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Old March 17, 2013, 12:05 PM   #26
BigD_in_FL
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I stopped in a south/eastern Tennessee gun store today and was completely disgusted with what I saw on their price gouging and lack of disregard for their customers. This was a well stocked small town store that seemed to have plenty of items that we all have been looking for. It appeared that their gouging was centered around just the popular pistol calibers and the AR platforms. I will never buy a thing from this store if this is how they do business. A few examples of the gouging below.
Quote:
It was very evident that they were taking full advantage of the crazynes going on. Large rifle primers were $32/1000. Medium and large caliber rifle powders were $29/1lb. Loaded factory rifle ammo was in line also.

I hope the locals remember how they were cheated when prices and availability start to improve.
Question - Were the customers WILLINGLY paying their asking prices? There is NO such thing as gouging, please learn more about free market economics. They are not taking advantage - they are responding to the market forces of supply and demand, just like your local gas station does.

Do you KNOW what their costs were to be able to get inventory on those products at a time when most cannot get any? Do you KNOW what their new replacement costs will be for those items? If their replacement costs have gone up, then they need to raise their prices now in order to be able to buy replacement inventory. A store that does not raises according to the current supply/demand scenario will soon be out of business - a smart business man raises his prices to what the market will bear.

Try watching this video about so-called "gouging":
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h9QEkw6_O6w

According to your rant, he should sell so low that he gets cleaned out only to see his inventory being sold on gunbroker for the huge price increases by someone else? Sorry, you sound like someone who does not own a business or understand this unique situation we find ourselves in
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Old March 17, 2013, 12:10 PM   #27
huntinaz
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Are they still teaching economics in high school, or are students just not understanding the material?

I struggled with some principles of economics, but supply and demand is about as simple as it gets.
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Old March 17, 2013, 01:36 PM   #28
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^^^ You don't really understand until you run a business. Then it all becomes very clear.

The entrepraneurial readers get it, and the salarymen do not.


Willie


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Old March 17, 2013, 01:59 PM   #29
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This makes me really glad I found primers for $19 a 1000 from Natchez, $26 after Hazmat. I guess I should've bought more than 6K.

I do think that things will rebalance eventually at near pre-panic prices, but the lack of .22 LR is very frustrating.
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Old March 17, 2013, 02:05 PM   #30
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Hate to say this but when walmart has upped there federal 9mm only a buck since the madness happened and the lgs doubles the price it IS gouging IMO.
Wally World doesn't rely on guns and ammo to keep the doors open. They make their money selling socks and toilet paper (and the mundane items like them) for the most part.

The funny thing is none of the people that complain have a clue as to what the gun shops are paying for items on their shelves. One of my LGS was buying a lot of their stock from customers just to have something on the shelves. That included guns and ammo. And, they were paying more for those items than what they were paying their distributors.
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Old March 17, 2013, 03:19 PM   #31
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The funny thing is none of the people that complain have a clue as to what the gun shops are paying for items on their shelves.
Not true! Now, drop the "none", and there may be some truth to what you say. I believe that many of us who spend time at gun shops (and are friends with the owners) know approximately what is being paid for ammo. Sure, prices have gone up, but from what I've seen, some (many?) local gun shops are making more profit per box than before all of this nonsense started. I could be wrong.
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Old March 17, 2013, 03:24 PM   #32
BigD_in_FL
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Maybe there should be a "sticky"about gouging and econ 101, including the video I linked to (among others) so those who currently find themselves underfunded for the current pricing in the market will get an understanding before they come on here ranting about something that, it seems, they really do not understand.

Sorry if I hurt a feeling or two, but this constant whining and complaining about "gouging" and "rip offs" have NO place on this site, IMO - they rank right up there with the personal slurs against someone - an uneducated attack that borders on slander and libel towards a business doing their best to remain open and provide the goods and services that their customers demand and want in a time of scarcity.

Here is the simplest cure to those who want to rant about gouging and getting ripped off:

If you do not like their prices, don't buy the products from them.

But do not complain when your fellow shooter's find their prices agreeable because you don't have the cash on hand. I see way too many of these same folks coming on here bragging about how they scored selling something they bought cheap and was able to sell for the same prices they are now complaining about.

If you REALLY want to whine about high prices, try looking at what is happening to your medical insurance costs due to ObamaCare and the new payroll taxes.............

Last edited by BigD_in_FL; March 17, 2013 at 03:38 PM. Reason: Punctuation
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Old March 17, 2013, 04:13 PM   #33
oldgunsmith
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I never understood the logic behind waiting for a panic to start worrying about how much ammo you have. It makes me wonder how many will no longer be concerned about having enough when prices get back closer to "normal".
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Old March 17, 2013, 05:53 PM   #34
BigD_in_FL
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^^^^ This is like waiting to get prepared for the hurricane AFTER it hits and then whining about shortages and high prices
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Old March 17, 2013, 06:38 PM   #35
Glenn E. Meyer
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Funny thing, I see new Glock mags on line for 29 and the gun show a couple of weeks ago had them for 69. They had a tub full - wonder why?
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Old March 17, 2013, 06:38 PM   #36
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Not true! Now, drop the "none", and there may be some truth to what you say.
You are correct. I actually meant to say "most" but said "none" for some reason.
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Old March 17, 2013, 06:44 PM   #37
t45
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BigDinFl,I'm the original OP. I have dealt with LGS,s in my hometown for 25yrs. They have not raised their prices to the point this Tennessee gun shop has. To suggest I don't understand business is plain foolish. I understand shops needing to make money and the struggles they and all of us are going thru. To suggest that we wait until its to late to restock our ammo requirements is just plain wrong. I have enough loaded ammo and reloading supplies to get me thru all this. I see your from Fla and so am I, originally. When a hurricane rolls thru and all water and power is knocked out, are you going to say to the guys selling water for $10 a gallon or gas stations charging $7 a gallon for gas, "Oh their just trying to make money". You suggest if you don't like the prices, don't buy there. Maybe if you read my thread completely, instead of going on the attack, you would have seen that I didn't. My point is that we all need to stick together and refuse to pay these crazy prices and remember the shops that are taking advantage. And support the shops that are treating their customers fair with all your business.
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Old March 17, 2013, 06:59 PM   #38
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If there was a real free market you might be able to order a 1911 on Amazon and have it shipped to your house, and all sorts of stores would sell guns just like they sell pocket knives. The only reason dedicated guns and ammo stores can exist is because the government forces people to buy their guns from people with a special license.
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Old March 17, 2013, 07:00 PM   #39
Brian Pfleuger
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You really should watch the video in post #26.
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Old March 17, 2013, 07:03 PM   #40
shuler13
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LGS Ripoff!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Brian Pfleuger View Post
You really should watch the video in post #26.
I think you put too much faith in that video.
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Old March 17, 2013, 07:03 PM   #41
Glenn E. Meyer
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That's a great point. If gun laws were wiped away, then Mom and pop stores for generic items would vanish.

You would have specialty stores and smiths around.

The big box store prices would drop significantly.

That's why LGS's sometime support gun show bans. Happened here in San Antonio a few years ago.
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Old March 17, 2013, 07:08 PM   #42
Brian Pfleuger
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Quote:
Originally Posted by shuler13 View Post
I think you put too much faith in that video.
My faith is in Free Market concepts, which the video illustrates brilliantly. What I have NO faith in is the governments ability to know what's good for me better than I do nor their ability to execute their promises nor that their intentions are as righteous as they would have us believe, if they can deliver. They're the source of all this "gouging" nonsense, ultimately.
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Old March 17, 2013, 07:10 PM   #43
hardworker
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On one hand the higher prices are annoying, but on the other hand, he is doing us a favor. Walmart, with their low prices, makes an attractive stop for people trying to buy it all up and resell at higher (outrageous) prices. By jacking their prices up, they're hurting the gougers by cutting into their margins.
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Old March 17, 2013, 07:43 PM   #44
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Really, another thread about "price gouging"??

Some remedial free market economics classes are if order
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Old March 17, 2013, 07:58 PM   #45
Justice06RR
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I've also seen this in my area. One shop is selling used GI mags for $50 each, while another is selling new Pmags for $27.

Tell me where the sense in that is.

Obviously I won't buy from the shop that's selling the used mags for $50.
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Old March 17, 2013, 08:01 PM   #46
shuler13
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LGS Ripoff!

It makes some logical connections but also makes some assumptions that are not consistent for every situation.

I'll start with the storm - insulin - refrigerator thing. Insulin is fine out of a refrigerator for a month. But people often get a three month supply at a time, so we can move on. Power outages don't last long, maybe a couple of weeks in extreme cases.

Comparing a generator shortage in a power outage is different than an ammo shortage. Power is a utility. Shooting by and large is a hobby. There is a difference between supplying a utility and supplying equipment for a hobby. Knowing that the run on firearms plus a politically induced panic has strained ammo supply, the opportunists are now buying available supply and reselling. It's not like a natural event has lead to a shortage of brass. People created this demand. The suppliers will adjust and prices will go down as shelves are reapplied. Until then this is immoral gouging. This is taking advantage of people that don't know better or other people's panic. You still have what the video pointed out as a system where the only people that get supplied at a fair price are those that get there first at stores that aren't raising prices. And if those that got there first used the product, I would be fine. But it's not. Its advantageous people reselling for a profit. This is removing supply where people that would use it typically look and then increase the cost for their own gain.

And the storm scenario relies on a regional differential where other regions would bring in more supply bringing prices down. This shortage isn't regional. It's national.

A better solution (if it were possible) would limit purchases for those that use until production catches up. Combined with strict punishment for the individual gougers and resellers.

As a business, I understand the need for inventory and if a store is only getting a fraction of their replenishment, then a modest increase in price to keep the lights on and pay employees is expected. If your store needs to sell 100 boxes of ammo a day to pay the staff, and you only get 25 boxes a day in, then I would see why a store might need to increase profit margins on what they do have to sell. Keep in mind, these are the same stores whose sales skyrocketed in November and December. A little foresight would have put some money away to keep things going while re-supply was going to slow.

Economic theory is just that. The real world doesn't always work in a vacuum. Theory works for the moment. You have to see the long term picture. Customers have a memory and they don't like getting doinked. When they needed something most and you charged them triple or more ($250 for a brick of 22) they'll keep that in mind. A store that does that will force their customer base to look elsewhere as if B&M gun stores didn't have enough problems keeping customers as is.

A store gouging is doing it wrong. They are taking advantage and it is immoral. I don't care what that video says. Limit the sales if you need to. A short term premium if you need to. But don't take advantage. And to those of you individual entrepreneurs standing in line at Walmart when the truck comes in then heading to the gunshow and earn a ridiculous profit are just wrong.

The better solution for people is to help each other out while times are lean and return the favor when we are flush with supplies in a few months. That's what should have happened in the video. The guy should have been able to find a person that had a generator and asked for a favor "please refrigerate my sick kids meds".
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Old March 17, 2013, 08:03 PM   #47
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Think I know the store. They had Glock mags for $60 each. That is more than I paid during the last "AWB" period. They can keep them. Also charging full retail on many guns or even higher. Don't even ask me about AR's....
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Old March 17, 2013, 08:16 PM   #48
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Charging unfairly high prices for food and other items necessary for survival in an emergency situation is gouging. None of us are likely to die if we cannot afford to buy a box of bullets.
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Old March 17, 2013, 08:58 PM   #49
Brian Pfleuger
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Quote:
Originally Posted by shuler13
It makes some logical connections but also makes some assumptions that are not consistent for every situation.

I'll start with the storm - insulin - refrigerator thing. Insulin is fine out of a refrigerator for a month. But people often get a three month supply at a time, so we can move on. Power outages don't last long, maybe a couple of weeks in extreme cases.
One, it's an example. Proof of concept. The subject being insulin is an example.

Two, tell the folks on Long Island that were without power for near 2 months after the last Nor'Easter, that "power outages don't last"

Third, even the power outage is an example. Proof of concept. It doesn't have to be generators or insulin. It's the over-arching concept that matters, not the specifics. Picking apart the specifics of the analogy of the generator and insulin is to completely miss the whole point. It applies to ammunition just as easily.



Quote:
Originally Posted by shuler13
Comparing a generator shortage in a power outage is different than an ammo shortage. Power is a utility. Shooting by and large is a hobby. There is a difference between supplying a utility and supplying equipment for a hobby. Knowing that the run on firearms plus a politically induced panic has strained ammo supply, the opportunists are now buying available supply and reselling. It's not like a natural event has lead to a shortage of brass. People created this demand. The suppliers will adjust and prices will go down as shelves are reapplied. Until then this is immoral gouging. This is taking advantage of people that don't know better or other people's panic. You still have what the video pointed out as a system where the only people that get supplied at a fair price are those that get there first at stores that aren't raising prices. And if those that got there first used the product, I would be fine. But it's not. Its advantageous people reselling for a profit. This is removing supply where people that would use it typically look and then increase the cost for their own gain.

And the storm scenario relies on a regional differential where other regions would bring in more supply bringing prices down. This shortage isn't regional. It's national.

A better solution (if it were possible) would limit purchases for those that use until production catches up. Combined with strict punishment for the individual gougers and resellers.

As a business, I understand the need for inventory and if a store is only getting a fraction of their replenishment, then a modest increase in price to keep the lights on and pay employees is expected. If your store needs to sell 100 boxes of ammo a day to pay the staff, and you only get 25 boxes a day in, then I would see why a store might need to increase profit margins on what they do have to sell. Keep in mind, these are the same stores whose sales skyrocketed in November and December. A little foresight would have put some money away to keep things going while re-supply was going to slow.

Economic theory is just that. The real world doesn't always work in a vacuum. Theory works for the moment. You have to see the long term picture. Customers have a memory and they don't like getting doinked. When they needed something most and you charged them triple or more ($250 for a brick of 22) they'll keep that in mind. A store that does that will force their customer base to look elsewhere as if B&M gun stores didn't have enough problems keeping customers as is.

A store gouging is doing it wrong. They are taking advantage and it is immoral. I don't care what that video says. Limit the sales if you need to. A short term premium if you need to. But don't take advantage. And to those of you individual entrepreneurs standing in line at Walmart when the truck comes in then heading to the gunshow and earn a ridiculous profit are just wrong.

The better solution for people is to help each other out while times are lean and return the favor when we are flush with supplies in a few months. That's what should have happened in the video. The guy should have been able to find a person that had a generator and asked for a favor "please refrigerate my sick kids meds".
There is ZERO moral consideration on pricing ammunition. None. Zero. Nada.

First of all, the sellers set an ASKING price. They have absolutely no power to set the selling price. They're making a suggestion.

The BUYERS set the SELLING price.

I can ask $500 for a box of 50 22LR cartridges. Is that immoral? Nope. Some guy walks in the shop and says "What are you!? Freakin' Nuts!? No way am I paying $500 for that!"

He doesn't buy it. Hm. I guess I, the seller, didn't set a selling price, did I? It didn't sell.

He goes next door and buys it for $5.

What do I, wishing to sell, HAVE to do? What am I FORCED to do, by the buyer?

I am forced to lower my ASKING price until it matches someones BUYING price. The buyer, the one who CONTROLS pricing.

Now the shop next door is out of ammo. The buyer can't get it for $5 anymore. I the seller, will ask $10. Will the buyer pay it?

WHO KNOWS!

What I do know is that the seller can not CONTROL the price. The buyer buys or does not. If he does not, the seller either lowers his price or does not sell the item. The power lies with the BUYER.

I can't believe that people think there should be "strict punishment" for people selling ammunition and guns at some certain price. That is positively disgusting. Completely contrary to the American system. Free market ideas. Absolutely asinine.
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Old March 18, 2013, 01:12 AM   #50
shuler13
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LGS Ripoff!

I see firearms enthusiasts as a community. As such it is immoral to screw your neighbor.

If I take from the supply when times are lean, therefore making the lean times leaner, in an effort to benefit at the expense of those without, it's immoral.
Your screwing a member of the community.

If I happen to already own when the supply gets lean and sell at a premium that's a different story. In this respect you aren't making the problem worse.

I don't have a problem of people selling guns and ammo for a profit. I do have a problem with people exacerbating the issue for a few bucks. The bigger downside to the community is that we have a bunch of new shooters trying to explore what we already enjoy. If they get hooked, that benefits the whole. If they get turned off before they get into shooting routines, we miss the opportunity of gaining membership and support.

I know the example in the video was an example but I believe the different situations are different. There is a difference in gouging essentials and gouging hobbies. There is a difference when the problems are regional and alternatives are available.

When the supply catches up, and it will, there will be many unhappy people with a sour taste in their mouth about how quickly people raked each other over the coals for something as simple as ammo and magazines.
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