "engaged in the business," which includes looking at whether the reloader "had the principal objective of livelihood and profit."

IOW, "I didn't make any money" isn't a good defense.
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Old March 17, 2013, 10:31 PM   #12
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Quote:
Note that it requires for the purpose of livelihood AND profit.
And if he is selling his reloads at component pricing that he bought before the panic started, he might fall under that. BUT, since he will now have to replace said components at higher prices, if he wants to reload, even for himself, he will need to charge a higher price than what his materials cost him - this MIGHT be construed as "making a profit". Yes it is gray, chances are slim, but is it really worth it? And if his reloads cause an injury, his homeowner's won't cover squat and he will lose everything and then some. If he tries to prevent that by buying the necessary insurance, ATF will surmise he did so because he is in the business".- again why risk it for a few bucks?

Your call OP..........personally, it is not worth the risk, IMO - YMMV
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Old March 17, 2013, 10:47 PM   #13
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Re: selling reloaded ammo

I have an ffl06 which allows me to manufacture and sell ammunition atf requires u do have it I you plan on selling any ammunition you build.

But typically if your selling to an individual and he doesn't blow his gun or his hand off you should be fine because I dont see the individual being an undercover atf agent or the individual running to his local atf field office telling them you just sold hom ammunition illegally.

That being said if he hurts himself in any way using your ammunition he is going to blame it on you and sue you.

I have the ffl06 because I sell to gun shops here in town and they resale it so im required to have it.

They take responsibility when they resale it so they will be sued then im sure they will inturn sue me but I have an llc so the llc will be sued not me as an individual.
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Old March 17, 2013, 10:58 PM   #14
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Normally, profit will not be measured on a piece by piece basis, but the overall business operation, and then only if the operation is intended to be profitable and produce a livelihood. Selling items produced for personal used in pursuit of a hobby usually does not produce a profit because the costs of the hobby usually far exceed the income from the sales.

IMO, the biggest risk is the liability issue. Especially with strangers. I have shared reloads (at cost) with friends and relatives whom I know and trust (this generally means I know spouses and children as well) and who fully understand the risks involved, but not with strangers or casual acquaintances.
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Old March 17, 2013, 11:39 PM   #15
buck460XVR
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This question comes up often here and on other gun forums. It always comes down to the same thing. Yes, one can occasionally sell personal reloads and even make a little bit for their time without a license. No different than selling left over ammo at a garage or estate sale. Problem lies with the liability issue if something happens. But, that can happen even if it's a good friend that you gave the reloads to......for free......or that you allowed him to shoot outta your gun. Like everything in life, you roll the dice you take your chances.

Bottom line, is it legal? Yes. Should you do it? No.
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Old March 17, 2013, 11:49 PM   #16
Jim Watson
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Sell a bystander a few rounds? OK, as long as they work. But remember we have a special name for the guy whose gun your ammo just demolished... plaintiff.

Take an order for 500 rounds in a scarcity market with trebled prices?
Not on your tintype.
That sounds entirely too much like doing business.
Maybe it isn't.
Do you want to pay the lawyer to explain it to the judge?
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Old March 18, 2013, 04:57 AM   #17
rebs
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I do not know about the law regarding selling reloaded ammo. I would be happy just finding some 223 brass to reload for myself to shoot.
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Old March 18, 2013, 07:04 AM   #18
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I supply several friends at cost because they love my superior ammo (to factory stuff), but when you do it, you pick up a certain amount of liability. "Personal use" does go beyond you as a shooter. The law is meant to pertain to reloading as a part time business, no matter how informal. I would like to think that the Feds have bigger fish to fry than you selling your brother some custom deer loads, but when they shot up a family at Ruby Ridge for cutting a shotgun off 1/4" too short, or killed 87 men, women, and children at Waco for "suspicion" of possession of M16's, its hard to be comfortable about it with Eric Holder at the helm, making Janet Reno look like a humanitarian, I'd be careful about it.
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Old March 18, 2013, 07:41 AM   #19
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"nd if he is selling his reloads at component pricing that he bought before the panic started, he might fall under that."

While neither BATF or IRS has ever assigned a monetary value to livelihood, I think a good attorney could pretty much crush someone being charged with this on a number of fronts, including poverty-level income as defined by Health and Human Services.

Poverty level for one person in the lower 48 is an annual income of $11,170.

If we were to even take half that and say that that figure constitutes a "livelihood income," then it would be $5,585.

That's a damned ton of ammo, no matter how much you're charging per box, and I'm not sure that anyone could actually live on that for a year.

If we cut THAT in half, $2,792.5, is it really realistic to say that any of us would ever reach that kind of level of sales? At, say, $25 a box for pistol ammo like .38 Special, that would be 111 boxes.

But there's also the profit equation. Again, profit isn't defined in monetary terms. Would profit include one's time in manufacturing the reloads, or would it be found to be strictly monetary?

Then there's the issue of whether it could be construed to be reasonable profit. Would a penny a box be a reasonable profit, or a dollar? Remember that profit would have to count towards livelihood, so the less profit you make per box the less likely you are to meet a livelihood standard.

Given the vagueness of the language (yes, that can certainly work both ways) the burden of proof would be on the government to make the case that sales of ammo were being done for business and profit, and I simply can't see that standard being met for a few boxes here and a few boxes there over the course of a year.
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Old March 18, 2013, 10:00 AM   #20
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Go to the source

I am a Type 01 FFL holder and have been for 35 years. I have found, much to my surprise, that if I call BATF, they are helpful and straight forward. Their number can be found on the internet. They don't ask for any identifying information, so you can remain anonymous and still get your questions answered from THE authoritative source.

That said, I believe a one time sale, or trade, is not going to get you crosswise with the authorities. You are not doing it as a livelihood, regardless of whether you make a profit or not.

The major consideration here would be liability if one of your loads causes a problem. You may have loaded everything according to the book with a margin of safety, but the purchaser may have, for example, excessive headspace that causes a cartridge rupture and injury. Odds are against it, admittedly, but it is a factor you need to consider.

For your peace of mind, however, I would recommend calling BATF and making a note of who you spoke to and the date and time.
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Old March 18, 2013, 10:07 AM   #21
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A couple of other tests of "business" is advertising and labeling. If you put cute labels on your ammo like "Ammo Andy's Better Bullets" and advertise them for sale on the internet, it would be hard to argue you are not in the business of selling ammo.
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Old March 18, 2013, 10:16 AM   #22
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.223 brass

Rebs,

.223/5.56 brass is hard to find right now! Widener's had once fired military brass last week but sold out quickly. I might recommend getting on their emailing list. Their price was $129/1000. That's a little high historically, but probably not bad for the current situation. Some other sites worth checking are:

www.diamondkbrass.com/.233-5.56-Brass/ (They list it as in stock right now)
www.once-fired-brass.com (They list it as in stock right now)
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Old March 18, 2013, 12:12 PM   #23
Jeff2131
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Wow....you guys are crazy paying $100-130 for .223 brass. I buy it for $60/1000 and most times they are bags of 500 for $30. Ive got an elderly gentleman at the range who does nothing but collect, clean, and bag them up all day long. I believe he told me his daughter ships him brass by way of ups. She is in the army. Hes there just about every weekend with a bag of brass waiting for me! Maybe ive got the lucky hook up but even still...i couldnt see paying that much for once fired brass.
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Old March 18, 2013, 01:15 PM   #24
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Quote:
Wow....you guys are crazy paying $100-130 for .223 brass. I buy it for $60/1000 and most times they are bags of 500 for $30. Ive got an elderly gentleman at the range who does nothing but collect, clean, and bag them up all day long. I believe he told me his daughter ships him brass by way of ups. She is in the army. Hes there just about every weekend with a bag of brass waiting for me! Maybe ive got the lucky hook up but even still...i couldnt see paying that much for once fired brass.

Sounds like to me you should forget about selling your reloads and sell bulk brass. Less liability, more profit and perfectly legal.
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Old March 18, 2013, 01:33 PM   #25
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Hmmm...interesting reading. I have a neighbor that just asked me to reload some for them....gonna really have to think this request over now...geez
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