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Old March 24, 2013, 07:09 PM   #26
Jerry45
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If after you shoot it with the different scope it's still shooting badly first thing I'd do get some Bore Tech Eliminator and make sure it isn't copper fouled. I used to use Hoppes on my rifles for years and years. On the 06 I would run a couple of wet patches then a couple of clean then another wet. It would come out clean. Then a couple dry and they wold come out clean. When I couldn't get it shooting like I thought it should I got some Bore Tech Eliminator an though I'd never get all the copper out. Made a believer out of me.

The fact that it was shooting well when you put it away and badly soon as you shot it again is strange. Is just the action bedded or is it full length bedded? If just the action did you check to see if the barrel was/is coming in contact with the stock? I find it odd that it was glass bedded and the magazine box managed to shift. I find it odd that the screws would loosen if the smith torqued them correctly.
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Old March 25, 2013, 02:02 PM   #27
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Re-read it...
The action is NOT bedded.
The barrel IS bedded- so of course it's making contact with the stock.
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Old March 25, 2013, 03:28 PM   #28
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I am not sure what you mean by the action not being bedded. The barrel is free floated and does not touch the stock. The receiver is bedded for about 3 inches.

A piece of paper will move unhindered from the front of the stock to a point about
3 inches in front of the receiver block.

The entire action is not packed in glass nor is it pillar bedded. For sure the barrel is not bedded except where the forward grip screw is located.

tobnpr: My apologies. I was not real clear in my first post. The action IS bedded, the barrel is floated. Sorry for the confusion.

What I said: The rifle has a Douglas barrel that was fitted about 3 years ago. The stock is original but the new barrel was glass bedded.


What I SHOULD have said: The rifle has a Douglas barrel that was fitted about 3 years ago. The stock is original but the new barrel was floated and the action was bedded.
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Old March 25, 2013, 05:58 PM   #29
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The barrel not touching is good thing. Now you need to check it with the forearm sitting on your rest or by-pod (whatever you normally use) to make sure the stock doesn't bend/twist whatever and touch/contact the barrel. Check it the same way with the paper. I use a dollar bill it's a little thicker than regular paper.

I presume you haven't gotten to shot it yet with the new scope?

I don't understand why the smith only partially(?) bedded the action. I've never heard of that. Not saying its not right, just that most of the time the action is fully bedded. Some people even go past the action and a couple inches up the barrel or full length bed the action and barrel. I'd like to know the reasoning behind only partly bedding the action. Perhaps he just filled in some low spots in the stock?

If the rifle was shooting well that way there is no reason it shouldn't still be shooting well. I could see a shift in POA to POI after laying up for year if you lived in a dame area (I'd hardly call Arizona damp) but not erratic POI unless something is loose, touching or the barrel is cooper fouled or burned out. Usually copper fouling or a burned out barrel give deteriorating accuracy over time not just goes from good to bad. Good to bad shrouds more like something loose (could be the internals of the scope but being a NitghtForce I tend to doubt it) or when the smith put the box back in it isn't really in place and is binding the action or the action just isn't seated properly.
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Old March 26, 2013, 11:50 AM   #30
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So, here is where it stands today.

I went back to the range with a bore sighted Weaver K10 that is known to be good.

Had two loads. Both loads well below maximum. 52 gr. Speer match and either 38 or 38.4 gr. H380.

No good. Groups at least 4 inches at 25 yards. Put the NF scope back on and the results were essentially the same as last week.

Took the gun back to the gunsmith and asked him to go through the rifle to see if we can figure out what is wrong. The smith does notice some "frosting" at the throat that is not abnormal for 900 or so rounds.

I have 100 new brass that I am going to load the same as what I have been using and take another 22-250 to the range on Friday. I have an older Ruger M77V that has had less than 250 rounds fired through it since new. I am not sure what that will tell me but right now I am really puzzled. I just can't imagine what is going on with the gun.

I scrubbed the bore and the patches come out clean. There is no visible damage to the crown and the rifling looks good.

This is a real puzzle for me.

The pattern actually looks like a 22-250 shotgun. It is THAT bad.
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Old March 26, 2013, 12:47 PM   #31
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Try a box of factroy loads. You may have unintentionally messed up something with your handloads and do not realise it.
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Old March 26, 2013, 01:46 PM   #32
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Point taken. I am taking another rifle to the range Friday and will shoot that same lot through a different rifle.

That is a load I have been shooting for a lot of years. It is hard to imagine the load would be so out of whack as to cause this problem.

I have been shooting a lot of years and have not seen this problem before.

I keep a logbook of the rounds fired and these two loads work well.

I have 100 new brass and am going to load those up tomorrow.
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Old March 26, 2013, 04:16 PM   #33
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I find it hard to believe (I've been wrong before) that loading would cause a 4" spread at 25 yards. There would have to be a vast difference in bullet weighs or charge rates to make that much difference at that short yardage. I still believe something is tweaked or lose. If it were me I'd pull it out of the stock, check everything, then make sure it went back together correctly before I went back to the range.

Make sure the recoil lug is tight up against the rear of the lug channel and that there is clearance between the trigger guard/action screws and sides of the holes in the stock.
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Old March 26, 2013, 07:39 PM   #34
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Trying another load is really reaching for straws, but it never hurts to look at simple things first. Could be a bad lot of powder, accidently loading the wrong powder, your scales could be out of whack. They make bullets in .222, .223, and .224, perhaps the manufacturer mislabeled the box of bullets.

I cannot imagine a bedding problem causing this much error. Loose scope mounting seems more logical,but you've already checked that.
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Old March 26, 2013, 07:58 PM   #35
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The reloads I shot were partial boxes of rounds I have shot with good results.

I had two different scopes and each one was checked for loose screws.

The only thing that comes to mind is a cracked stock and I don't see any evidence of that or some sort of failure in the action. I just can't imagine what that could be as I have never loaded a 22-250 hot.

Perhaps the bedding is separating from the stock??

I have a lot of questions and not many answers.

I have check weights for my scale and only keep the powder I am loading on the bench.

I don't have any problem loading the rounds or extracting the empties and the bolt handle is not hard to turn.

I really expect to find a simple answer, although that answer has eluded me so far.
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Old March 26, 2013, 08:11 PM   #36
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I really believe the simple answer is action to stock problem. Everything else seems to be a constant. First thing the smith found was the ammo box was shifted. That is what started the problem... probably loose screw(s) and when he tightened things back up some isn't where it should be. Or as you say perhaps a crack in the stock. Take the action out and have a look inside. It isn't that hard and what do you have to lose, it's shooting like crap, you can't make it shoot much worse. I've had my rifles in and out of stocks so many times I can do it blindfolded. Two screws and it slips right out. Only hard part is "sometimes" the ammo box is a pain to get lined up but it's not that hard. The U cut in the box goes up and forward.
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Old March 26, 2013, 08:36 PM   #37
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I hear what you are saying. I have the gun at the gunsmith who did the barrel install and will get his input before I do anything.

I still have some of the reloads that are shooting so crappy and will try them in my other 22-250 and see if they shoot or not.

I normally shoot SMK in those guns but I loaded up some Speer Match bullets and those bullets have shot pretty well. Something happened to the gun while it was in the safe for 11 months when I did not shoot it. I just don't know what.

I don't think that is the real issue. I think it is something else
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Old April 5, 2013, 01:04 PM   #38
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Here is the latest on the errant 700BDL.

I loaded up 100 new brass, 52 gr. SMK, Winchester large rifle primers and 38 gr H380.

Went to the range this morning with a Ruger M77V and a Weaver T16.

I took along the loads that are not shooting well in the M700.

The first shot out of the barrel at 300 yards rang the gong. This in a rifle that has not been shot in 3 years.

Shot those reloads as well as the new loads at 100 yards and the rifle grouped pretty well. I have shot better but not with the T16 with a dot.

Anyway, the loads and the reloads are obviously NOT the problem.

Went to the smith and asked them what was going on with my M700 and they tell me they cannot find a thing wrong with it. I can't help but believe it is the barrel but I find it really hard to believe the barrel is shot out at 926 rounds and all of them loaded down to around 3400 fps. 38 gr. H380 is NOT a hot load.

So. . .what is wrong? It would REALLY irritate me to rebarrel the rifle and see the same thing occur. That rifle has never been a problem child and I am really having a hard time coming to grips with what is going on.

The smith had the action out of the stock and checked the bedding and they see nothing wrong.

They have another smith who is going to look at it and I left them a box of 50 new loads in new brass to see if they can figure out what is going on.

If it was YOUR gun, what would you suggest? I don't want to give up on it. I just don't really know where to look next.

Thanks for your input.
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Old April 5, 2013, 02:31 PM   #39
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I was going to suggest exactly what you did, leave known good ammo and let the smith shoot and see what he comes up with.

You say it was shooting well when you put it up and wasn't (a year later) the very next time you used it. Barrels don't go bad sitting in a safe. If it had rusted sure. But just sitting in a controlled environment? I don't buy the barrel is bad.

Let me tell you how finicky rifles can be. The smallest change can make them do strange things. Had the 06 at the range today. First cold bore shot, previously fouled barrel 1/2" high 1/2" left. Let cool for 20 minutes. Temp was mid 50's. Second shot 1/2" high 1/2" right. So far so good it's/I'm shooting MOA. Adjusted scope put third shot dead center. Back in the rack to cool again. Shot a 1/8" group with the 308. OK I'm doing my part. Next 06 cold shot dead center. I wanted to see where it would shoot with the brake on. After it cooled I took the thread protector off and screwed the brake on. 1/4" high 3/4" right follow up shot 5/16 high 1 1/4 right. Grouped moved as I knew it would and shot under MOA. Now here is where it gets freaky. Let it cool. I have not touched the scope so when removing the brake and reinstalling the thread protester one would expect the riffle to once again shoot dead center. Right? Nope! 7/16" low 3/4" left. Second shot same place. Third shot dead center. Let rifle cool. First shot cut the left corner off the diamond second dead center. Let cool. Last three shots of the day dead center. The thread protector and brake screw on and off by hand no tools used so it's not like I tweaked the action in the stock but first two shots after reinstalling the thread protector went low left. Go figure! Rifles do strange crap.
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Old April 5, 2013, 05:46 PM   #40
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The gunsmith called this afternoon and said they thought they had found the problem.

I went out to pick the rifle up and they showed me that they hogged out a little more of the barrel channel and brought the relieved area back to where the barrel swells before it goes into the action.
The stock is now relieved all the way to a point about two inches in front of the action.

They showed me the target they shot at 100 yards with my loads and they are the way I remember them.

I will put the NightForce back on tomorrow and bore sight. It should be real close as the scope did not come out of the rings and we will see how it does next Friday.

Hope the problem is history. We will see. . .
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Old April 5, 2013, 09:03 PM   #41
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That sounds more like what I suspected. I'd feel better if it were free-floated all the way back to the action. However some people don't do that and get good results. Let us know how it shoots for you.
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Old April 10, 2013, 08:30 PM   #42
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So what's up with your rifle. Went to the range today and had a blast. Everything, including me shot great. Except with my buddies new Mossberg bolt action 30-06. Trigger was awful. Shot one, hard pull, dead center and pulled one, long gritty not so hard pull 1" left. Didn't even feel that I had palled it. But I did. Rifle has potential but needs trigger work.
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Old April 11, 2013, 07:36 AM   #43
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Jerry,

Tomorrow ( Friday ) is range day. I put the NF back on the rifle and bore sighted it.

I have the loads and reloads all ready to go. With any look, it will all be good.
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Old April 11, 2013, 12:38 PM   #44
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Cool! Hope it punches one tiny hole for you. Let us know.
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Old April 11, 2013, 12:55 PM   #45
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Quote:
Cool! Hope it punches one tiny hole for you.
I can ALWAYS get it to punch one tiny hole It is the rest of the string that gives me fits. Is it cheating to put one on the paper and 4 in the berm?

I will let you know.
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Old April 12, 2013, 12:06 PM   #46
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Just got back from the range. The gun is not right. The gunsmith last week told me he had some sighting rounds to get his scope zeroed and then he shot some targets. He was shooting 5 shots and he had 3 on the paper. They were ok but nothing to write home about. He showed me one group and said he must have pulled two shots.

I put a target out at 50 yards and got the scope dialed in a little high and when I had three shots pretty close together and where I wanted them, I put up some Shoot-N-C targets at 100 yards and put a 6 inch target in the middle of the little ones. Made some pretty drastic changes on the scope settings and then started shooting the small 3 inch targets.

Finally got to print on the small target and selected a clean target to try for groups.

First shot was high and to the left and off the target. Shot six more and thought I had 3 doubles in the center. Not so. Three shots and one way right and off the target and one way right and low off the target.

I took the rifle back to the gunsmith and told them to re-barrel with a Shilen or Krieger. Don't want another Douglas barrel.

The only good thing about today was a guy trying to dial in a Winchester 9422 with a scope and having no luck at all. Looks like the dovetail is not parallel to the bore. At least the scope is not parallel to the bore.

I told him I had always wanted one and he asked if I was interested in the one he had. It is a 1973 and is like new except for some freckling on the barrel. He said he had not had it long and had not yet bonded with the gun.

It is straight walnut and no checkering so I bought it from him and put the factory sight back on it. I may have over paid a little but I am happy with the rifle.

The action is MUCH smoother than my Marlin 39A and the rifling in the barrel is sweet and no signs of pitting. No dings in the stock and just a bit of blue worn off at the muzzle.

This really was an impulse buy but I am strangely mellow now. Will try it out next week with the irons.
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Old April 12, 2013, 01:57 PM   #47
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I'm sorry to hear that. And this is going to sound harsh... BUT! I don't believe I'd be bring my rifle back to that gun smith(?). There are too many good smiths, several right here on this board, to be dealing with someone that can't tell me what's wrong with my rifle.

The smith that bullet my 308 told me what bullet and powder to use and gave me a start gr. on the powder. He was within 1/2 a gr. of the rifle shooting the best it can. I found a less expensive bullet that shoot just as well with 1 1/2 gr. more of the same powder. But the point being not only did he know how to put a rifle together to make it shoot he knew what components it took to make it shoot.

You gave the guy 50 rounds he shot whatever it was he shot, only got three on paper and though that was good enough to give you your rifle back? That's pathetic.

I know smiths don't like talking bad about other smiths but I'd really love to hear their opinion on this.

Again sorry to hear he can't make it right.
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Old April 12, 2013, 04:39 PM   #48
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When I said he had three on paper, I did not make it clear that he was using a sighting in target that has the diamond in the middle and the 4 diamonds on the corners. He had 3 groups on that paper. He had one five shot group that was actually pretty good considering they pulled an old scope from somewhere and threw it on the rifle.

What he ALSO said, was there were a couple of flyers he thought he had pulled.

I don't think they were pulled at all. What makes me think that is what I shot today.

That is what has me thinking bad barrel.

I was shooting Shoot-N-C targets today. I had the little 3 inch targets at the corners and a 6 inch target in the middle.

I had all of this on a target frame with a 36X36 inch sheet of white paper behind it so I could see where every shot went.

Once I got the rifle on the Shoot-N-C 6 inch target and zeroed, I moved to the 3 inch targets.

I was surprised that my first 3 shots were not on the smaller target.

I went back to the big target in the center and made more correction on the scope to get closer to the center and then moved back to the little targets.

The first shot on the smaller target was high left and off the target and on the paper. The next three shots were in the center. The next two shots were right and centered but off the target and the last shot was right and low off the target.

I grabbed another box of bullets that has proved very good over the years and all in new brass and these loads shot well last week in a Ruger M77V.


I shot the upper right hand Shoot-N-C and could not hit the target for 3 shots.

I gave it up and took the rifle back for work.
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Old April 12, 2013, 05:46 PM   #49
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I still don't buy the barrel went bad sitting in the safe. I've been wrong before and we'll see what happens with the new barrel. I hope I'm wrong.
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Old April 15, 2013, 09:59 AM   #50
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If it were "my gun"...

Assuming you have confidence in your smith, and that the borescope of the barrel showed no issues...I doubt it's a hardware problem.

You mentioned the receiver is bedded.

Does it have pillars installed? Without pillars, action screw torque is even more of a variable. While the action won't compress against the epoxy, the bottom metal sure will against the wood stock as the screws are torqued.

I would re-do the receiver bedding, and install pillars. Not a tough thing to do, a few hours work or so- and absent an issue with the barreled action, that's the only variable left. Grind out 1/4" or so, and have another go at it.

I'm a proponent of not using screws to hold the action in place. Electrical tape, wrapped tightly and evenly the length of the action avoids placing stress points on the action.
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