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Old March 4, 2013, 07:18 PM   #1
Cy4ka
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Archagnel Mosin stock

You all seen this yet?:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EUeR4QhBs6U

<iframe width="560" height="315" src="http://www.youtube.com/embed/EUeR4QhBs6U" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>
Won't embed but...


I kinda want one. Why didn't they just make it use Vepr mags though?
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Old March 4, 2013, 07:44 PM   #2
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man, I am starting to get sick of this stock.

in all fairness I guess this discussion hasn't been around the block here on the firing line all that much but on the SKS boards in the C&R section it's been a nonstop discussion ever since shot show.

this is just my personal take on the matter so please don't take this too close to heart.

the mosin nagant is one of the crudest designs in history. the tool marks are ugly, the bolts are stiff, the handles are too short to offer any real leverage and the leaf sights are horrible. add to that, the fact that the soldiers that used them were uneducated, untrained conscripts, trying to 'wing it' when it came to maintenance so bores were carved into ovals by steel cleaning rods. add shot out oval bores, crude designs and then the fact that most ammo you can get is either inaccurate and corrosive surplus or just plain inaccurate wolf/tula and it's THEN you want to put a tacticool sniper stock on it?

the only real thing that it has going for it is a 10 round box mag which actually sounds pretty appealing but the overall concept is just flawed. if they would have tried to go with a standard sporter style stock and kept the 10 round mag then it would have a little more practical application as far as I'm concerned but as is, it's a pretty poor idea.

but that's just me
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Old March 4, 2013, 08:22 PM   #3
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I guess that if I had an MN with a really boogered up stock and had nothing better to do with it, I'd give it a try. It's just hard for me to get into the plastic stock because they've got no character to me. But I also know that there are plenty of folks out there who really like it, so there you go.
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Old March 4, 2013, 08:38 PM   #4
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It isn't like an MN has ever won an Olympic event or anything...

YOu could build a nice rifle off the action, or spend time accurizing what is there, and this stock would be a great part of such a plan.
Most peopke will probably throw an off the shelf cosmoline stuffed firing pin gun in them and it will be a a waste of money.
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Old March 5, 2013, 01:15 PM   #5
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Yeah we've heard about em. I'm not interested in one of them though. I leave my old crude war horse mosins as they are. Except for a few accuracy enhancing modifications. I LIKE WOOD AND STEEL. I did the whole plastic stock thing to my first enfield, which was a beautiful rifle to start with ( which I think that today, but didn't when I was 14).
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Old March 5, 2013, 01:30 PM   #6
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I'm not against it, I have my share of plastic furniture on some of my guns. But I don't see where it improves anything. Get good with stripper clips and the original mag is fine. It's a bolt action and not the smoothest one at that. I just don't see where a ten round mag is necessary. The rest of the stock doesn't do anything at all for me.

He should have made this stock for something easier to scope IMO.
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Old March 5, 2013, 04:10 PM   #7
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I did the whole plastic stock thing to my first enfield, which was a beautiful rifle to start with ( which I think that today, but didn't when I was 14).
not to sidetrack the conversation but my younger brother has a ramline plastic stock on his longbrach no4. he assembled the entire gun from a huge tack of parts and couldn't find a wood stock that fit properly so he went with the synth. it's not the prettiest gun around but it'll keep up with my savage no4 all day long. his is lighter and more practical for hunting with and he uses it for that quite often...
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Old March 5, 2013, 04:34 PM   #8
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Trying to walk a fine line here because I make stocks for the Mosin...and don't want to be seen as critical...

Without getting into the aesthetics, or ergonomics of the stock itself, I just think they've eliminated a large potential market by designing a stock that can't utilize a bent bolt for a "modern" low profile scope mount like the ATI, Rock Solid, or JMeck. This stock is meant to keep the rifle with it's iron sights.

The stock cannot be inletted for a bent bolt because of the hardware for the DBM.

They apparently felt a DBM was a bigger deal than being able to mount a scope.

For me, no optic means it's a non-starter. And no offense to the guys that like pistol scopes on rifles, it's not for me...

I just don't get the big deal with the DBM, but then I never have even with our long-range precision rifles. I'm more about practical, than "tacticool".

And while the Mosin is certainly not a precision rifle, one with a tight action and good barrel CAN shoot minute of angle with handloads (esp. when sporterized)- I'm not the only guy that has one that does...
And a "good one" can make a fun project. Don't underestimate them- the Russians won the Olympic Biathlon with one in '76...and the Finns still use a modern version of it as a sniper rifle- the TKIV 85.
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Old March 5, 2013, 04:46 PM   #9
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I personally hate the ATI bent bolt that requires inletting but the ones available through Ebay that follow pu profiles shouldn't require inletting unless the stock is too bulky even for that...

unless I'm mistaken... the rear sight LER scope mounts would still work but this type of stock and that heavy of a finished rifle would be horrible as a scout rifle...
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Old March 5, 2013, 06:20 PM   #10
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I prefer to leave mine looking like this.




Mine must be defective from the way people say how crappy they shoot.



3 shots at 50 yards with iron sights in heavy wind that was moving the target. Shot in a semi seated position using my knee to rest my elbow on. It could do better with someone that has better eye sight, and is steadier than I am.
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Old March 5, 2013, 07:30 PM   #11
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Mine must be defective from the way people say how crappy they shoot.



3 shots at 50 yards with iron sights in heavy wind that was moving the target. Shot in a semi seated position using my knee to rest my elbow on. It could do better with someone that has better eye sight, and is steadier than I am.
is that supposed to be comical?
you are shooting from a non stable platform, with heavy outside influences further increasing instability and shooting at a moving target and then you think that because your shots randomly landed near eachother at 50 yards that it is accurate? 100 yards is the standard, non moving targets, stable shooting surfaces, and little outside interferance is how you calculate accuracy. you pretty much voided your entire argument.

even if that group was done in the specified conditions, that 1 1/4 inch group at 100 yards equates to 2 1/2 MOA, not exactly a tack driver.
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Last edited by tahunua001; March 5, 2013 at 08:00 PM.
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Old March 5, 2013, 07:39 PM   #12
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Those are some really odd looking bullet holes...almost like they're keyholing....
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Old March 7, 2013, 12:56 PM   #13
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Quote:
is that supposed to be comical?
Well, sarcastic, at least. I think he was stating that he was getting good accuracy (actually, a firearm is consistent, a shooter is accurate) in less then ideal circumstances from a rifle that 'people say how crappy [it] shoots'
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Old March 7, 2013, 03:06 PM   #14
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Quote:
Quote:
you are shooting from a non stable platform, with heavy outside influences further increasing instability and shooting at a moving target and then you think that because your shots randomly landed near eachother at 50 yards that it is accurate?
You negated your entire argument all by your self. With those conditions that is excellent accuracy from a surplus military rifle!
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Old March 7, 2013, 06:21 PM   #15
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If that's only three bullets he clearly is keyholing - at 50 yards. Talking of accuracy either way if you can't make round holes is meaningless, at 100 yards those wouldn't be on paper.
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Old March 7, 2013, 09:07 PM   #16
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I'm leaning toward that is more than 3 bullets. More like a few dang near in the same hole. Won't know till he chimes in. But I say that is excellent for an old warhorse. Some of you guys LOVE to pounce all over someone for being proud of how well their Mosin shoots. Just suck it up buttercup, and ADMIT you love em just as much as the rest of us!!!
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Old March 7, 2013, 09:28 PM   #17
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FWIW, I own 2 mosin nagants. with the exception of a MAS36 they are the least accurate milsurps I own.
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Old March 8, 2013, 08:18 PM   #18
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That was not key holeing at all. Two shots were touching. The target board, and paper target got wet the night before I went to the range. It was rainy and crappy for three days.

With the iron sights shooting for the smallest groups I limit to 50 yards. At 100 yards I would most likely get 3 to 4 MOA out of a match rifle with my eye sight. At 100 yards I hit minute of torso most times.

This was 8 shots with my hand loads on a calm day at 50 yards from a sand bag front rest with the stock on my shoulder.

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Old March 11, 2013, 04:01 PM   #19
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i think i would pick one up just for a fun little project....that is if they figure out how to get a bent bolt and a scope on the bugger. they are taking pre-orders this friday....think ill wait on the 200$ stock until they have all the t's crossed. my project was going to be "the poor mans sniper rifle" then i started thinking about the cost. $100 for a mosin (but ill find one with a nasty stock and try to get a bargain), ill bend the bolt myself, 200$ for the stock, 25$ for a 10 round mag, 90$ for a Timney trigger, found a cool no drill no tap mount for 75$ that is on its way already, and ill put a 200$ 4X12 Nikon Prostaf on it probably. coming to a grand total of: $690.....so much for the "poor man sniper rifle" but what the heck! ill have the ugliest Mosin ever!
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Old March 13, 2013, 12:15 PM   #20
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Awesome!!

I want it so bad!! I hope it doesn't cost too much!!!
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Old March 13, 2013, 12:44 PM   #21
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i think i would pick one up just for a fun little project....that is if they figure out how to get a bent bolt and a scope on the bugger. they are taking pre-orders this friday....think ill wait on the 200$ stock until they have all the t's crossed. my project was going to be "the poor mans sniper rifle" then i started thinking about the cost. $100 for a mosin (but ill find one with a nasty stock and try to get a bargain), ill bend the bolt myself, 200$ for the stock, 25$ for a 10 round mag, 90$ for a Timney trigger, found a cool no drill no tap mount for 75$ that is on its way already, and ill put a 200$ 4X12 Nikon Prostaf on it probably. coming to a grand total of: $690.....so much for the "poor man sniper rifle" but what the heck! ill have the ugliest Mosin ever!
I tried the same thing you did pretty much. the thing is a POS and I didn't worry myself with nodrill type stuff so it's nice and mangled but yeah... for the price of the mosin I could have bought a weatherby vanguard and my 300 WBY mag vanguard already has a 4-12 prostaff on it... great elk gun
it's cool to build yourself something that not a lot of people have and it does add a certain satisfaction seeing what all your hard work brings but odds are it will probably never be as good as a quality, factory new rifle.

my stock 91/30 gets a lot more trigger time and even without a scope seems to hit stuff easier at range.
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Old March 13, 2013, 07:26 PM   #22
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the mosin nagant is one of the crudest designs in history. the tool marks are ugly, the bolts are stiff, the handles are too short to offer any real leverage and the leaf sights are horrible. add to that, the fact that the soldiers that used them were uneducated, untrained conscripts, trying to 'wing it' when it came to maintenance so bores were carved into ovals by steel cleaning rods. add shot out oval bores, crude designs and then the fact that most ammo you can get is either inaccurate and corrosive surplus or just plain inaccurate wolf/tula and it's THEN you want to put a tacticool sniper stock on it?
I don't really know what you expect from a rifle designed in the 1800's that was mass-produced by the millions.

The rifle works well and it shoots a very capable round. It was given to mostly untrained soldiers so MOA accuracy was not required since they cannot shoot it to begin with. you cannot expect it to be as nice as a $1k+ Remington 700...
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Old March 13, 2013, 08:17 PM   #23
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I don't really know what you expect from a rifle designed in the 1800's that was mass-produced by the millions.

The rifle works well and it shoots a very capable round. It was given to mostly untrained soldiers so MOA accuracy was not required since they cannot shoot it to begin with. you cannot expect it to be as nice as a $1k+ Remington 700...
you know other rifle designs that were designed in the 1800s that are not half bad designs and blow the mosin nagant out of the water?
winchester 1894
Mauser 1896
Mauser 1898
AND...
the Krag rifle

all were designed before 1900 and none are as crude, stiff, and poorly machined. also there were some countries that made the mosin design half passable, by paying closer attention to detail, machining to tighter tolerances and rejecting anything that didn't meet strict accuracy standards. russia and china never did any of those things so the vast majority of mosin nagants(made by those two countries) are exactly as described. there is no comparison whether you compare them to rifles made that same year or rifles designed in the same decade...

a 1943 91/30 is not anywhere near the quality as a 1943 1903A3, nor is it the same quality as a K98K, Enfield no4, a M38(swede), or type 99 Arisaka... the MN goes bang, and served nobly for the better part of a century but there is not a person alive that can fire all of those rifles side by side and say with complete objectivity that the mosin nagant design is not at the bottom of that list.
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Old March 14, 2013, 04:38 PM   #24
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FWIW, the Mosin-Nagant, action re-barreled for 6.5 x 54R...won the biathlon in the Olympics in '76 for the Soviet Union.

Granted, the actions are sloppy and crude. But it's not difficult to get a good one to shoot minute of angle (handloads of course) with the usual bedding/pillars/Timney yada yada.

Put a match barrel on it, and a good action will shoot sub-minute. These actions can be trued just like any other. Point is, it's not worth paying a smith to do it, but they are a fun DIY project.

I know mine gets some looks at the range when I'm banging a 10" gong with it at 565 yards. It's only when they see the telltale mag that they realize it's a Mosin.
Think I'm gonna chop that sucker down! I single-load at the bench, anyway.
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Old March 14, 2013, 09:56 PM   #25
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you know other rifle designs that were designed in the 1800s that are not half bad designs and blow the mosin nagant out of the water?
winchester 1894
Mauser 1896
Mauser 1898
AND...
the Krag rifle

all were designed before 1900 and none are as crude, stiff, and poorly machined. also there were some countries that made the mosin design half passable, by paying closer attention to detail, machining to tighter tolerances and rejecting anything that didn't meet strict accuracy standards. russia and china never did any of those things so the vast majority of mosin nagants(made by those two countries) are exactly as described. there is no comparison whether you compare them to rifles made that same year or rifles designed in the same decade...
I have not handled those other rifles you mentioned above, so I cannot comment on that. I'm sure there are many better rifles than the Mosin. But can you post the price of those rifles above?
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